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Kantalla
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PostSubject: Can you have 1+ WS?   Tue Jun 06 2017, 08:03

This question is specifically relating to the Succubus and Archite Glaive:

If you have a Succubus with a WS of 2+ and choose the +1 WS option, while using an Archite Glaive, with a -1 hit modifier, what is your required roll to hit?

Does WS cap at 2+, meaning you would hit on 3+ because of the hit modifier (until PfP turn 3); or can you have 1+ WS, making the required hit roll 2+?

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Can you have 1+ WS?   Tue Jun 06 2017, 09:11

Doesn't seem to be addressed in the rules but I'd just total all modifiers and apply the net result, regardless of what happens in the intervening steps.

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PostSubject: Re: Can you have 1+ WS?   Tue Jun 06 2017, 09:30

My interpretation is that you can have -35+ to hit, but a a roll of 1 is allways a miss. So your succubus hits on 1+ but a 1 is allways a miss making it in practice 2+ to hit
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PostSubject: Re: Can you have 1+ WS?   Tue Jun 06 2017, 12:25

Von Snabel - that's not an interpretation, the rulebook states that a roll of 1 is always a miss.

The issue (or perhaps not) is that the combat drugs don't give +1 to hit, which would negate the -1 to hit from the Archite Glaive, but instead give +1 to WS, which might be intended to cap at 2+.

That seems like a lot of fluffy words such as 'might' and 'intended', so I think the Succubus should be OK with the weapon skill buff, but thought I would get others' opinions first.

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PostSubject: Re: Can you have 1+ WS?   Tue Jun 06 2017, 12:37

@Kantalla wrote:
Von Snabel - that's not an interpretation, the rulebook states that a roll of 1 is always a miss.


I was perhaps a bit unclear, it's the lack of a cap that is the interpetation, not the "1 i allways a miss" part. I have atleast not found anything stating that a stat can't be better than a 2+. Thus positive modifiers could leave you with a better than 2+ to hit.(Modifier as ex WS +1, not just +1 to hit) But anything better than a 2+ still hits just as good as a 2+. They also point out that limitations of S, T and Ld modifiers, leaving BS, WS and move to be modified as wildly as one would like. That's my interpetation.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Can you have 1+ WS?   Tue Jun 06 2017, 12:54

Can't see anything in the rules that limits what a stat can be other than S, T and Ld cannot be lowered to less than 1.

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PostSubject: Re: Can you have 1+ WS?   Tue Jun 06 2017, 16:13

I have yet to see it, but if there's something that gives -1 to hit in close combat then you'd still be hitting on a 2+ I guess.

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PostSubject: Re: Can you have 1+ WS?   Tue Jun 06 2017, 17:39

Just like armor saves, I would say that hitting on 2+, -1, +1 = hitting on 2+

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PostSubject: Re: Can you have 1+ WS?   Wed Jun 07 2017, 05:56

The middle section of this rule says that "all modifiers are cumulative".

I would take that to believe that the succubus would still hit on a 2+ with the +1WS drug.

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inevitable_faith
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PostSubject: Re: Can you have 1+ WS?   Sat Jun 24 2017, 17:45

I mulled this over a lot too and the way I see it pertains to the wording of what constitutes a "roll of 1". I'll try to clarify this as best I can.

I can't find any caps on stats so a WS of 1+ seems possible so we give our succubus the +1 WS drug. She now hits on 1 but since a roll of 1 is always a miss it seems like a useless stat. Then we factor in the archite glaives -1 to hit roll modifier. Normally this would turn a roll of 2 into a miss as her WS is 2+ but since she is now WS 1+ our roll of two is modified to 1 which according to her WS is still a hit. Here's where defining what a "roll of 1" is becomes important: we didn't roll a 1, we rolled a 2 that was modified to 1, the facing of the dice still shows a two. So when the BRB says "a roll of 1 is always a miss" do they mean the end result after modifiers or do they mean the physical dices facing?

Taking this conundrum in a different scenario lets look at an overcharged plasma shot vs a venom. A roll of 1 to hit with the overcharged plasma would slay the model firing it, under normal circumstances this is pretty cut and dry but now we apply the -1 modifier to hit from the venoms flicker fields. Now does that plasma shot overheat on a roll of 2 as well? If it does then rolling a 1 wouldn't slay the shooter as a roll of 1 with a -1 mod makes it a 0 which isn't the required result of 1 needed to blow up your plasma (keeping in mind there's no rules written that state a result with modifiers can't go below 1). Just from a fluff perspective how is it that making something more difficult to hit makes plasma that much more dangerous to shoot?

It would seem to me that the easiest way to reconcile these rules (and most fair to everyone involved) is to interpret situations where a "roll of 1" is understood as physically rolling a 1 on the die. This allows for a clear answer on the archite glaive with +1 WS drug debate without breaking any rules as they are written (because stating that WS can't be modified to +1 is inventing a rule that isn't written in the BRB), it also clears up which models suffer from overheat on overcharged plasma (and doesn't punish people for shooting plasma at "hard to hit" targets for some strange reason). It can also be used to clarify how "re-rolls of 1" work with regards to a -1 modifier.

What are your guys thoughts on the above interpretation? My group likes this as it doesn't change the probabilities of things happening, overheating plasma is always 1/6, re-roll 1's to hit is always 1/6 (since a roll of two doesn't "become" a 1 as a result of a -1 modifier). This keeps rolling a clean and simple affair where it's easy to pick out your hits, misses and quickly identify any 1's (or 6s in some rules cases such as Cronos extra wounds or bladestorm on shuriken weapons on a roll of 6).

Sorry for the long post as well, I have a hard time explaining myself in shorthand and fear being misunderstood or missing important points if I try to cut back my word count too much.





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PostSubject: Re: Can you have 1+ WS?   Sat Jun 24 2017, 18:43

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inevitable_faith
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PostSubject: Re: Can you have 1+ WS?   Sat Jun 24 2017, 19:13

Thank you for linking that FAQ yukondal, I didn't know it existed. It doesn't seem to answer whether WS +1 will allow a succubus to hit with her glaive on a roll of 2 but it does cover the plasma which I mentioned above and as of this FAQ my group is playing it wrong. Can't say that I agree with their ruling on the plasma to be honest though, means for some reason firing overcharged at hard to hit targets such as rangers, mandrakes and razrowings makes the plasma overheat more frequently, makes no sense to me but oh well I suppose that's their stance on it.

Given the rulings on this FAQ my guess would be that RAI a succubus with WS 1+ would still miss on a roll of two with her glaive. They seem to take the stance that 2-1 after modifiers still counts as a 1 for the sake of special rules or effects then it'd trigger the "a roll of 1 is always a miss" ruling in the BRB. This punishes her more as her ability for cult units to re-roll 1's to hit wouldn't trigger if she rolls a 2, as I read it you apply re-rolls then you apply modifiers to the re-rolled result. So until you hit turn three with PfP you'll only hit on 3+ with re-rolling 1's but not 2's (even though they'd be modified to a 1).
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PostSubject: Re: Can you have 1+ WS?   Sun Jun 25 2017, 01:53

The FAQ seems to suggest that a modified roll of 1 is a roll of 1, so will always miss (or do bad things to the firer with Plasma)

That would mean a WS 1+ Succubus with a -1 modifier would still miss on a natural roll of 1 or 2, but would get to reroll only natural rolls of 1.

Would be a lot cleaner if it was +1 to hit in the fight phase, and then clearly negated the penalty from the Archite Glaive.

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PostSubject: Re: Can you have 1+ WS?   Sun Jun 25 2017, 06:22

I agree with you Kantalla it would be a lot cleaner if the drug was +1 to hit in the fight phase just like our PfP does. On that note why they put a drug that does +1 WS for an army that gets WS 2+ on turn three seems beyond short sighted to me in the first place. It'll give at best the unit one turn of hitting on 2+ before our PfP +1 to hit kicks in then it's a useless drug, barring I suppose a lucky first turn charge then you get 2 rounds. Still doesn't seem worthwhile to me. +1 Attack, +1 Strength and +1 Toughness all seem like the real winners for our drugs anyways, maybe the +2 Movement in niche cases. Coulda easily been a 3 drug table in my opinion. But I suppose I'm getting off topic now, sorry.
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PostSubject: Re: Can you have 1+ WS?   Wed Jun 28 2017, 15:43

This is confusing to me or at least unintuitive. You apply re rolls before modifiers and modifiers before "activated" abilities?

Imagine I have a marine with a plasma gun that can re roll 1s to hit and I am shooting at a flyer for -1 to hit. A roll of a 2 is modified to 1 which kills me. A roll of a 1 triggers a re roll and then a roll of 1 or 2 will also kill me.

Is that right?

Also...if I get modified from a roll of a 6 to a 7 does that still trigger things that activate on a 6? (Like many of our mortal wound weapon abilities)
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PostSubject: Re: Can you have 1+ WS?   Wed Jun 28 2017, 17:59

Designer's Commentary (above) wrote:
Q: If a rule or ability grants a re-roll on, for example, ‘hit rolls of 1’ (such as a Space Marine Captain’s ‘Rites of Battle’ ability) does that effect trigger before or after applying modifiers to the hit rolls?
A: Re-rolls always happen before modifiers, so the re-roll ability is triggered before applying modifiers.

For example, let’s imagine a Space Marine (Ballistic Skill 3+) moves and fires a heavy bolter (a Heavy 3 weapon) whilst within range of a Space Marine Captain’s ‘Rites of Battle’ ability (allowing you to re-roll hit rolls of 1).
The hit dice are rolled and result in a 1, 2 and 5.
Re-rolls are applied before modifiers. In this example a single dice is re-rolled because of the Captain’s ability, this time resulting in a 3.
Modifiers are applied after re-rolls. In this example there is
a -1 modifier to the hit rolls for moving and firing a Heavy weapon. That means that the post-re-roll scores of 2, 3 and 5
are modifed to 1, 2 and 4. Comparing the final results to the model’s Ballistic Skill, only one shot hits the target.


Q: When making a hit roll with a supercharged plasma weapon, do you determine whether a ‘1’ was rolled before or after applying re-rolls and modifiers?
A: You apply all re-rolls and modifiers first.

For example, if, after re-rolls and modifiers, the final result is then a 1 (or counts as a 1, as explained above), then the supercharged plasma weapon injures or kills the firer.

Q: If a rule states that an ability triggers on, for example, ‘hit rolls of 6+’, does this refer to the result of the dice rolls before or after modifiers are applied?
A: It refers to the final result, after re-rolls and modifiers (if any) have been applied.

I like it, you've got to put just a little more thought into what you're shooting at.
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PostSubject: Re: Can you have 1+ WS?   Wed Jun 28 2017, 23:56

I can see why on a tactical level you like it Hastyr, I've got a few questions though if you don't mind.

Tactically it adds a level of depth to the game but at the cost of sacrificing fluff (for example plasma guns that become more prone to overheating if the target is hard to hit) does this bother you at all or are you happy to just play the game and not think too much of the interactions between the fluff and the rules? On that note do you participate in tournaments or are you more of an at-home or club beer and pretzels player? I know the two types aren't mutually exclusive but I'm just curious from what perspective your view is coming from. I myself am a beer and pretzels guy so I know my views are more likely to fall on the fluff and less "gamey" style of play.

Secondly do you worry at all that using modifiers to adjust the dangers of overcharged plasma could be abused in a way that would be detrimental to the fun of the game? Do you worry that a player may leverage certain bonuses so that a weapon that would normally have a danger to using it is now "safe" and will never hurt him or perhaps that another player may leverage negative modifiers against his opponent to make certain weapons nearly useless and/or suicidal to use. In short do you worry that this ruling can be abused in such a way that it'd detract from the gaming experience/intent of the weapon?

Lastly does it seem counter-intuitive to you to apply re-rolls before modifiers as only some of your misses will get re-rolled while others will not, this applies more heavily to rules that allow you to re-roll all misses not just rolls of 1.

I in no way mean to cheapen your opinion with these questions by the way Hastyr. I'm simply curious about the perspective you have on this that leads you to preferring it over the other way of doing things. I personally don't like it but perhaps in hearing others opinions with some reasoning I may come around to seeing some silver lining in it. If I'm stuck with this ruling for 8th I should at least keep an open mind about liking it.
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Scrz
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PostSubject: Re: Can you have 1+ WS?   Thu Jun 29 2017, 10:07

./butting in to the conversation

Plasma guns overheating easier depending on target makes no sense if you think of the rules a being a literal representation of what is happening in the fight. For instance that a model with a heavy 1 weapon actually just fires one bullet pr turn for a total of 5-6 shots for an entire engagement.

But if you think of it as a symbolic representation of that weapons damage output, then you can imagine the bearer having to fire more shots against something that is hard to hit in order to hit it. And possibly, seeing that his shots does not connect with the target, the gunman could lose his head and fall for the temptation to fire just one last shot even if he knows it is potentially dangerous.

Anyway. That is how I sleep at night.

Also, overheating only happens if you use the super charged profile, so you can just fire normal mode against Venoms.
Stacking modifiers is a part of the game now. Plasma devastators with a apothecary and a captain? nearby are already guaranteeing almost risk free overcharged shots, with rerolling ones and potentially bringing dead dudes back. I don't think it is a big deal because they are all killable.

I also don't think applying modifiers after rerolls are counter intuitive, just counter what we are used to. IMO rerolls can be too powerful to the point of completely invalidating any -1 to hit modifiers, so I think it is a good way to balance the two rules against each other.

Just so you know where I'm coming from, I would not even be a wargamer if it wasn't for the 40K fluff.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Can you have 1+ WS?   Thu Jun 29 2017, 11:09

@Scrz wrote:
I also don't think applying modifiers after rerolls are counter intuitive, just counter what we are used to. IMO rerolls can be too powerful to the point of completely invalidating any -1 to hit modifiers, so I think it is a good way to balance the two rules against each other.

I'd disagree about it not being counter intuitive. If you have a situation where you roll a dice, know that it is going to miss once you apply the modifier but cannot use your ability to re-roll misses, that is counter intuitive.

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PostSubject: Re: Can you have 1+ WS?   Thu Jun 29 2017, 11:52

Tactically it adds a level of depth to the game but at the cost of sacrificing fluff (for example plasma guns that become more prone to overheating if the target is hard to hit) does this bother you at all or are you happy to just play the game and not think too much of the interactions between the fluff and the rules? On that note do you participate in tournaments or are you more of an at-home or club beer and pretzels player? I know the two types aren't mutually exclusive but I'm just curious from what perspective your view is coming from. I myself am a beer and pretzels guy so I know my views are more likely to fall on the fluff and less "gamey" style of play.

I really like the tactical aspect, and while I might not be a beer and pretzels guy I usually play with a few guys regularly and some "pickup" games. So with campaigns and stuff with the regular guys I do care about the fluff.
What I do not see is why is it detrimental to the fluff? You might just have to look at it differently, it just depends on how you see your plasma shot. How do you envision overcharged shot works? I see it as putting your finger on the trigger slightly longer thus getting a bigger stream of plasma at the enemy, if something is hard to hit, it makes it more likely you will keep pushing the trigger just that little bit longer in the hopes of hitting him: more chance of overheating. If you do hit, it will often be with a bigger splash thus the higher strength and extra damage.
The sniper who gets a +1/ reroll to wound: it already implies a larger chance to hit a vurnerable part, thus a larger chance to do a mortal wound sounds good.


Secondly do you worry at all that using modifiers to adjust the dangers of overcharged plasma could be abused in a way that would be detrimental to the fun of the game? Do you worry that a player may leverage certain bonuses so that a weapon that would normally have a danger to using it is now "safe" and will never hurt him or perhaps that another player may leverage negative modifiers against his opponent to make certain weapons nearly useless and/or suicidal to use. In short do you worry that this ruling can be abused in such a way that it'd detract from the gaming experience/intent of the weapon?
Not really, I actually like the additional aspect of it. It means you have more influence over what is dangerous or not, it could probably be abused but have not really seen it and hope that it won't happen much/ get an errata if it really becomes a problem

Lastly does it seem counter-intuitive to you to apply re-rolls before modifiers as only some of your misses will get re-rolled while others will not, this applies more heavily to rules that allow you to re-roll all misses not just rolls of 1.
It is different thatn before so it took a little getting used to but I change between gaming systems often enough that I do not find it really feels counter intuitive. It just means that you ad modifiers last instead of the beginning. It seems counter intiutive since we are used to modifying what we need instead of our roll, but from games where you are more used to modifying the roll instead of the result it makes it no less counter intuative.
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Scrz
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PostSubject: Re: Can you have 1+ WS?   Thu Jun 29 2017, 12:11

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@Scrz wrote:
I also don't think applying modifiers after rerolls are counter intuitive, just counter what we are used to. IMO rerolls can be too powerful to the point of completely invalidating any -1 to hit modifiers, so I think it is a good way to balance the two rules against each other.

I'd disagree about it not being counter intuitive. If you have a situation where you roll a dice, know that it is going to miss once you apply the modifier but cannot use your ability to re-roll misses, that is counter intuitive.

I acknowledge your feelings on the matter. And I think I understand where you are coming from.
I think the wording of the re-roll rules could be the source of the discontent?

For instance if the ability to re-roll stated that: "A model may re-roll any dice with a value that is under his weapon skill, before any modifiers are applied," it is possible that no one would have offered it much thought.

As they are written now, I literally could not understand the way they were supposed to work until someone spelled it out for me. But that is due to poor writing and not the mechanic of the rule itself.
Maybe that is what you mean as well?
Personally I find the rule mechanic to kinda resemble the stacking of effects in Magic The gathering, so I don't have a problem with it.
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PostSubject: Re: Can you have 1+ WS?   Thu Jun 29 2017, 12:33

I've been playing 40K since, literally, day one (I bought my copy at Games Day in London on the day it was launched) so I'm used to change but this doesn't feel like just a case of getting used to something new. I don't know how else to put it other that it just feels...wrong!

If they want to limit the effect of re-rolls then don't give out so many bloody re-rolls!

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PostSubject: Re: Can you have 1+ WS?   Thu Jun 29 2017, 13:17

Not sure where I heard it but I think GW actually commented on the rule, saying that the reason they did it that way was because if you do it the "intuitive way", a -1 to hit debuff would actually be a buff to all models with the re-roll 1s rule, since they would be rerolling 1s and 2s. Which would arguably make even less sense. Not the best argument for it being a good decision, since it sounds like more of a band aid solution to a design flaw, but hey, at least we agree on one thing: It does feel wrong.
That is probably why I like it.Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Can you have 1+ WS?   Thu Jun 29 2017, 13:34

uhm guys I think we are mixing modifiers to characteristics and modifiers to dice rolls. they are not cumulative.

the drug modifier is a modifiers to the WS characteristic of the model. So yes, a drugged Succubus is a WC 1+ model.

But when you roll to hit, a roll of 1 (after re-rolls and modifiers to dice rolls are applied, if any) is an auto-fail so you don't even compare that roll with the Succubus WC: you simply fail

The glaive modifier is a modifiers to dice rolls. So a standard Succubus (WS 2+) that roll a 1 or 2 while attacking with the glaive will fail to hit (because your rolls are 1 and 1 after modifiers)

The same is true for a drugged Succubus (WS 1+) that roll a 1 or 2 while attacking with the glaive: you are still rolling 1 and 1 (after modifiers) and so auto-failing

And Bides of Death will allow you to re-roll only a natural roll of 1, because re-roll are applied before modifiers to dice rolls (so you can't re-roll a natural roll of 2)

The only thing that can cancel out the glaive malus is PfP from turn three
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PostSubject: Re: Can you have 1+ WS?   Sun Jul 02 2017, 21:42

I'd like to say thank you to everyone who gave their viewpoints on this and gave some reasoning as to why things are the way they are. I'm significantly less bothered by the re-rolls before modifiers ruling now than I was a while ago.

Scrz, I see what you mean about limiting the "re-rolls of 1" rule as things would get the re-roll on a 1 and two if you applied mods but I still believe a cleaner fix is to only have special effects only trigger on a natural roll of that number, in this case you'd still only get to re-roll natural rolls of 1 even after modifiers have turned some 2s into 1s.

All in all 8th is still a significant improvement over 7th in my opinion so this is a pretty minor gripe of a "I'd have done this differently" nature. What are the odds I'd agree with every design choice by GW for this edition anyways? They've still got a lot of hits this edition overall with this just being one of a few misses in my books.

As for the counter-intuitiveness of re-rolls before modifiers. Mechanically I can see why they did it in some cases. It does limit the effectiveness of re-rolls after all but I think it goes against the grain of most other games (outside of 40k) where you apply modifiers then decide whether to re-roll or not after seeing what your final result would be. It is counter intuitive to me in that it goes against typical gaming conventions across many dice based games. It is something I'll have to keep track of during my games and consciously think about which dice I'll be able to re-roll during my matches until I get enough games in to re-train my thinking.

Garion, you're totally right with what you're saying, I believe earlier in the thread it was noted to work that way too. We kind of went off topic talking about modifiers and re-rolls after a bit.

Thanks again guys, I appreciate the discussion.
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