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 Scourges Blasters vs Dark Lances

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WickermansShadow
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PostSubject: Re: Scourges Blasters vs Dark Lances   Wed Jun 21 2017, 18:11

"If you are probably going to face necrons regularly then the blaster may be a better choice."

Iv'e seen this brought up afew times and Von Snabel broke down the math earlier but im still a bit confused as to why that is. Im fairly new and decided to start with Dark Eldar, and my flatmates starting Necron should i be avoiding Dark Lances in general?
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PostSubject: Re: Scourges Blasters vs Dark Lances   Wed Jun 21 2017, 19:32

Just check the rules for Quantum Shielding. It's basically harder for any high Damage weapons to wound.
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PostSubject: Re: Scourges Blasters vs Dark Lances   Wed Jun 21 2017, 20:33

Quantum Shielding is, when you take damage, roll a D6 if you rolled lower than the damage you took, ignore it.

If you took 6 damage, a roll of 1-5 will ignore that damage

Blasters to D3, if you roll a 1 they cant stop it, if you roll a 2 only a roll of a 1 can stop it and 3D only a roll of 2 can stop it.

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PostSubject: Re: Scourges Blasters vs Dark Lances   Wed Jun 21 2017, 23:02

I actually did LOTS of math when it came to Blaster (also concerning Quantum Shields).

It is true that, in a purely mathematical world, the D6 damage offsets the -1 hit modifier. However,
you really need to make use of that D6 or the Blaster will be much more effective.

If you move and shoot, Lances surpass Blasters only on targets with 5 wounds or more and are equal on targets with 4 wounds. Against targets with 3 or less wounds, the Blaster will actually deal more damage (and I suppose you want to make use of that movement). And that was without factoring in the additional costs.

The math behind it is simple. For example against a 2 wounded model, a Blaster has a 66% chance to deal 2 damage (on 2 and 3) and a 33% damage to do 1 damage (on a 1).
Result: 1,66 wounds on average (1 * 0,33 + 2 * 0,66)

The same applies to Lances: 16% chance of doing 1 damage and 84% chance to deal 2 damage (on 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6).
Result: 1,83 wounds on average (1 * 0,16 + 2 * 0,84)

It is clearly visible that the DL is only marginally better and that gets eaten away big time by the -1 hit modifier (and the higher point cost).

For me, that raises the question why I shouldn't max out on Dark Lances on a platform that doesn't have the movement penalty. The price of a Ravager/Razorwing is comparable to a 4 DL Scourge squad but gives me MUCH more survivability.

Because of this I think the best weapon is the Blaster. Sure, 18" range puts them into a dangerous position, but they want to kill the juiciest, most expensive infantry targets that have 2 wounds and a great save. They could perform excellent as TEQ and bike killers and certainly have the movement to keep up.

Personally, I want to avoid taking unecessary transports and if I take 4 Blasters on some Scourges, that means I don't need to take a Venom for some Blasterborns. Personally, I see Venoms excel much more with Shredder/Splinterborn as an anti-horde unit.

Edit: But now that I think about it, 4 Blaster shots from Scourges are comparable to the 2D3 Darklight shots from a Voidraven. And similar to the Ravager, the increase in cost is not really substantial.

@WickermansShadow wrote:
"If you are probably going to face necrons regularly then the blaster may be a better choice."

Iv'e seen this brought up afew times and Von Snabel broke down the math earlier but im still a bit confused as to why that is. Im fairly new and decided to start with Dark Eldar, and my flatmates starting Necron should i be avoiding Dark Lances in general?

That depends on how you see it. From a pure wounding perspective they are, in fact, equal. Against Quantum Shielding D3 is equivalent to D6 (1,55 wounds on average).

And in the case of Lance Scourges, this makes everything even worse (see above).

Against Quantum Shielding our D2 Disintegrator Shots are actually the best weapon we have (1,66 wounds on average per shot). Haywire Blasters also perform surprisingly well and cost substantially less.

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Scourges Blasters vs Dark Lances   Wed Jun 21 2017, 23:35

4 Blasters will do more than 4 DL's against Quantum Shields is you roll the same for both weapons

lets say you roll 1, 3, 4 ,6

Blaster that is 1D, 2D, 2D, 3D
Quantum Shields: Ignores on 1D cant, 2D roll of 1, 2D roll of 1, 3D roll of 1-2
Total: Most likely 8 wounds (33% chance to do 5 wounds)

Now lets look at the Lance

Lances that is 1D, 3D, 4D, 6D
Quantum Shields: Ignores on 1D cant, 3D roll of 1-2, D4 roll of 1-3, D6 rolls of 1-5
Total: 4, possible 8 and a 16% chance of 14


So both do 8 wounds on average, with the same rolls, but if the rolls where something like this 1, 3, 5, 6 then for sure blasters on average will do more damage.

Rolling 3's is the same damage, its the 2 on lances that is important, and a 4+ on a lance will on average do less over all.


I personally like Blasters b.c i can DS shoot full BS and move and shoot full BS, a 50% chance to hit is 1 thing, but shoot at vehicles will sometimes make you another -1 to hit, or with some powers that do the same, -2 to hit at times is damning to a AT unit.

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PostSubject: Re: Scourges Blasters vs Dark Lances   Wed Jun 21 2017, 23:50

I'm not sure if I can follow your math, but this is what I found out:
D1: 1 damage, 0% to ignore = 1 damage on average
D2: 2 damage, 16% to ignore = 1.66 damage on average
D3: 3 damage, 33% to ignore = 2 damage on average
D4: 4 damage, 50% to ignore = 2 damage on average
D5: 5 damage, 66% to ignore = 1.66 damage on average
D6: 6 damage, 84% to ignore = 1 damage on average

As you can see, this is basically mirrored backwards. D1, D2 and D3 together are just as strong as D4, D5 and D6. Therefore D3 is just as strong as D3.

Funnily, if there would be a weapon with 7+ damage, it would just be ignored.

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PostSubject: Re: Scourges Blasters vs Dark Lances   Wed Jun 21 2017, 23:59

Thats what i said... lol

D3 is the same for both weapons, a roll of 2 on lance better than a roll of 2 on blaster but a roll of 4+ on lance will not very good and 6 is just terrible for us.

If you are roll 1-4 on lances for damage always then take lances, if you are rolling 4-6 then take blasters.

Due to the randomness of it just Gl: HF!

HWB IMO are to costly, when a blaster/dl still works great against things other than vehicles, like wraiths, destroyers etc...

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PostSubject: Re: Scourges Blasters vs Dark Lances   Thu Jun 22 2017, 07:11

I find that it also depends a lot on how the opposition plays.
If he is really shooty: blasters
If he prefers cc: lances/dissies
18 inch is just not enough to keep out of melee in my experience Not only are my most common enemies orks and nids (both fast on the charge and melee oriented). But I find that the targets I want to fire at are often screened by other units, which means being 18 from my target means being within 15 or so of another unit. This is way to close for my liking.
Now I often play against orcs (who can reroll charge distance and can advance and charge if a character is nearby) and nids (who have a lot of 8+ movement and can sometimes also advance and charge).
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PostSubject: Re: Scourges Blasters vs Dark Lances   Thu Jun 22 2017, 08:07

Then DS them the full 18" away in Cover, 8" move with a -2 means they need a 11" charge to get to you, move your 14" movement + advancing if need too will make them out of range.

I get your point, but you can always just DS them within your own army to protect them more too if you need too.

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PostSubject: Re: Scourges Blasters vs Dark Lances   Thu Jun 22 2017, 09:59

Jeah I realise that.
Jeah but that is if I ds 18" away. I for some reason never want to shoot my blasters/dark lances at those hormagaunts, termagaunt standing in front, but at the big guys standing behind them. Which means I got to get around 3 inch closer, and suddenly it is just an 8 he needs to roll (if I start at maximum distance and in terrain which gives him a penalty to charge distance). And remember orcs can disembark 3 inch from their truck I am shooting plus the base size. So then even a best case scenario is the same and they can still run and charge for an additional d6 inch.
And that is if there are no genestealers (can run and charge) hive tyrant, shrikes, lictors, bikerboys etc naerby which move a lot further.
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PostSubject: Re: Scourges Blasters vs Dark Lances   Thu Jun 22 2017, 10:04

You wouldnt, you would shoot something else Smile you can DS anywhere you want lol. You also dont have to DS turn 1, you can pick when, after some gants are killed or you plow a hole in their army then DS them in.

Everything is situational, just like DL are, 4 DL in cover isnt a bad thing, but for me Scourges are made to jump around and blasters work better that way.

If i want DL's i would just take Ravagers.

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PostSubject: Re: Scourges Blasters vs Dark Lances   Thu Jun 22 2017, 12:07

I must have misread the rules for the Heat Lance...I thought it was roll 2xD6 for damage picking the highest?
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PostSubject: Re: Scourges Blasters vs Dark Lances   Thu Jun 22 2017, 12:11

At 1/2 range, they are also like more costly than a DL.

9" to get the 2D6 pick the highest, you DS out side of 9"

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PostSubject: Re: Scourges Blasters vs Dark Lances   Fri Jun 23 2017, 04:22

Actually, the more I think about it the more I am tempted to simply try out a big blob of Shardcarbine Scourges. Now that a dual SC Venom costs 90pts I was thinking of other ways how to mass up on Splinter Fire again.

For 70pts you get 15 Splinter Shots from 18", deep striking 9" away from any enemy. That is the same cost as 10 Kabalites but you get better movement, a 4+ and 6++ (and at 18" they would only provide 10 shots).
In terms of cost and shooting that is similar to a 7th edition Venom.

Buying SCs for them is not worth it, because you can simply buy another Scourge. Same damage at 18" but with more ablative wounds.

Imo, buying the Splinter Cannon is only worth it on Kabalites, as everything else either got a Shardcarbine or Twin Splinter Rifle. Even for the Talos, 30pts for Splinter Cannons is too much when it only hits on 4s.

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