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 2000pt. pure DE Battalion

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aurynn
Incubi


Posts : 1522
Join date : 2013-04-23

PostSubject: 2000pt. pure DE Battalion   Mon Jun 05 2017, 20:06

Okay. So after some pondering, I have come up with a first list. It is a Battalion list which is kinda a 7th edition thinking, but hey... I think it would work. :-) I will soon finish my more efficient list that won't bother with stuff like troops. :-D

HQ
Lelith Hesperax (goes with her Bloodbrides)
Archon, Huskblade, Blast Pistol, PGL (goes with Incubi)

TROOPS
5 Kabalite Warriors, Blaster, Blast Pistol, Agoniser
Venom, 2xSC

5 Kabalite Warriors, Blaster, Blast Pistol, Agoniser
Venom, 2xSC

5 Kabalite Warriors, Blaster, Agoniser
Venom, 2xSC

ELITE
9 Incubi
Raider, Dark Lance, Shock Prow

9xHekatrix Bloodbrides, Wych Weapon, Blast Pistol, Agoniser
Raider, Dark Lance, Shock Prow

FAST ATTACK
6x Reavers, 2x Grav Talon, 2x Blaster, Agoniser

5x Scourges, 4x Heat Lance
Venom, 2xSC

HEAVY SUPPORT
Ravager, 3x Dark Lance

Ravager, 3x Dark Lance, Shock Prow

To explain the few pecularities:

Yes, the Scourges can ride in the Venom if it is desired for some protection and 25" Melta Threat Range, thus protecting the expensive Heat Lances and goading the shots with the lovely -1. The more they shoot this Venom, the less they shoot the assault units.

Archon has Huskblade just for variety and WISYWIG. He and Incubi are going after infantry so it does not really matter if he has Agoni or Huskblade. Huskblade is more fun for Character Hunting in case Shadowfield streak occurs. :-D

Tactic is simple. If I get the initiative, the First wave are the four Venoms and Reavers. Second wave is the characters with their units and their Raiders. Basically all this crashes into the enemy. Wyches will preferrably tie down some flying or HnR unit. Incubi task is destroy an unit and consolidate into another. Venoms and Kabalites distribute their shooting to help all units achieve their goals and then crash into the units if necessary to eat overwatch and decrease shooting of the enemy. Alternatively if going against castled enemy hugging back edge it is move and advance, taking advantage of assault weapons, maximum shooting and T2 charge for Reavers and Venoms, T3 for everything else.

If I lose the initiative, the Kabalites and Venoms and Raiders provide the wall (depending on what the enemy is playing), Incubi and Wyches and Reavers Countercharge. Scourges try and purge some important stuff like Characters or Monsters. If I lose initiative against shooty edge-hugging army, the first turn is movement with minimizing damage through keeping out of range.

CPs are going to be used mainly for rerolling dice - mainly charge distance and Lelith's Invul.

Critique and Comments are welcome. :-)
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Trueborn44
Kabalite Warrior
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PostSubject: Re: 2000pt. pure DE Battalion   Mon Jun 05 2017, 22:58

I'll be honest with you, I think scourges with heat lances are a complete waste.
Against t8 vehicles they will average (8/3) hits and (8/9) wounds and (322/81) damage, which works out be 3.98 wounds. That's only if they get in to 9" range (Outside of that it's roughly 3.1) . Which if you get turn one you have a decent chance of getting on some kind of good target, but sometimes it won't be. If you can get a character with a 5+ invuln I put this at 6.6 wounds and without around 9.9 on average.


This sounds better than it is however, because the character you want to assassinate will most likely be bubble wrapped by another unit. If anything is closer in the shooting phase, you can't shoot the character. Monster hunting is easier (i.e 10+ wounds), but you will run in to the same problem you have with hunting vehicles, as 4 wounds is nothing to them. The venom might protect them, but if the opponent is smart he'll charge it, forcing you to fall back which will prevent your scourges from firing. Overall, I don't think they're great and I think the days of heatlances being scary are over.

If you want something dead that badly, find the extra 73 points and get two Voidravens with Scythes. If both hit their target with scythes and bombs turn 1 they average closer to 10 wounds against t8 3+ vehicles and are much better at the aforementioned bubbled character hunting because of their mortal wound bombs and multi wound scythes. They will also draw fire equally well from your other vehicles and it's split up across two vehicles with more wounds than a venom that are equally hard to hit. By all means though, test them.

This is a new edition and maybe my math hammer and pessimism about their survivability (I honestly think they'll be dead by your 2nd turn almost every game) might not do them justice. To me scourges are 70 pt mobile objective grabbers that feel slightly too weeny to make a priority.

Not a fan of blast pistols on small Kabalite squads either, because a 10pt upgrade on a 35pt squad that is very situational doesn't seem great and I don't think they're a substitute for lances, because their range is so short. I kinda like it on the Bloodbrides but that's because I feel like if they make it in to combat they might get a couple of good shots off. I'm more in favour of agonisers if you're taking anything bar a blaster on Kabalites, simply because they're cheaper. I'm not really a fan of 5 man Kabalite squads either this edition, because model numbers on objectives is the aim of the game.

I also have a feeling 9 Incubi and an Archon is massive overkill, simply because against marines that's dished out over 12 wounds before the Archon has even swung. The numbers help with overwatch shots but you have raiders for those!

Quite cynical when it comes to bloodbrides as well to be honest, that's probably more down to how wyches in general have faired since 5th though than any hard evidence.
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aurynn
Incubi


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Join date : 2013-04-23

PostSubject: Re: 2000pt. pure DE Battalion   Tue Jun 06 2017, 07:40

Well let me explain myself then. :-)

Heat Lances are still scary IMO, especially when the army does have means to blast its way up to the character. But what they are even more - they are a juicy target. I don't care if they are dead T2 as long as they will eat the shots meant for the assault troops. :-) With Blasters they would probably be ignored. I have done the math on HLs and I know I could statistically do better, but they are still a potential of 24 Wounds minus invul. Ignore that at your own peril. :-D Venom gives them 25" melta threat range. So while I agree that outside Venom they are not a good choice, inside the Venom they are almost 300pts unit with ability to seriously threaten a primarch or LOW. I will pray for the enemy to shoot them. :-D And I hate spamming units and weapons too.
And dont forget I do not HAVE to deploy them in the Venom. :-)

Voidravens I considered. But with the huge amount of flyers that will be appearing on tables, the very bad maneuverability of our planes and their model count (due to the objectives), they are bound to end on the shelf. They bring nothing important to the table in this particular list. I would much rather buy 2 disintegrator Raiders.

Blast pistols on Kabalites are great since I can shoot them if the Venom is in CC. They add a nasty wound potential and they pay themselves with just one dead marine. In addition, I plan to get the Sybarites in combat if needed. Thats why the Agoni is there. Between Agonis and Blast Pistols, the three Sybarites can kill Monsters, etc.

I agree that 9 incubi and Archon are overkill. On purpose. Their job is to overrun and consolidate in a new combat. OFC they are still two units so I can easily charge them into separate units. Same as with Brides and Lelith.

Wyches always worked well for me even when everyone stomped and burned their models. Never understood why people hate them so much. They were difficult to play, but very rewarding.

EDIT: OTOH... the Voidravens are probably one of the few units in the games capable of making surgical strikes against units behind units... Characters are separate units too now... Synapse creatures, etc... hmmm...
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Trueborn44
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PostSubject: Re: 2000pt. pure DE Battalion   Tue Jun 06 2017, 10:42

If you're going to ignore stats, ignore stats on the Voidravens as well. 1 of them has a potential to do 18 wounds pre invulnerable and 3 mortal wounds on a vehicle a or monster and up to 10 on a unit.

The point I'm trying to make here is that they're both very very killy units at their top end, but one has a better chance of doing it consistently and being a valid threat for a lot longer because it's more difficult to kill. The thing that's going to kill your Venom is the same thing that is going to kill your Raider full of assault Troops (and being honest killing 5 Scourges after that isn't hard). However, with the Voidravens you have two units with higher wounds than the venom and that are equally hard to hit, but still have to be dealt with early to prevent them doing a lot of damage and both will be drawing the same kind of fire that will disrupt the meat of your army.

You're right that small arms fire would go towards Scourges that could be going towards your disembarked infantry, but it's 5 men with 4 ups and T3. 10 bolters can stunt them. I'd also say that you're wrong on the maneuverability front, simply because arcs of fire are gone and these guys can shoot out of their engines if they want (for fluff reasons, imagine them doing the bad ass rolls and flips these pilots are supposedly capable of!) .

They're not going to win any contested objectives that's for sure. Even if it's crippled and limping around on 1 wound though, it can still grab back field or uncontested (which if the rest of your list goes to plan they will be, it's going to be a bloody affair for the enemy lol) take linebreaker and generally be a nuisance. I wouldn't hold out that hope for a single unit of Scourges.

I wouldn't even call it spamming, it's two units with the same profile and you have used that other times in your list. 2 Fliers looks imposing and generally screams "kill me" more than 5 men in bird suits Wink

The reason I don't like the idea of shooting them out of the venom is because it means your opponent has elected to stay in combat until the shooting phase, which means your opponent wants to be there. If you're using the Venoms to eat over watch that makes sense, but to me you want to be disengaging ASAP after that because their job is done and they're better served shooting units that close to them, which the guys inside can't do if you fall back from combat. You could be right that it's worth it later in the game once PfP starts to stack up a bit though.

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aurynn
Incubi


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PostSubject: Re: 2000pt. pure DE Battalion   Tue Jun 06 2017, 14:03

I get what you mean and stats-wise and even statistically you are right. However I seldom play against people who play only stats and statistics. Psychology is a large part of the game. These scourges will either be discounted as insignificant or considered dangerous and shot. They will very seldom be considered inbetweens. Especially riding in a venom trying to get in T1.

BUT... this does not invalidate what you said.

As for flyers. I sooo much want to use them. Voidraven is a gorgeous model and I have 3 RWJs. Both are amazing in terms of firepower, but still... something is putting me off of using them.

Anyway, not to dwell too long at this. Its a first list. Testing list. Thats why it is a little old-fashioned with oddities. I need to get some matches played and see the performance of the units, how many CPs will I need approximately, etc.

Thanks for your input.
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Trueborn44
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PostSubject: Re: 2000pt. pure DE Battalion   Tue Jun 06 2017, 14:58

No problem mate! Glad to discuss it with somebody. As we've both said, theory crafting and mathhammer can only take you so far and at the end of the day, the units need tested and tested in your own meta. Hope it works well!
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