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 Emerging meta: Brimstone Horrors

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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: Emerging meta: Brimstone Horrors   Tue Jun 06 2017, 19:01

First looks at competitive groups are showing mass Brimstone Horror spam as the new meta. 120 4++ little guys all casting Smite and being buffed by Daemon Princes or Magnus or whatnot. The Daemon Princes are untargetable as long as the horrors are there, and they can fan out to create deep strike denial as well as plunge themselves into multiple combats.

AP is useless against these guys and at 20 points a squad they don't clog the lists much, so there is a full army behind that mess. Also, due to rule changes, trying to claim objectives from them will be almost impossible.

We need a counter.
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Demantiae
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PostSubject: Re: Emerging meta: Brimstone Horrors   Tue Jun 06 2017, 19:28

Tip the table over and refuse to play BS like this. This is what broke 7th.

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Faitherun
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PostSubject: Re: Emerging meta: Brimstone Horrors   Tue Jun 06 2017, 19:57

What kind of moral buffs do they get?

My first thought is to force moral checks on them
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Emerging meta: Brimstone Horrors   Tue Jun 06 2017, 20:26

Can we kill them in close combat? Maybe charge muliple units with grotesques and stuff and let them die due to morale and stuff.

But I must check the horror rules first. Now idea....

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PostSubject: Re: Emerging meta: Brimstone Horrors   Tue Jun 06 2017, 21:11

TA, i thought you only played open play. If so, just tip the table over.
if you don't, then I don't know.
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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: Re: Emerging meta: Brimstone Horrors   Tue Jun 06 2017, 21:26

I plan to run comp lists too, but open play for goofing around. This is my first attempt at figuring out a workaround to a broken list. I'm thinking a bazillion attacks should work, but they need to be expendable, and unfortunately nothing we have is as expendable as the Brimstones themselves.

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Hen Tai, the tentacle guy
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PostSubject: Re: Emerging meta: Brimstone Horrors   Tue Jun 06 2017, 22:59

If they run them in huge squads, your friendly neighborhood voidraven could come to your aid and melt that cheese away.

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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: Re: Emerging meta: Brimstone Horrors   Tue Jun 06 2017, 23:02

I'm thinking Razorwing flocks

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Emerging meta: Brimstone Horrors   Tue Jun 06 2017, 23:03

Yeah, that and Shredder Spam, D3 hits for cheap. Or Poison spam if they always get a 4++, it comes down to turn 1-2 can we kill 70-90 models?

I think so, sense Smite is only 18" we can move 16-60 and shoot 24-36, we shouldnt have a problem against that.

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PostSubject: Re: Emerging meta: Brimstone Horrors   Tue Jun 06 2017, 23:07

The Brimstones are just the wall, it's the entire 1700 points behind that wall that's the real issue. That wall prevents us from targetinf buff characters, deep striking, avoiding combats, etc.

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PostSubject: Re: Emerging meta: Brimstone Horrors   Tue Jun 06 2017, 23:18

20 points a squad? How many bases and what are there statistics per base??

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Emerging meta: Brimstone Horrors   Tue Jun 06 2017, 23:29

What groups are doing this btw? wondering if they have written batreps

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PostSubject: Re: Emerging meta: Brimstone Horrors   Wed Jun 07 2017, 00:11

What about the Crucible of Malediction? Suicide-charging a Haemy up the field and having a 12'' "screw you" bubble to every psyker model around him might clear some space.

I mean, what else are our HQs good for?
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PostSubject: Re: Emerging meta: Brimstone Horrors   Wed Jun 07 2017, 00:27

lol nice idea

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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: Emerging meta: Brimstone Horrors   Wed Jun 07 2017, 08:01

The crucibles might work, but at 2 points a pop the brimstone horrors are cheap as hell.
Their smite is dangerous in large quantitites only (they only roll a single d6 for spychic test so only 1 in 3 squads will make it)
They are only s1 so assault them is the best option I think, even if they have 2 attacks 10 of them will only kill one hellion.

LD test might be nice unless they bring icons (then if they pass on a 1 they get pink horrors added to the unit, which can then split into blue horrors and even more brimstone horrors).
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PostSubject: Re: Emerging meta: Brimstone Horrors   Wed Jun 07 2017, 08:02

I believe you can still cast powers in melee.

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PostSubject: Re: Emerging meta: Brimstone Horrors   Wed Jun 07 2017, 08:19

Massive Wound output seems to be the way to go.

Assuming 200 models (400 points, 10 Troops slots)
With a 4++ save, we need to deal 800 wounds. Can we deal 800 Wounds with 400 points worth of models in a single turn?
Not to my knowledge.

So... Mortal Wounds?

Mandrakes would be our best bet there, but I don't see this as being particularly point efficient.

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PostSubject: Re: Emerging meta: Brimstone Horrors   Wed Jun 07 2017, 10:30

Multi charge? What's their morale value?

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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Emerging meta: Brimstone Horrors   Wed Jun 07 2017, 13:53

Razorwing Flocks was my first thought too. 432 points should net you 36 flocks and 3 Beastmasters, which should be able to kill little under 50 of the little buggers. Thats as good damage as you can get usually per 1 turn. But the flocks are of little use elsewhere.
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PostSubject: Re: Emerging meta: Brimstone Horrors   Wed Jun 07 2017, 15:41

Good thing is those flocks are also great at eating all those mortal wounds from all their smite spam with 4 wounds a base.
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PostSubject: Re: Emerging meta: Brimstone Horrors   Wed Jun 07 2017, 18:19

Well, this is certainly disheartening.
Even if you can field a DE list that can handle the 2PPM 4++ models, could that selfsame list also handle someone that drops down nothing but three Renegade Knights and Magnus the Red on the table?

Honestly, the single biggest reason I stopped playing 7th was because of this goddamn list-level single-gimmick rock-paper-scissors crap. I was really, really hoping 8th edition had wised up and kicked it to the curb.
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PostSubject: Re: Emerging meta: Brimstone Horrors   Wed Jun 07 2017, 18:46

If it is truly that abusive, expect a modification that makes it not work relatively soon. That is the point of the structure of 8th and how they've pointed/broken out things. The sky will not rain brimstone horrors (for long, if ever).
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PostSubject: Re: Emerging meta: Brimstone Horrors   Wed Jun 07 2017, 18:49

"Things won't be as they have always been." Okay. But in the meantime I'm still working on solutions.

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PostSubject: Re: Emerging meta: Brimstone Horrors   Wed Jun 07 2017, 18:50

No doubt, I definitely think the high-model-count solution is needed. I think this will be relevant for infantry guard as well.
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Emerging meta: Brimstone Horrors   Wed Jun 07 2017, 18:55

@mynamelegend wrote:
Well, this is certainly disheartening.
Even if you can field a DE list that can handle the 2PPM 4++ models, could that selfsame list also handle someone that drops down nothing but three Renegade Knights and Magnus the Red on the table?

Honestly, the single biggest reason I stopped playing 7th was because of this goddamn list-level single-gimmick rock-paper-scissors crap. I was really, really hoping 8th edition had wised up and kicked it to the curb.

You cannot expect that with this number of faction and even with reduced uniqueness of 8th there won't be rock-paper-scissor. Anytime anyone will play a denial list (even though it is much harder to do in 8th save for IKs) it will end this way. Most powerful variation I have seen is a full CHSM cultist list with HQs for rerolls. Brimstones can go eat dirt against that. And that was only GW cultists, not FW renegades. Those will be much more "fun". :-D
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