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 Covens CC Statistical Damage Output!

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RoadRageRob666
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PostSubject: Covens CC Statistical Damage Output!   Tue Jun 06 2017, 06:36

Here ya go, kiddies: http://imgur.com/a/eXA2K

As expected, Elctrocorrosive whips are the best against anything that has multiple wounds.

Also, I made a mistake with the Venon blade Grot v.s. GEQs, the value should be 1.48!

All thoughts, praise, shame, and questions are appreciated!

Edit: top left hand values are for MEQ!


Last edited by RoadRageRob666 on Tue Jun 06 2017, 11:57; edited 1 time in total
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RedRegicide
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PostSubject: Re: Covens CC Statistical Damage Output!   Tue Jun 06 2017, 10:26

Shouldn't it say MEQ in the top left corner?

What are the talos mortal wounds from?

Grots seem like the real MVP there.

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Hellstrom
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PostSubject: Re: Covens CC Statistical Damage Output!   Tue Jun 06 2017, 11:07

Why are the values for Wracks using (for example) an Agoniser against a Marine with a 3+ save different to a Dread with a 3+ save??
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Covens CC Statistical Damage Output!   Tue Jun 06 2017, 11:32

@RoadRageRob666 wrote:
Here ya go, kiddies: http://imgur.com/a/eXA2K

As expected, Elctrocorrosive whips are the best against anything that has multiple wounds.

Also, I made a mistake with the Venon blade Grot v.s. GEQs, the value should be 1.48!

All thoughts, praise, shame, and questions are appreciated!

Once again, thank you for this analysis. Cronos looks to be S5, which would fit with their previous incarnation. S3 would be absurd IMO.

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Von Snabel
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PostSubject: Re: Covens CC Statistical Damage Output!   Tue Jun 06 2017, 11:33

@Hellstrom wrote:
Why are the values for Wracks using (for example) an Agoniser against a Marine with a 3+ save different to a Dread with a 3+ save??

Since Dread is a vehicle they only wound on a 6+ rather than a 4+, i think
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RoadRageRob666
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PostSubject: Re: Covens CC Statistical Damage Output!   Tue Jun 06 2017, 12:05

@RedRegicide wrote:
Yup, the top row should be for MEQs, mb! Also, the 19% chance of D3 mortal wounds is for the ichor injector. Also, Id disagree, its the Haemy thats the real MVP! Those 5 base attacks with WS 2+ are great, not to mention the +1T aura that they give!

@Hellstrom wrote:
As
@Von Snabel wrote:
correctly pointed out, Wracks are equipped with Haemy Tools, which have the following profile: S user, Ap 0, D1, they wound on a 4+
except if they are attacking a vehicle, in which case it is a 6+. Dreads a vehicles, so 6+ to wound.

@Count Adhemar wrote:
No worries, lots has changed with 8th coming out, so were all in this together. Sweet, I assumed that they were S5, but the Index copy I have is blurry on that page, so I didnt want to make a dumb mistake! Ill run the numbers later on today!


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Seshiru
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PostSubject: Re: Covens CC Statistical Damage Output!   Tue Jun 06 2017, 15:52

What do Elctrocorrosive whips do now?

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Covens CC Statistical Damage Output!   Tue Jun 06 2017, 16:18

@Seshiru wrote:
What do Elctrocorrosive whips do now?

Wound on 4+ (6 for Vehicles), AP-2, 2 Damage

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Seshiru
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PostSubject: Re: Covens CC Statistical Damage Output!   Tue Jun 06 2017, 16:40

Thank you,

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mynamelegend
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PostSubject: Re: Covens CC Statistical Damage Output!   Tue Jun 06 2017, 18:04

I ran some numbers on point-effectiveness, because to me that's at least as interesting as pure per-model killiness. (I also ran your numbers again. I got different results from yours, so let me make it clear that I'm assuming from my data that the fight takes place before PFP grants Wracks and Grots a 2+ to hit)

Some pointers: Never take 10 man squads of Wracks. Always 2x5 with Electrocorrosive. The Ossefactor is great for point-efficiency if you can use it before a charge. I'll refer to 5x Wracks with an Electrocorrosive Whip as simply "Wracks" from now on.
3x Grots is more point-effective than 5x Grots against TEQ, but obviously a bit of a waste of a Raider's transport capacity.

3x Grots are less point-effective than Wracks against anything that's got less than a Terminator profile, but are way more point-effective against vehicles (I said point-effective, not Good. Both of them in CC with vehicles is still what we call a "fail-state"). The 5 Grots that fill a vehicle entirely are worse than Wracks point-for-point against every target except vehicles, including Terminators.
The best case for Grotesques is that you can actually bring an HQ or two and a unit of 3-4 Grots in a Raider without losing out on extra special weapons.

The Haemy should always bring his Ossefactor. He's the most point-effective against TEQ, worse than Wracks but better than Grots against GEQ and MEQ, and worse than Grots but better than Wracks against DEQ (Dreadnought Equivalents).

The actual values are as follows, looking purely at CC and assuming the cost of the mandatory Ossefactors is not included.
Wracks:
 GEQ: 22.7
 MEQ: 40.9
 TEQ: 52.94
 DEQ: 101.61

Grots(3x):
 GEQ: 28.82
 MEQ: 48.3
 TEQ: 50.79
 DEQ: 67.01

Grots(5x):
 GEQ: 28.1
 MEQ: 46.95
 TEQ: 57.77
 DEQ: 67.09

Haemy:
 GEQ: 30.32
 MEQ: 60.86
 TEQ: 40.38
 DEQ: 91.3
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Seshiru
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PostSubject: Re: Covens CC Statistical Damage Output!   Tue Jun 06 2017, 18:09

Would be nice to see the comparison on the incubi, wyches, and maybe a third one just to get a baseline to compare coven to our other cc types.

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mynamelegend
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PostSubject: Re: Covens CC Statistical Damage Output!   Tue Jun 06 2017, 19:50

Comparisons to Incubi, Wyches, and Hellions - rounded to two decimal points. Assuming no PFP bonus to hit.

Long story short: Want CC Killy as Dark Eldar, bring Incubi. Nothing else is as effective point-for-point against just about any profile shy T8 vehicles, where Hellions with the +1 Strength drug shine.

Incubus/Klaivex
GEQ: 1.33/1.77
MEQ: 0.83/1.11
TEQ: 0.66/0.88
DEQ: 0.55/0.74

Wych/Bloodbride/Agoniser-Bride/Agoniser-Syren (No Drugs)
GEQ: 0.44/0.66/0.66/1
MEQ: 0.15/0.22/0.55/0.83
TEQ: 0.08/0.11/0.44/0.66
DEQ: 0.07/0.11/0.19/0.27

Hellion/Helliarch/Agoniser-Helliarch (No Drugs)
GEQ: 0.59/0.88/1
MEQ: 0.22/0.33/0.83
TEQ: 0.22/0.33/0.66
DEQ: 0.3/0.44/0.27

May add results for power swords, stunclaws, wych weapons, and drugs later.
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Woozl
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PostSubject: Re: Covens CC Statistical Damage Output!   Tue Jun 06 2017, 20:53

@mynamelegend very helpful.

Question: Seems like lower numbers (lower point - per wound/kill) are better. But the difference between your coven numbers and your wych/incubi numbers seem to be two orders of magnitude better. is that correct or did you just process differently?
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mynamelegend
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PostSubject: Re: Covens CC Statistical Damage Output!   Tue Jun 06 2017, 21:23

Sorry, I gave the Incubus/Wych/Hellion numbers in wounds-per-model, like the OP did.

Here are the points-per-wound costs for Incubi, Wyches, Bloodbrides, and Hellions. All assuming min size squads, logical upgrades, no drugs, and no PFP. I assure you, even when you run the numbers for the +1A and +1S drugs on the various wych cult and hellion options, there's very little difference - Incubi remain the kings of all forms of CC, as far as the Dark Eldar are concerned, with one single exception - Hellions with +1 Strength do just a teeny tad better against T8 3+ multi-wound targets, who are not taken into account by our four examples anyway.

5 Incubi (4 Incubi + Klaivex)
GEQ: 12.69
MEQ: 20.31
TEQ: 25.57
DEQ: 30.61

5 Wyches (4 Wyches + Hekatrix, Hydra Gauntlet, Agoniser)
GEQ: 18.79
MEQ: 38.77
TEQ: 58.88
DEQ: 68.73

5 Bloodbrides (4 Bloodbrides + Syren, Hydra Gauntlet, Agoniser)
GEQ: 18.64
MEQ: 35.73
TEQ: 53.8
DEQ: 80.04

5 Hellions (4 Hellions + Helliarch)
GEQ: 26.08
MEQ: 69.67
TEQ: 69.67
DEQ: 52.18
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Woozl
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PostSubject: Re: Covens CC Statistical Damage Output!   Tue Jun 06 2017, 21:35

Thanks! This is very interesting. I like where hellions sit for damage on vehicles. The prospect of switching between wyches and wracks depending on overall list fit and theme (coven vs. cult) seems appropriate and a decent tradeoff.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Covens CC Statistical Damage Output!   Tue Jun 06 2017, 22:41

Thanks for the input of math!

Cronos is S5 fyi (ive seen it in person)

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RoadRageRob666
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PostSubject: Re: Covens CC Statistical Damage Output!   Wed Jun 07 2017, 17:34

@mynamelegend wrote:

Thanks for doing the additional mathings!

Concerning the discrepancies: I think that youre using the wrong AP for the Agonizer, at the very least (some weapons have +1 attacks (grots), which I didnt notice till my 4th read through of the rules lol).

From your numbers, it looks like youre assuming that it has AP-3: the syren w/Ag should only be dishing out 0.67 wounds/model [ 3 attacks * 3+WS (4/6) * hitting on 4+ (3/6) * Sv 3+ Ap-2 = 5+ save (4/6) = 0.67 wounds]. Or I may very well be missing something!

If theres anything else wrong with my numbers, let me know, and thanks again for doing more mathings!
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