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Hellstrom
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PostSubject: Wyches vs Wracks   Wed Jun 07 2017, 00:03

Again with no numbers (sorry guys). I've played a few games of 8th already with a mix of these units and I feel that Wracks pretty much outclass Wyches in every area, mainly of course, by adding a Haemy and making them T5. They are much harder to kill and don't (if at all) hit any softer. Why bother with Wyches at all?

Wracks are troops now, don't forget Wink
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Woozl
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs Wracks   Wed Jun 07 2017, 00:51

Have trouble with anything falling back?
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RedRegicide
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs Wracks   Wed Jun 07 2017, 01:26

Have you taken hydra gauntlets and power sword/agonisers? I found wyches to be pretty good. If you keep them in combat they have the 4++ which is nice, but wracks are defiantly more survivable

Drugs are nice, can kit out units for specific tasks

Also having a strength value is nice for T3 and lower. I often give my big blobs the +1 Str so they at least wound meq on a 4 like wracks

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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs Wracks   Wed Jun 07 2017, 08:00

@Hellstrom - I'm thinking the same thing.

Wracks look to be superior but i will try wyches at some point, with agonisers and hydra gauntlets and a succubus.
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Dark Elf Dave
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs Wracks   Wed Jun 07 2017, 08:26

Wracks have the coolest looking models...one of the reasons I wanted to play DE.

The question now is which is better in 8th out of Wracks, Wyches and Kabalites?
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs Wracks   Wed Jun 07 2017, 09:25

Troops dont matter anymore.

Wychs have a few things over Wracks, more -AP, 4++ (against certain units this is better b.c of high S/AP low model count units like Terminators) and Drugs to fit your needs.

Wracks are a bit more well rounded for sure, but you can for sure utilize the Wychs better in a TAC list.
I know he did the math, but what is better Wracks or Grots? (I thought it was grots).

From my play testing Kabals with some strong cc backups are good, heck my Kabal was killing Plague Marines in melee lol, thanks for PFP, cheap Agoniser and Blast Pistol in CC.

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wormfromhell
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs Wracks   Wed Jun 07 2017, 10:18

This is amazing! can you see, we are having a reasonably even debate about the validity of our troop choices! very rare.

The troop choices debate is an elusive creature, often appearing at the beginning of new editions, or when the elusive GW makes a balanced edition...
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Devilogical
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs Wracks   Wed Jun 07 2017, 10:28

@wormfromhell wrote:
This is amazing! can you see, we are having a reasonably even debate about the validity of our troop choices! very rare.

The troop choices debate is an elusive creature, often appearing at the beginning of new editions, or when the elusive GW makes a balanced edition...

Haha. Maybe it`s realy balanced edition after all Very Happy

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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs Wracks   Wed Jun 07 2017, 10:37

That kind of debate is what makes us stronger.

Personally I prefer witches because of the models but against high toughness enemies, I'd take wrack.
Wraiths, Nurgle units, big Tyranid stuff. Against everything else witches.

But to be honest, first I will try mandrake: pop up somewhere, soften the target by shooting and Assault it afterwards.

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Hellstrom
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs Wracks   Wed Jun 07 2017, 11:00

You say troops don't matter, but you do need them for all of the "larger" detachments. They will be required for some games.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs Wracks   Wed Jun 07 2017, 11:31

For really large games sure, but you can get those 3 command points and 0 troops still with 3 detachments if you already are using the 2 HQ's.

I was looking at a 3 detachment list for 2k that was all Trueborns, Talos, and 3 Fliers, it still gave me +3 command points with an Archon and a Haemonculus for my 2 HQ's

Yes its cool they are troops, not saying that isnt good, just saying with the objectives and how command points can stack, its not really as big of a deal now Smile

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Skulnbonz
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs Wracks   Wed Jun 07 2017, 12:37

Wracks outshine Wyches at almost every turn. If you want shooty- go with warriors. If you want good HTH- go with wracks (and they are tougher too!)

Sadly, though i was hoping otherwise, i feel my Wyches will never see the light of day in any competitive list... AGAIN.

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Demantiae
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs Wracks   Wed Jun 07 2017, 13:46

Wracks seem like a solid CC choice, with a little shooting thrown in there too. Good for sending to claim and hold an objective. Wyches seem more like a tool of finesse, they're good for locking things in combat, and staying in combat themselves and with drugs can be tailored to what you need them to do. I'd say on your Swiss Army Knife the Wracks are the big knife blade whilst the Wyshes are all the other gubbins you bring out as and when you need them, or just to impress your friends with their flashiness :-D

Warriors are straight up bargain basement shooting if you need more dakka.

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The Red King
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs Wracks   Wed Jun 07 2017, 13:52

I do believe the wyches are outclassed in melee as the numbers clearly showed, but I always found that sslyth fell behind grotesque in 7th if you ignored the formers shooting.

Now 4 splinter pistols and a blast pistol are not going to make wyches the winner, but if I'm not mistaken they are still cheaper and can perform well.

Also did the math factor a blast pistol? Hekatrix have the beast chance to use them thanks to the no escape rule and function similar to a single shot power fist.

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the_scotsman
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs Wracks   Thu Jun 08 2017, 11:36

Por que no Los dos?

2 5-man squads fit in a raider. Get a hexrifle/injector/osse squad and a Hydra/Ago/BP squad in a raider and benefit from the wracks toughness and the wyches no escape.
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs Wracks   Thu Jun 08 2017, 18:24

I still prefer Wyches, for the no retreat rule. And the 4++

AND the fact that they don't need any Hero to be good. Where Wracks needs an Haemonculus (that is not just a points matter, but that you need to cover him in CC. If he dies, Wracks becomes nearly useless).
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs Wracks   Thu Jun 08 2017, 21:46

He provides +1T, which really only affects S4/5 guns. They still rock a 5++ ALWAYS, which is crucial
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs Wracks   Thu Jun 08 2017, 22:30

@Leninade wrote:
He provides +1T, which really only affects S4/5 guns. They still rock a 5++ ALWAYS, which is crucial

Wyches still rock 4++ always, and is quite simple to put them into CC.

Plus they have more AP-1, and a twinlinked 5+ is better than a single 4+ (to wound).



I like theme both, but I find Wracks useful if you list for theme, where Wyches seems more "stand alone".
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs Wracks   Thu Jun 08 2017, 22:50

@Cerve wrote:
@Leninade wrote:
He provides +1T, which really only affects S4/5 guns. They still rock a 5++ ALWAYS, which is crucial

Wyches still rock 4++ always, and is quite simple to put them into CC.

Plus they have more AP-1, and a twinlinked 5+ is better than a single 4+ (to wound).



I like theme both, but I find Wracks useful if you list for theme, where Wyches seems more "stand alone".

It's not Always. It's only in the fight phase. Which mean they are vulnerable to the shooting round from pistol on the second turn of CC.
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs Wracks   Thu Jun 08 2017, 23:05

@Cerve wrote:


I like theme both, but I find Wracks useful if you list for theme, where Wyches seems more "stand alone".

The only time you will see a "stand alone" wych is when she was part of a squad of 20 that charged a unit that had a couple flamers for overwatch...

Wyches are once again an almost useless unit. Warriors are better. Wracks are better.

The entire wych cult was boned this edition.
60 point beastmasters. 60!
hellions and wyches die easily to any kind of shooting
reavers are way overpriced for what they do. their HTH was neutered beyond comprehension.

The only wych unit worth taking is the HQ, and that is situational at best.

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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs Wracks   Thu Jun 08 2017, 23:15

Not entirely sold on either IMO. More shooty options that look superior, or allied CC options.

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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs Wracks   Fri Jun 09 2017, 01:46

I was hoping the wrack would emerge from this new edition stronger and with renewed purpose. I'm really glad that's how it's actually playing out!

My one thought is that wyches would have been nice cheap units to suck up the drugs you DON'T want on the table so a Cult heavy army could take the drugs they wanted on all the other units.

Hellstrom, have you had much trouble keeping all your wracks within buff range of a haemonculus?
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs Wracks   Fri Jun 09 2017, 08:47

@dumpeal wrote:
@Cerve wrote:
@Leninade wrote:
He provides +1T, which really only affects S4/5 guns. They still rock a 5++ ALWAYS, which is crucial

Wyches still rock 4++ always, and is quite simple to put them into CC.

Plus they have more AP-1, and a twinlinked 5+ is better than a single 4+ (to wound).



I like theme both, but I find Wracks useful if you list for theme, where Wyches seems more "stand alone".

It's not Always. It's only in the fight phase. Which mean they are vulnerable to the shooting round from pistol on the second turn of CC.

Not enough to leave them at home
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs Wracks   Fri Jun 09 2017, 10:19

Wyches do have some significant advantages over Wracks, so I wouldn't call them worse:

- M8
- Combat drugs
- No escape
- 4+ invul in melee (which is where they will be 90% of the time)
- 1 pt cheaper
- Darklight Grenades/Phantasm Grenade Launcher
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Hellstrom
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PostSubject: Re: Wyches vs Wracks   Fri Jun 09 2017, 11:15

@Jimsolo wrote:
I was hoping the wrack would emerge from this new edition stronger and with renewed purpose.  I'm really glad that's how it's actually playing out!  

My one thought is that wyches would have been nice cheap units to suck up the drugs you DON'T want on the table so a Cult heavy army could take the drugs they wanted on all the other units.  

Hellstrom, have you had much trouble keeping all your wracks within buff range of a haemonculus?

In the games that they have worked, i.e. actually made it into combat, I've had no problem at all. It's only the unit don't forget, you don't have to keep every model in range. The Haemy is in the same combat as the Wracks, so with the 3" pile in, you generally get to push them together each fight phase.
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