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wormfromhell
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PostSubject: Unit collaboration in 8th   Mon Jun 05 2017, 08:20

How could we use units together in 8th? maybe blaster born in a venom or dissie raider and incubi in a venom to hunt heavy infantry/monsters. The blaster born act as a threat so that if they fall back from the incubi, they will be shot. Heck, maybe have them all in one transport.

Wyches/wracks and kabalites could also be a nice combo to attack weaker units. combat units in venoms and kabalites maybe in raiders? or bigger combat units in raiders?

I think that the key will be that we have groups of units that target similar units so that we can efficiently cripple and kill threats.

What do you guys think? maybe even deep-striking hellions/scourge/mandrakes together?
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Unit collaboration in 8th   Mon Jun 05 2017, 08:32

Well until we see how the meta is going to be (not the full meta but the general one) we dont know yet.

Meta could be
Vehicles with cheap troops?
Effective 10mans with many weapons to splitfire?
MSU?
Hoard?
Fliers?
Psychic heave?

Until we see more its to hard to tell.

At my local we just been trying anything and everything out for now.

I can tell you this tho, all SM will use Storm Ravens, all Necrons will Vehicle spam, Melee is easy to get into if you wanted a melee army, and Psychic can be just as strong due to Smite.

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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Unit collaboration in 8th   Mon Jun 05 2017, 11:08

Use cannonfodder units! Now charging at first turn is a thing, and you want to protect your best units. And no, Veichles doesn't protect anymore because if you fall back with a Transport, the unit inside CANNOT shoot that turn.

So the opponent can literally silence your embarked units by simply engage the Transport. Take care of it!


PS: It's nice that now Beasts are Elite if u bring a packmaster. Khymerae are useful as cannonfodder units, they are cheap, fast, with large base size. Razorwing Flock even more, just 7 points.
I like Fiends too, but as a fast punchy unit transport-free.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Unit collaboration in 8th   Mon Jun 05 2017, 11:26

Beastmaster is an Elite but the beastpacks themselves are FA and each tpy eof beast counts as a different unit, 1 Beastmaster = 1 Out of Slot Beast Pack.

This is important b.c one of the game modes is kill points 2 Beastmasters with 2 Beast packs and a 3rd one using a FA slot is 5 kill points. But its also GREAT for MSU!

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Unit collaboration in 8th   Mon Jun 05 2017, 12:09

Beastmasters are 60 (!!!!) points now, and an Elite slot. Each one lets you bring 1 Beast Pack (1-6 Fiends OR 2-12 Khymerae OR 1-12 Flocks) without taking a slot. Otherwise, each of those units is 1 Fast Attack slot (and Ld 4). Razorwing Flocks were amazing in 5e, crap in 7e and somehow even worse in 8e! T2 means even Bolters are going to be wounding on 2+ and having a 7+ save is really not going to help!

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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Unit collaboration in 8th   Mon Jun 05 2017, 12:12

@amishprn86 wrote:
Beastmaster is an Elite but the beastpacks themselves are FA and each tpy eof beast counts as a different unit, 1 Beastmaster = 1 Out of Slot Beast Pack.

This is important b.c one of the game modes is kill points 2 Beastmasters with 2 Beast packs and a 3rd one using a FA slot is 5 kill points. But its also GREAT for MSU!

Yea sure, I was thinking that is nice too if you want to fill up your Fast Attacks whith other choice, using Elites for beasts.
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Unit collaboration in 8th   Mon Jun 05 2017, 12:13

@Count Adhemar wrote:
Beastmasters are 60 (!!!!) points now, and an Elite slot. Each one lets you bring 1 Beast Pack (1-6 Fiends OR 2-12 Khymerae OR 1-12 Flocks) without taking a slot. Otherwise, each of those units is 1 Fast Attack slot (and Ld 4). Razorwing Flocks were amazing in 5e, crap in 7e and somehow even worse in 8e! T2 means even Bolters are going to be wounding on 2+ and having a 7+ save is really not going to help!

They cost 7 points for 4 wounds. And they are fast! Nice for cheap screen unit.
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Unit collaboration in 8th   Mon Jun 05 2017, 12:17

Do we get cover if we place them in front of our units?

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PostSubject: Re: Unit collaboration in 8th   Mon Jun 05 2017, 12:18

@CptMetal wrote:
Do we get cover if we place them in front of our units?

Nope. There's no cover between 2 bodies (neither covers, except the...walls I guess? There 1 specific scenery that provide cover in this way, but that's not a general rule).
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Unit collaboration in 8th   Mon Jun 05 2017, 12:21

@CptMetal wrote:
Do we get cover if we place them in front of our units?

Not that I know of.

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Unit collaboration in 8th   Mon Jun 05 2017, 12:27

Um.. i thought the cover rules had "if all models are at least 50% askew then they get cover" and cover is always +1 to armor.

Im sure i read that (I dont have those rules in front of me atm)

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Unit collaboration in 8th   Mon Jun 05 2017, 12:34

The only thing I've seen is that units entirely in or on a terrain feature get +1 armour save. Not seen anything about intervening models but the rules are all over the sodding place in 8e so who knows?

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Unit collaboration in 8th   Mon Jun 05 2017, 12:41

I can dbl check tomorrow.

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Imateria
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PostSubject: Re: Unit collaboration in 8th   Mon Jun 05 2017, 13:13

Infantry automatically get the +1Sv when the whole unit is in cover, everything else needs to be 50% obscured to get the same benefit, that will apply to our beasts as well as they are not Infantry.
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Eldur
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PostSubject: Re: Unit collaboration in 8th   Mon Jun 05 2017, 15:39

Does the Raider transport rule say "Incubi OR Drukhari"? If true, you couldn't mix incubi with other units, or even the Archon with them (=the end of incubi retinue).

Regarding the topic:
The first thing we can do to optimize our lists is to make use of synergies. The most obvious ones are:
- Archon + court (Leadership bubble + reroll CC hits bubble)
- Drazhar + Incubi (+1 to hit in CC bubble, worst one due to PfP)
- Succubus/Lelith + <wych cult> (reroll 1s to hit in CC bubble)
- Haemonculi/Urien + <haemonculus coven> (+1 Toughness bubble)
- Beastmaster + <drukhari beasts> (Leadership + reroll hit bubbles)
- Cronos + <Drukhari> (reroll wounds bubble + revive 1 W per turn and cronos when dealing CC damage)

Lastly, power from pain. Almost all units benefit, but mostly those who will get into CC

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Last edited by Eldur on Mon Jun 05 2017, 16:31; edited 2 times in total
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CurstAlchemist
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PostSubject: Re: Unit collaboration in 8th   Mon Jun 05 2017, 15:58

The Raider and Venom says "Incubi or Drukhari Infantry models".
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Unit collaboration in 8th   Mon Jun 05 2017, 16:09

@Eldur wrote:
Does the Raider transport rule say "Incubi OR Drukhari"? If true, you couldn't mix incubi with other units, or even the Archon with them (=the end of incubi retinue).

It says "This model can transport 10 INCUBI or DRUKHARI INFANTRY models..."

I'm honestly flummoxed over why they've done that or what it even means!

@Eldur wrote:
Regarding the topic:
The first thing we can do to optimize our lists is to make use of synergies. The most obvious ones are:
- Archon + court (Leadership bubble + reroll CC hits bubble)
- Drazhar + Incubi (+1 to hit in CC bubble, worst one due to PfP)
- Succubus/Lelith + <wych cult> (reroll 1s to hit in CC bubble)
- Haemonculi/Urien + <haemonculus coven> (+1 Toughness bubble)
- Beastmaster + <drukhari beasts> (Leadership + reroll hit bubbles)
- Cronos + <haemonculus coven> (reroll wounds bubble + revive 1 W per turn and cronos when dealing CC damage)

Archon + 4 Sslyth in a Venom at ~18" range might be a good unit. 12 poison shots from the Venom, another 12 from the Sslyth and maybe a Blaster and PGL from the Archon himself. Shame the Archon's reroll to hit doesn't work from the Venom. But the Venom gives them extrea firepower, movement and ablative wounds and if/when they disembark an enemy still has to get past a Shadowfield and 16 ablative wounds before the Archon gets what he probably has coming to him.

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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: Unit collaboration in 8th   Mon Jun 05 2017, 16:57

@CurstAlchemist wrote:
The Raider and Venom says "Incubi or Drukhari Infantry models".

Any basic programmation knowledge will state that a "OR" is not exclusive. "Incubi AND Drukhari" would mean you need to have both in your transport to be allowed. "Incubi OR Drukhari" mean that if either are in, OR if BOTH are in your transport, the condition is true.
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CurstAlchemist
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PostSubject: Re: Unit collaboration in 8th   Mon Jun 05 2017, 17:02

Yes, but in grammar a better phrasing would be to use and or (and/or), or they could have said it can transport up to 10 models of Incubi or Drukhari or both.

If the intent was to not make it exclusive to one or the other this phrasing would remove any ambiguity that is created as it is saying that they intend for it to be used by either or a combination of the two up to 10 models (in the case of the Raider, 5 models in the case of the Venom).
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Logan Frost
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PostSubject: Re: Unit collaboration in 8th   Mon Jun 05 2017, 17:34

@dumpeal wrote:
Any basic programmation knowledge will state that a "OR" is not exclusive. "Incubi AND Drukhari" would mean you need to have both in your transport to be allowed. "Incubi OR Drukhari" mean that if either are in, OR if BOTH are in your transport, the condition is true.

Upvote for boolean operators.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Unit collaboration in 8th   Mon Jun 05 2017, 17:54

When some tells you that you can take A or B, that doesnt mean both.

"You can have steak OR chicken"

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Logan Frost
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PostSubject: Re: Unit collaboration in 8th   Mon Jun 05 2017, 18:07

Transport permits embarking of Incuby OR Drukhari infantry:
Transport contains only Incubi? -> previous statement is true.
Transport contains only Drukhari? -> previous statement is true.
Transport contains both? -> previous statement is true.

Transport permits embarking of Incubi AND Drukhari indantry:
Transport contains only Incubi? -> previous statement is false.
Transport contains only Drukhari? -> previous statement is false.
Transport contains both? -> previous statement is true.

With AND you need to always embark both on none, with OR you can embark anything you want.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Unit collaboration in 8th   Mon Jun 05 2017, 18:16

Programming =/= English

Or: "Used to link alternatives"

But go ahead and play it w.e way you want, but i'm playing it as the English way not the programmers way and it will be 1 "or" the other not both.

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PostSubject: Re: Unit collaboration in 8th   Mon Jun 05 2017, 18:26

GW alluded to the index army lists being in line with the new codexes. And Frontline said the same.

I suspect we will see some Incubi units that are not Drukhari. But probably not for a while.
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Unit collaboration in 8th   Mon Jun 05 2017, 18:27

Did the Mechanicum sneak in here? Razz

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