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 Corsairs may be dropped from Gen 8.

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Old_Soul
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PostSubject: Re: Corsairs may be dropped from Gen 8.    Wed Jun 07 2017, 23:27

I agree with Teenageangst.

This hobby was about " the hobby ", modelling, collecting, theorycrating ect.

I spoke to Jez goodwin at Black library live about why they havent looked into Movies and other franchises and he said that the essence of the hobby would be distorted and not properly communicated. Thats why they have turned down many many offers from lots of companies to use their material for various media. I know this attittude is what nearly bankrup the company some years back, and they got a new CEO from like "NEXT" or something and they have been on the rise but i agree i hope the money and sharholders ( most of whom do care about the hobby ) doesnt bleed the hobby of its vitality which is a pure Grimdark universe full of underdog factions and collosal nerd outs!!

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PostSubject: Re: Corsairs may be dropped from Gen 8.    Fri Jun 23 2017, 13:56

Corsairs might as well be dead. The Corsair Prince has been removed entirely (thank you so much, FW, not like he was my favourite HQ and I spend ages converting a model for him or anything).

Corsair Void Dreamers and Barons are also gone completely.

All we're left with is Reavers, Skyreavers (i.e. Reavers with Jump Packs) and Skydancers.

Oh, and just to make their position clear, FW decided to nerf Corsair's best melee weapon. Remember how the Void Sabre was S4 AP3 Rending? Now it's a power sword. But not just any power sword! No, it's a power sword that costs at least 200% of what every other power sword costs.

In essence, FW are assuring us that even if they deign to bring the Corsair characters back, they're doomed to such regardless.

In summary, everyone at FW responsible for this decision can go sit on rusty spike.


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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Corsairs may be dropped from Gen 8.    Fri Jun 23 2017, 14:22

I thought FW basically said that the Xenos index would only contain the rules for models that they actually produce. That is why only the units that can be made from FW kits are in there. Whether they will produce an update for Corsairs I don't know but this is pretty much what I was expecting.

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PostSubject: Re: Corsairs may be dropped from Gen 8.    Fri Jun 23 2017, 14:26

@Count Adhemar wrote:
I thought FW basically said that the Xenos index would only contain the rules for models that they actually produce. That is why only the units that can be made from FW kits are in there. Whether they will produce an update for Corsairs I don't know but this is pretty much what I was expecting.

I'm sure they said that all their existing armies would get dataslates (not just the ones that they have models for).
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PostSubject: Re: Corsairs may be dropped from Gen 8.    Fri Jun 23 2017, 14:41

@The Shredder wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:
I thought FW basically said that the Xenos index would only contain the rules for models that they actually produce. That is why only the units that can be made from FW kits are in there. Whether they will produce an update for Corsairs I don't know but this is pretty much what I was expecting.

I'm sure they said that all their existing armies would get dataslates (not just the ones that they have models for).

First post in this thread:

@Old_Soul wrote:
I called forgeworld to question them, this was the answer i got :

" the current index is to get you by until we release proper campaign books for gen 8 ( of which he confessed only one has been wriiten so far ) and the models listed in the forethcoming FW index are only for units they have physical models for"

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PostSubject: Re: Corsairs may be dropped from Gen 8.    Fri Jun 23 2017, 14:43

Hmm, that's very different to what they stated elsewhere.

Disappointing either way.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Corsairs may be dropped from Gen 8.    Fri Jun 23 2017, 14:50

It's hardly surprising though. They would need to rewrite every army list they have in a ridiculously short timeframe. They already decided that they couldn't do that with 30K in the timeframe, and no doubt all rules rewriting problems have been exacerbated by the untimely death of Alan Bligh (RIP).

I would fully expect Corsairs to reappear in the future but you might have to wait a bit.

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PostSubject: Re: Corsairs may be dropped from Gen 8.    Fri Jun 23 2017, 15:01

Edit: Meh, I took to long to write an answer.

@Count Adhemar wrote:
I thought FW basically said that the Xenos index would only contain the rules for models that they actually produce. That is why only the units that can be made from FW kits are in there. Whether they will produce an update for Corsairs I don't know but this is pretty much what I was expecting.

For me, it felt more like Corsairs were a passion project of FW for a niche market.
I suspect that with all the rewriting of all the stats they have to do, Corsairs have a fairly low priority.

And creating the rules for a new army is far more work intensive than just making individual units.

I guess we will see soon enough once they announce the updated "The Doom of Mymeara".
Imo it would be about time that Corsairs are finally treated like a first class citizen and transferred into a standard GW army.

Not only to have some unique models like Princes, but also to give them greater importance in the fluff. I know... wishful thinking.

@The Shredder wrote:
Oh, and just to make their position clear, FW decided to nerf Corsair's best melee weapon. Remember how the Void Sabre was S4 AP3 Rending? Now it's a power sword. But not just any power sword! No, it's a power sword that costs at least 200% of what every other power sword costs.

I think it is also pretty ridiculous that a single Corsair Reaver with stock gear will cost 18 points.
Of course you wouldn't keep the overpriced Lasblaster, but still.

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PostSubject: Re: Corsairs may be dropped from Gen 8.    Fri Jun 23 2017, 22:12

especially when a shardcarbine is free and better in pretty much every way
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PostSubject: Re: Corsairs may be dropped from Gen 8.    Fri Jun 23 2017, 23:36

Just went through the leaks, and i must say, i wouldnt play them now, they just look like trash.

It really feels they dont want you to play them now.

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PostSubject: Re: Corsairs may be dropped from Gen 8.    Sat Jun 24 2017, 00:34

they are clearly not meant to be a stand alone force anymore
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PostSubject: Re: Corsairs may be dropped from Gen 8.    Sat Jun 24 2017, 01:04

Even so, they have a Power sword over dbl the cost, they cant take 2 special weapons per 5 now. And they have to kill something in overwatch to only move 3"

They are over costed, under powered and lost their feel.

I turly feel sorry for full Corsair players, i'm glade i only have a hand full of units, if i had a full 3k armies worth i would be emailing FW everyday and sending letters (and call if i could).

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PostSubject: Re: Corsairs may be dropped from Gen 8.    Sat Jun 24 2017, 09:53

This is an outright travesty against Corsairs players.

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PostSubject: Re: Corsairs may be dropped from Gen 8.    Sat Jun 24 2017, 10:39

@TeenageAngst wrote:
This is an outright travesty against Corsairs players.

It's just bussiness. Why support an army that maybe 1% of players is interested in, when you can shift rescources to more valuable assets?

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PostSubject: Re: Corsairs may be dropped from Gen 8.    Sat Jun 24 2017, 11:08

@mightydoughnut wrote:
@TeenageAngst wrote:
This is an outright travesty against Corsairs players.

It's just bussiness. Why support an army that maybe 1% of players is interested in, when you can shift rescources to more valuable assets?

The thing is though, does it really take that much time and effort to do it? It's not like they're having to create it from scratch because virtually all the stuff is there already. They just need to convert it from 7th to 8th.

What's more, even on that front, GW has already done most of the legwork for them in that they already know the stats and point costs of virtually all the weapons available to Corsairs along with having a ton of similar weapons available for comparison.

And even in terms of the units, the Corsair Prince was already similar to an Autarch and so they'd already have a great baseline for what those stats should cost in 8th. They also know what Eldar Jetbikes will do and that Jet Packs have basically become Jump Packs (and they know how those change a model's stats as well).

It seems really simple to me, and something that they could have easily done as a good will gesture to their customers (the people who, for example, bought their Corsair rules and upgrade kits).
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PostSubject: Re: Corsairs may be dropped from Gen 8.    Sat Jun 24 2017, 11:21

Well, problem is, it is not that easy as it looks. First of all, as I said - it's a bussiness and any form of spending must have a good reason - if company gives out free stuff etc. it's 99% not out of goodness of the heart, but a well-planned bussiness move. Speaking from experience as a member of boardgame creator company, I gotta say there is little to be gained from spending resources on Corsairs, especially since at the moment there are only two kits available and they are strongly suggesting that they are aestethic-only, (the weapons descrpition hint at what Aeldari rules to use them as) speaking harshly - why would they give a damn about a product they can't sell?
Second of all, even if it's only a bit of time and resources, they may not have even that. A gaming company can be a really hectic place, especially when you are making a complete face turn for your whole bussiness, like GW did in last 2 years.

Tl:Dr - unless FW decides to create new kits for Corsairs, they will most likely not create rules for bascially a non-existent faction.

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PostSubject: Re: Corsairs may be dropped from Gen 8.    Sat Jun 24 2017, 14:11

@mightydoughnut wrote:
@TeenageAngst wrote:
This is an outright travesty against Corsairs players.

It's just bussiness. Why support an army that maybe 1% of players is interested in, when you can shift rescources to more valuable assets?

They only needed to dedicated 2-3 hours to them for rules, they didnt need to make models for it. Players already have armies for them.

Edit: I ran a business for years (I ran someone else business technically but i ran it fully).

So i understand, but for me it was about what i did and not the money, i put in a little extra work to make my customers happier i knew they would stay with me.

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PostSubject: Re: Corsairs may be dropped from Gen 8.    Sat Jun 24 2017, 14:24

@amishprn86 wrote:


They only needed to dedicated 2-3 hours to them for rules, they didnt need to make models for it. Players already have armies for them.

And how do you know that? On what basis do you say this? Cause sure, some guy on the internet can throw out some rules in 2-3 hours without playtests or giving a crap about unimportant stuff like balance, but still we are getting back to the bussiness part: you have to include playtests, which require precious workhours, rule writting, which require precious workhours, consider all the relations and combos/counters that will be born from this model, which require precious workhours, consider if this might or might not boost sales/hinder selling of other models that may have similiar roles in armies, which require precious workhours.

And we are talking here about something relatively small, which in turn, gives little payoff for your bussiness and even these 2-3 (lol) hours can be dedicated on creating rules, testing and all the unimportant silly bussiness stuff for units and armies that will make a profit.

Tl:Dr - It's better from bussiness point of view to invest these 2-3 (sorry, but it just cracks me up whenever I see it) hours into more popular armies, like CEldar.

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PostSubject: Re: Corsairs may be dropped from Gen 8.    Sat Jun 24 2017, 14:56

They have a system in place now, wouldnt take long to get the other few units with rules.

Not saying make a full rules set, just saying let them have the Baron, Prince, Maelstrike unit and the other 2-3 units.

Its just stat changes at this point.

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PostSubject: Re: Corsairs may be dropped from Gen 8.    Sat Jun 24 2017, 16:13

I think the problem goes deeper, as a direct translation of 7th ed can only go so far. There are many aspects of Corsairs that cannot be translated directly. Most prominently Deep Strike, different coteries or psychic powers.

GW purposefully removed general special rules, so all rules and wargear of a unit must find their place on one side of a book (with exception of army wide ones). This was made to mitigate rule bloat and it now bites corsairs into their arses.

Special rules are not supposed to be given out like candy as before. Especially the "First Prince" rule on the Corsair Prince is pretty unthinkable in the framework of 8th edition. And wargear like the Shadowfield are USR now.


For 8th edition Corsairs needs some rethinking, which goes beyond rewriting rules and wargear and goes hand in hand with restructuring the army as a whole. This must include exhaustive playtesting and constantly tweaking rules in the process.

The only reason why there was (thankfully) such a huge shift in power in 8th edition was because GW finally took balancing serious.

Could they have simply made some quick rules for the Baron and Prince? Of course.
But I bet their rules would be equally bad as the ones for Reavers and you still wouldn't be able to field a proper Corsair army.

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PostSubject: Re: Corsairs may be dropped from Gen 8.    Sat Jun 24 2017, 16:17

@The Strange Dark One wrote:
I think the problem goes deeper, as a direct translation of 7th ed can only go so far. There are many aspects of Corsairs that cannot be translated directly. Most prominently Deep Strike, different coteries or psychic powers.

GW purposefully removed general special rules, so all rules and wargear of a unit must find their place on one side of a book (with exception of army wide ones). This was made to mitigate rule bloat and it now bites corsairs into their arses.

Special rules are not supposed to be given out like candy as before. Especially the "First Prince" rule on the Corsair Prince is pretty unthinkable in the framework of 8th edition. And wargear like the Shadowfield are USR now.


For 8th edition Corsairs needs some rethinking, which goes beyond rewriting rules and wargear and goes hand in hand with restructuring the army as a whole. This must include exhaustive playtesting and constantly tweaking rules in the process.

The only reason why there was (thankfully) such a huge shift in power in 8th edition was because GW finally took balancing serious.

Could they have simply made some quick rules for the Baron and Prince? Of course.
But I bet their rules would be equally bad as the ones for Reavers and you still wouldn't be able to field a proper Corsair army.

Exactly, the problem is much more complex than just simple rule update, not to mention that they must be pretty busy with main projects, like new Codices etc.

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PostSubject: Re: Corsairs may be dropped from Gen 8.    Sat Jun 24 2017, 18:56

Quote :
The only reason why there was (thankfully) such a huge shift in power in 8th edition was because GW finally took balancing serious.

I want "8th edition is more balanced" engraved on my tombstone.

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PostSubject: Re: Corsairs may be dropped from Gen 8.    Sat Jun 24 2017, 19:14

@TeenageAngst wrote:
Quote :
The only reason why there was (thankfully) such a huge shift in power in 8th edition was because GW finally took balancing serious.

I want "8th edition is more balanced" engraved on my tombstone.

You must tell me more exactly where I said that. I said there was a "shift in power" which is true for factions like Orks and Guard that were on the low end of competitiveness. It also applies to factions like Necrons and also CWE which were toned down to a more reasonable level.

Is it balanced? Idk, it is too early to say and it will continue to need an active effort on GW side to tweak the stats and rules further. And we don't even have real codices yet.

But what we got so far is a hell of a lot better than the 2++ rerollable cheese and 300pts Wraithknight of 7th.

GW could have easily just let some interns do the balancing, call it 8th edition and sell it as the new big thing. But they didn't.

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PostSubject: Re: Corsairs may be dropped from Gen 8.    Sat Jun 24 2017, 19:27

Quote :
But what we got so far is a hell of a lot better than the 2++ rerollable cheese and 300pts Wraithknight of 7th.

Cheese? You have no idea the level of unbalanced we are about to have now. Conscript blobs, Brimstone spam, Bird lists, Drone clouds... this is going to make 7th edition look like a well thought out streamlined system.

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PostSubject: Re: Corsairs may be dropped from Gen 8.    Sat Jun 24 2017, 20:19

@TeenageAngst wrote:
Quote :
But what we got so far is a hell of a lot better than the 2++ rerollable cheese and 300pts Wraithknight of 7th.

Cheese? You have no idea the level of unbalanced we are about to have now. Conscript blobs, Brimstone spam, Bird lists, Drone clouds... this is going to make 7th edition look like a well thought out streamlined system.

And you base this claims on...?

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