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 The Role of DE Beasts in 8th

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ligolski
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PostSubject: The Role of DE Beasts in 8th   Wed Jun 07 2017, 04:58

Hello Everyone,

So with leaks in hand, and my actual copy of the book on its way, I've started to theorize on list building (but of course!). I've played a couple games of 8th with my Marines against Chaos Marines and found that it is important to plan for the T1 charge (of course) and the inevitable psychic deluge of smites. This brings me to the point of this post.

Beasts. (Not the masters)

Khymerae, and razorwing flocks give us a reasonable ability to help protect our army from these powerful powers and attacks in the game. I'm going to throw out Clawed fiends for this screening tactic as they are simply too expensive points wise.

Khymerae are an excellent choice in soaking up T1 melee units if you bubble wrap exposed areas of your army properly. With a 5++ they might just hold out and hang onto the unit and not let it consolidate. Furthermore, if you have the initiative (first turn), a solid movement of 10" can mean you may be able to get into combat to tie up that heavy unit and force it to fall back and lose out on shooting. Khymerae are dirt cheap at 2 meltabombs a piece and have a min squad size of 2.

Razorwing flocks are a hidden gem in my opinion (opinion to be validated with play testing at some point!). They cost between 1 and 2 meltabombs and have 4 wounds! Perfect for soaking up smites. Better yet, you can field these in units of 1...also perfect as a cheap way to complete fast attack choices for the brigade detachment (need those command points!).

What do you guys think?

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: The Role of DE Beasts in 8th   Wed Jun 07 2017, 06:34

Just remember Beastmaster is an Elite, he can take 1 unit of Beasts for a free slot, each Beast is a different unit, Flocks, Khymeras, Claw Fiends.

In MSU lists they are good, in Kill points they are terrible. They are good Anti chargers and turn 1 chargers as well.

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wormfromhell
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PostSubject: Re: The Role of DE Beasts in 8th   Wed Jun 07 2017, 07:49

why did you use meltabombs as your unit for points?

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: The Role of DE Beasts in 8th   Wed Jun 07 2017, 09:07

@wormfromhell wrote:
why did you use meltabombs as your unit for points?

It's something that a lot of people did/do in order to get around rules about posting exact points values, which is a possible infringement on GW copyright/trademark/IP/whateverthehellelsetheirlawyersclaim. As long as you knew that melta bombs were 5 points and pretty much everything in recent editions (prior to 8e) was a multiple of 5, then it was always clear without breaking rules.

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mynamelegend
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PostSubject: Re: The Role of DE Beasts in 8th   Wed Jun 07 2017, 09:34

Let's be clear: This is a thing people do because they don't understand information theory or law.
This sort of commonly well-known pseudo-encryption of information will not protect any person or forum from copyright infringement or any other legal repercussions. It's a pointless charade with absolutely no basis in reality, but a lot of people still do it. Honestly as far as I can tell its real utility is to mark you as an "insider" in the community.
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: The Role of DE Beasts in 8th   Wed Jun 07 2017, 09:55

Does anybody know a cheaper substitute to Khymera and those birds?
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: The Role of DE Beasts in 8th   Wed Jun 07 2017, 10:07

@mynamelegend wrote:
Let's be clear: This is a thing people do because they don't understand information theory or law.
This sort of commonly well-known pseudo-encryption of information will not protect any person or forum from copyright infringement or any other legal repercussions. It's a pointless charade with absolutely no basis in reality, but a lot of people still do it. Honestly as far as I can tell its real utility is to mark you as an "insider" in the community.

Well here is the thing, all websites that allow it like his example dont get GW down there throats. Website where players put weapon/unit point breakdowns did.

Players been doing this and similar work around for years and it is working. So why does it matter in a court after months and 10K+ dollars per week they win?

GW doesnt care to go after websites that dont post points, they go after ones that are posting full points and rules.

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PostSubject: Re: The Role of DE Beasts in 8th   Wed Jun 07 2017, 10:14

@amishprn86 wrote:
@mynamelegend wrote:
Let's be clear: This is a thing people do because they don't understand information theory or law.
This sort of commonly well-known pseudo-encryption of information will not protect any person or forum from copyright infringement or any other legal repercussions. It's a pointless charade with absolutely no basis in reality, but a lot of people still do it. Honestly as far as I can tell its real utility is to mark you as an "insider" in the community.

Well here is the thing, all websites that allow it like his example dont get GW down there throats. Website where players put weapon/unit point breakdowns did.

Players been doing this and similar work around for years and it is working. So why does it matter  in a court after months and 10K+ dollars per week they win?

GW doesnt care to go after websites that dont post points, they go after ones that are posting full points and rules.

oK thanks for the 40k history lesson.

I don't understand why GW would dislike the posting of point values or find them a copyright infringement, but hey. The Games Workshop is a shy and strange creature, little about is known to science, or their playerbase. Some say that they are money-guzzling profit hunters, while others whisper that they have the best models on the market...
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PostSubject: Re: The Role of DE Beasts in 8th   Wed Jun 07 2017, 10:22

If all the points and rules are easily available then there will be no need to buy the rule books.

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PostSubject: Re: The Role of DE Beasts in 8th   Wed Jun 07 2017, 12:19

Please stay on topic folks.

I use space wolf dogs for my khym. and I have the actual flocks. If you search around you will find plenty of conversion ideas. You will definately get hurt using these in kill point games...but then again you are playing DE, you probably already lost KP.

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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: The Role of DE Beasts in 8th   Wed Jun 07 2017, 12:36

I hope kill points are not that bad in Maelstrom of War missions.
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: The Role of DE Beasts in 8th   Wed Jun 07 2017, 13:49

That Clawed Fiends are better than Grots. Need more? (:
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: The Role of DE Beasts in 8th   Wed Jun 07 2017, 13:54

@Cerve wrote:
That Clawed Fiends are better than Grots. Need more? (:

I wouldn't say they're better. They have slightly better stats overall with more attacks but Grots hit on a 3+ rather than 4+, have better weapons, a 5++ save and PfP, which I think puts them ahead of Clawed Fiends.

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Imateria
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PostSubject: Re: The Role of DE Beasts in 8th   Wed Jun 07 2017, 14:01

@CptMetal wrote:
I hope kill points are not that bad in Maelstrom of War missions.
Name me a Maelstrom mission that uses killpoints?

Personally I'm already considering using squads of Khymeara to screen and take overwatch whilst the Clawed Fiends get in and deal damage. I'm not sold on Razorwing flocks, T2 and a 7+ save means they'll drop to Lasguns and bolters like flies and should they survive to get into combat they're WS5+ and S2 so even with 8 attacks each they'll do almost nothing, Khymeara are far better for that role as they can at least do something when they get into combat.
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PostSubject: Re: The Role of DE Beasts in 8th   Wed Jun 07 2017, 14:06

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@Cerve wrote:
That Clawed Fiends are better than Grots. Need more? (:

I wouldn't say they're better. They have slightly better stats overall with more attacks but Grots hit on a 3+ rather than 4+, have better weapons, a 5++ save and PfP, which I think puts them ahead of Clawed Fiends.
I think it's the mortal wounds Grots can dish out with the Flesh Gauntlets that really put them ahead, but I think CF's have better synergies, re-rolls to hit and using the Beastmasters Ld for Moral is probably better than the Grots +1T from an Haemonculus, which would only be situationally useful.

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PostSubject: Re: The Role of DE Beasts in 8th   Wed Jun 07 2017, 15:12

@Imateria wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:
@Cerve wrote:
That Clawed Fiends are better than Grots. Need more? (:

I wouldn't say they're better. They have slightly better stats overall with more attacks but Grots hit on a 3+ rather than 4+, have better weapons, a 5++ save and PfP, which I think puts them ahead of Clawed Fiends.
I think it's the mortal wounds Grots can dish out with the Flesh Gauntlets that really put them ahead, but I think CF's have better synergies, re-rolls to hit and using the Beastmasters Ld for Moral is probably better than the Grots +1T from an Haemonculus, which would only be situationally useful.


Plus, Fiends are not transport dependent.

Anyway I will not rely so much into the Gauntlet. I will use it only when facing T5+ guys, or the normal attack (can't remember the name) still better for me.
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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: The Role of DE Beasts in 8th   Wed Jun 07 2017, 15:39

I think razorwink flocks are amazing. They are twice as good as kabalites at killing vehicles XD Cheap enough that you can spam them, surround vehicles and people cannot disembark. And with 4 wounds roughly twice as though as t4 against small arms fire and anyone wasting tankbusting shots at them is just silly. (t4 needs 2 hits, razorwing flocks need 4.8 hits): wyches with a t boost in cc with their 4++ still die faster than the trusty razorwing flock.

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ligolski
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PostSubject: Re: The Role of DE Beasts in 8th   Wed Jun 07 2017, 15:47

If your opponent wastes shots on them, then I think you are winning! They are cheaper than a whole lot of things with 4 wounds which is awesome given the the new to wound chart and no more instant death.

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PostSubject: Re: The Role of DE Beasts in 8th   Thu Jun 08 2017, 02:19

@|Meavar wrote:
I think razorwink flocks are amazing. They are twice as good as kabalites at killing vehicles XD Cheap enough that you can spam them, surround vehicles and people cannot disembark. And with 4 wounds roughly twice as though as t4 against small arms fire and anyone wasting tankbusting shots at them is just silly. (t4 needs 2 hits, razorwing flocks need 4.8 hits): wyches with a t boost in cc with their 4++ still die faster than the trusty razorwing flock.


Do you have Mathhammer to prove the validity of Razorwing flocks?

I'm really interesting in running beasts but Razorwing flocks appear bad on paper.
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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: The Role of DE Beasts in 8th   Thu Jun 08 2017, 07:24

Mathhammer sure:
bolter shots needed to kill x points
Razorwing
4 wounds t2 means 4.8 hits = 1.46 punten for each bolter hit
Kabalite
1 wound 5+ save 1.5 t3 means 2.25 hits = 3.11 pt/hit
Raider with dark lance
10 wounds 4+ save 20 t5 means 60 hits = 1.92 pt/hit
Wrack with heamy
1 wound 5++ t5 means 4.5 hits = 2.44 pt/hit

Offensive of course they are not that good against t4+ but against guards they are still great.
Against t3 with a 5+
I left all the buffs out this time, no rerolls because of beastmaster/succubus, and no +1 to hit for pfp (which increases their killyness by roughly 25%) or wych drugs (33% increase)
8 attacks 2.67 hits 0.89 wounds 0.59 after saves = 11.8pt/wound
kabalyte shooting short range/ wych melee without buff / wrack melee without buff
2 shots/attacks 1.33 hits 0.66 wounds 0.44 after saves = 15.75 pt kab 20.25 pt wych 24.75 wrack
These last numbers become slightly better
Well except maybe against tanks (t7 3+)?
8 attacks 2.67 hits 0.44 wounds 0.15 after saves = 47.25pt/wound
kabalyte
2 shots 1.33 hits 0.22 wounds 0.07 after saves = 94.5 pt/wound
wyches with s4
2 attacks 1.33 hits 0.44 wounds 0.15 after saves = 60.75
For tanks birds are still much better then our other troop options. But it cannot beat anti tank weapons
ravager
3 shots 2 hits 1.33 wounds 4.67 damage = 24.6
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PostSubject: Re: The Role of DE Beasts in 8th   Thu Jun 08 2017, 08:43

I picked up a set of AoS dire wolves to use as Khymerea. The basic plan is to see how they and hellions do as a sort of a first wave or to bubble wrap if need be.
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PostSubject: Re: The Role of DE Beasts in 8th   Thu Jun 08 2017, 09:25

@CptMetal wrote:
Does anybody know a cheaper substitute to Khymera and those birds?

http://www.thedarkcity.net/t931-alternative-sources-for-dark-eldar-models

If you mean cheaper models. Personally I'm tempted to pick up a box of Zombicide: Murder Of Crowz. 15 bases for the price of 2 GW finecast bases. They are all monopose and the plastic is a nightmare to work with but they look better than the GW ones. And the price man. The price.
As for khymera I like the Barghest fiend from puppetswar. Not a lot cheaper but still cool.

I don't think they are meant to actually do any damage this edition. Even with the beastmaster reroll they struggle to do anything against MEQ ( one base does less than 0.5 wounds? ). And sure they will fold instantly to every ranged weapon in the game. But someone will have to waste their shooting on them unless they want their entire gunline charged. A full unit of 12 spaced out across the board is going to have a massive footprint and can either threaten to multicharge most of the other army, forcing them to deal with them first, or they can block any potential first turn charge as long as the attackers are on foot. They will probably not survive past turn one except inexperienced or unlucky opponents. Especially since they won't be immune to battleshock and the beastmaster only gives them LD7, dropping to 4 if he is sniped out. The pts cost of a full unit is pretty reasonable if you take in to consideration the point pr wound ratio. The biggest downside, except for the cost of the models, is the hassle of transporting and setting up all the models just to take them right off and put them back in the bag again.

TL:DR
Looks like everyone need chump blockers in 8th. Razorwings flocks might be our best option.
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RedRegicide
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PostSubject: Re: The Role of DE Beasts in 8th   Thu Jun 08 2017, 13:10

Is it better to have more MSU beasts so the opponent is forced to guess how much shooting to use, hopefully under or over estimating? Or not waste the slots?

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PostSubject: Re: The Role of DE Beasts in 8th   Thu Jun 08 2017, 18:39

It just occurred to me that I have a handful of 'nid stuff I can use as beasts. DE arenas capturing genestealers, ripper swarms, etc seems very fluffy, though the Haemis might have to do a little work on them first.

Using models for multiple things so you don't have to buy as much stuff FTW.

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PostSubject: Re: The Role of DE Beasts in 8th   Thu Jun 08 2017, 19:49

I used very old (metal) Tyranid Ripper Swarms as Razorwing Flocks.

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