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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Tue Jun 06 2017, 13:32

@Skulnbonz wrote:
@CptMetal wrote:

@Skulnbonz
What kind of attitude is that? Reality check: This forum is made to help Dark Eldar players. It´s meant to be a community. Not some hostile environment. And whining before you put a model down is not a sign of a "strong" player FYI.

And how is pretending everything is great going to HELP players looking to get better?
Sorry to burst your bubble, but everyone does not get a trophy, we are not all winners and there is no Santa Claus.

What you take as "Hostile" others take as criticism. Try not to use your personal perception to paint an entire community. How do you make an army better? by minimizing the weaknesses and maximizing the strengths.  But to do that, you have to POINT OUT THE WEAKNESSES.

Geez!

This is basic stuff here.

That being said, I think there are quite a few exploitable builds that will surprise people that Dark Eldar can pull off. Sadly, Hellions did not make the cut (and i was really wishing they would).
That is all that I have said negative about DE in 8th. if you want to call that "Hostile", then you are the exact type of person i was referring to when i said not to cater to them, because it will just drag the quality of advice given down.

Saying:
"A sucks"
"B is totally bad!"
"We are doomed because..."
"This is unfair because..."

That is not critisicm. That´s laying down, whining and waiting to die.
What we need is:
"A sucks but we can use C to..."
"B is bad but in this situation you..."
"We are in deep trouble if the enemy pulls this trick XYZ. Letßs figureout a counter."

It´s not about getting a trophy. Why is that so difficult to understand? It´s about the solutions.
Of course the weaknesses have to be pointed out, but at some point, there need to be solutions. Just pointing out is not helpful. That´s not meant as a personal insult or an attack, but if we start early to develop tactics and solutions, maybe we´ll see Drukhari at the top tables again.

Imagine that: The True kin: ruling the tournaments! cheers

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Tue Jun 06 2017, 14:46

@CptMetal wrote:

Saying:
"A sucks"
"B is totally bad!"
"We are doomed because..."
"This is unfair because..."

That is not critisicm. That´s laying down, whining and waiting to die.  

I agree with you about the first two, but I'm not sure about the second two. Positive or not, at least they're actually giving reasons. You might not agree with either their reasons or their conclusions (or think that said conclusions are exaggerated), but at least it's something you can discuss.

Regardless, by the same token, do you also object to:
"A is great"
"B is amazeballs!"
"We will win everything because..."
"This is completely fair because..."

I mean, if you object to what you consider to not criticism but whining, should you not also object to the opposite - which is useless positivity?

I mean, if what you want is tactics/solutions, then "A is great." is surely no more valuable to the discussion than "A sucks."?

@CptMetal wrote:

What we need is:
"A sucks but we can use C to..."
"B is bad but in this situation you..."
"We are in deep trouble if the enemy pulls this trick XYZ. Letßs figureout a counter."

I understand what you're saying, but isn't this a bit idealistic?

For example:
"A sucks but we can use C to..." That might help tournament players, but will be of little help to anyone who loved A and doesn't want to just buy a different model to make his army function.

Alternatively, it could be that the person saying that A sucks has no experience with C (and so isn't aware that it's a good replacement). Hence, this person might not be in a position to extol the merits of C. He may only be able to state his problem, in the hope that someone else will be able to offer solutions (in this case, switching A for C).

"We are in deep trouble if the enemy pulls this trick XYZ. Letßs figureout a counter." That's reasonable, but only assuming that a reasonable solution exists. If there really isn't a solution or if it basically requires people to invest in very specific armies solely to counter that one build, I can understand people being rather disgruntled by it.


The thing is though, I actually do agree with you that it's best to keep the Tactics (and List Advice) threads as positive as possible and to not let them descend into endless complaining with no tactics in sight. All I'm trying to say is that, depending on the problem, there might not be a satisfactory solution. Hence, I don't think you can remove negativity altogether. However, if there are any threads we should strive to make as positive as possible, it's the Tactics and Army List ones.

Where we disagree, I think, is that I don't see a need to apply this principle to threads in the General Discussion or News areas.

(Note: I'm assuming here that the complaints are at least on-topic. I can understand you being annoyed if someone asks for advice on how to paint his wyches and a dozen people reply with "wyches suck". confused )
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Tue Jun 06 2017, 15:04

@The Shredder wrote:
@CptMetal wrote:

Saying:
"A sucks"
"B is totally bad!"
"We are doomed because..."
"This is unfair because..."

That is not critisicm. That´s laying down, whining and waiting to die.  

I agree with you about the first two, but I'm not sure about the second two. Positive or not, at least they're actually giving reasons. You might not agree with either their reasons or their conclusions (or think that said conclusions are exaggerated), but at least it's something you can discuss.

Regardless, by the same token, do you also object to:
"A is great"
"B is amazeballs!"
"We will win everything because..."
"This is completely fair because..."

I mean, if you object to what you consider to not criticism but whining, should you not also object to the opposite - which is useless positivity?

I mean, if what you want is tactics/solutions, then "A is great." is surely no more valuable to the discussion than "A sucks."?

You´re right. That shouldn´t be done either.

@The Shredder wrote:

@CptMetal wrote:

What we need is:
"A sucks but we can use C to..."
"B is bad but in this situation you..."
"We are in deep trouble if the enemy pulls this trick XYZ. Letßs figureout a counter."

I understand what you're saying, but isn't this a bit idealistic?

For example:
"A sucks but we can use C to..." That might help tournament players, but will be of little help to anyone who loved A and doesn't want to just buy a different model to make his army function.

Alternatively, it could be that the person saying that A sucks has no experience with C (and so isn't aware that it's a good replacement). Hence, this person might not be in a position to extol the merits of C. He may only be able to state his problem, in the hope that someone else will be able to offer solutions (in this case, switching A for C).

In that case, make clear that you´re looking for a solution and you aren´t just complaining. Otherwise you´re right.

@The Shredder wrote:

"We are in deep trouble if the enemy pulls this trick XYZ. Letßs figureout a counter." That's reasonable, but only assuming that a reasonable solution exists. If there really isn't a solution or if it basically requires people to invest in very specific armies solely to counter that one build, I can understand people being rather disgruntled by it.

Of course I understand when people are disgruntled. But that kind of behaviour isn´t helping. Neither them nor anybody else. If they want help or input of ideas, that kind of negativity isn´t creating an environment that helps people come up with new stuff.

@The Shredder wrote:
The thing is though, I actually do agree with you that it's best to keep the Tactics (and List Advice) threads as positive as possible and to not let them descend into endless complaining with no tactics in sight. All I'm trying to say is that, depending on the problem, there might not be a satisfactory solution. Hence, I don't think you can remove negativity altogether. However, if there are any threads we should strive to make as positive as possible, it's the Tactics and Army List ones.

Where we disagree, I think, is that I don't see a need to apply this principle to threads in the General Discussion or News areas.  

(Note: I'm assuming here that the complaints are at least on-topic. I can understand you being annoyed if someone asks for advice on how to paint his wyches and a dozen people reply with "wyches suck". confused )

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Vathek
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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Tue Jun 06 2017, 17:32

Although posting in a venting thread about how bad venting is might be a little daft.
One of the things I'd like is reasons for the decisions I disagree with.
Q Why was wwp removed?
A we felt it provided too much mobility for an already fast army.
Q why are our skimmers slow
A because we hate you.
Q why can't archon take more weapons or reaver bikes/skyboards
A wait for the codex  (which is due in the next 6 months/10 years w.e.)

Then I'd feel happier with the rebalancing.


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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Tue Jun 06 2017, 18:39

You guys are right. I shouldn't complain about complaining in AV thread about complaining about GW.
Sorry. But I hope I could explain myself nevertheless.

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The Dark Eldar Codex sucks. You probably won just because your enemy loaded his dice to loose. Never forget this mantra and spread the word. Mention it in every discussion possible, people can´t get enough of that valuable information and need to be reminded regularely.
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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Tue Jun 06 2017, 18:43

My problem is not with GW its with the people going "ITS GOING TO BE AWESOME!!!" "SHUT UP YOU CANT SAY THAT ITS NOT GOING TO BE AWESOME YOU HAVE NOT SEEN THE RULES YET!" I realy dont like those guys, with GW´s track record id say anyone who wants to be a optimistic and go "this will be a dumbed down version" "This will be crap" "All they needed to do was fix a few things in 7th" I wont blame you. I think this will be a fun edition and all but i think i will miss alot of the depth and complexity of 7th.

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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Tue Jun 06 2017, 19:03

This edition from all accounts I've seen is basically a "Protoss Deathball: the game"

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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Tue Jun 06 2017, 19:06

Guys, with all the optimistic and marketing things happening to the game lets not forget simple truth - they are resetting game! They removed much to rebuild, to simplify too complex system.

Well - they did it, but hasnt rebuilded yet! Its a green field pretty much. What they say about new indexes and rulebook with cool new books and starter, its pretty much just a marketing, create hype to generate sales. Game isnt really fleshed out, there arent codexes yet, there hasnt been feedback on a massive scale.

You can either go along and play this greenfield game or stick to the 7th till some meat in the form of codexes and new rulebook (a.k.a. chapter apoved) will come out in the january. Thats the choices. I think il stick to the 7th so far, play Armageddon, kill team rules, apoc rules for 7th, i havent got too much time to really play with it till now.

Some time will pass and it'l be quite another game. Codexes will change everything. Rulebook will grow - its the way of things. It happened before.

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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Tue Jun 06 2017, 19:08

Yeah this isn't a game, it's a poorly written skeleton they're trying to use to prop up some stupid new idea of "game".

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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Tue Jun 06 2017, 19:26

@TeenageAngst wrote:
Yeah this isn't a game, it's a poorly written skeleton they're trying to use to prop up some stupid new idea of "game".

This "thread" is for meaningful rants, be there such a thing, and not endless re-iterations of I-don't-like-it. If you have nothing new to add, then move along.
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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Tue Jun 06 2017, 19:30

https://media0.giphy.com/media/13d2jHlSlxklVe/giphy.gif

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The Dark Eldar Codex sucks. You probably won just because your enemy loaded his dice to loose. Never forget this mantra and spread the word. Mention it in every discussion possible, people can´t get enough of that valuable information and need to be reminded regularely.
+++++END OF TRANSMISSION+++++
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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Tue Jun 06 2017, 19:39

@CptMetal wrote:
https://media0.giphy.com/media/13d2jHlSlxklVe/giphy.gif
.

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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Tue Jun 06 2017, 20:45

The topic said nothing about meaningfull. Let Angst rant! Let Angst rant! Let Angst rant!
Join in the chanting or let it die up to YOU.

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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Tue Jun 06 2017, 21:24

This topic was explicitly designed to contain the negative spam and let off steam. For everyone, not just me. Half of it is downright hilarious. I have literally no idea what you expect at this point.

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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Tue Jun 06 2017, 21:57

@Vathek wrote:
Although posting in a venting thread about how bad venting is might be a little daft.
One of the things I'd like is reasons for the decisions I disagree with.
Q Why was wwp removed?
A we felt it provided too much mobility for an already fast army.
Q why are our skimmers slow
A because we hate you.
Q why can't archon take more weapons or reaver bikes/skyboards
A wait for the codex  (which is due in the next 6 months/10 years w.e.)

Then I'd feel happier with the rebalancing.

I'm with this guy!

Q I thought you said we'd be blisteringly fast?
A Sucker!
Q And wyches are the most improved unit in the game?
A Got you there didn't I!
Q what happened to the duke and baron?
A Who, what?
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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Tue Jun 06 2017, 23:05

Why does Lelith have combat drugs?

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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Wed Jun 07 2017, 01:24

@TeenageAngst wrote:
Q: Why does Lelith have combat drugs?

A: HERP DERP FLURFF SERVES NO PERP(erse)

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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Wed Jun 07 2017, 01:35

You know, ever since he sold the Star Wars franchise to Disney, I've been wondering what ol' Jorge has been doing with his retirement. GW doesn't credit their fluff writers but I wouldn't be shocked to see Lucas or Rick Berman on the writing staff.

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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Wed Jun 07 2017, 02:54

@The Red King wrote:
The Archon is hot garbage.
His huskblade costs 10 points. For no reason it's one of the only models in the game to pay for its base wargear (that nobody else can take).furthermore it's bad. How so? Well a grey knights force falchion is better strength, better ap, same damage and FREE!

Maybe get the rules right before complaining? The falchion has the EXACT same statline as the huskblade. Second, the model that uses it might have a much better statline, have better saves, be untargetable a large amount of the time... maybe that's why the Archons weapon costs more?

@TeenageAngst wrote:
Why does Lelith have combat drugs?

Because she had it to begin with and through a mix up lost it for a bit and has access to it again now? He fluff from 3rd ed had her with it

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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Wed Jun 07 2017, 05:27

@Massaen wrote:

@TeenageAngst wrote:
Why does Lelith have combat drugs?

Because she had it to begin with and through a mix up lost it for a bit and has access to it again now? He fluff from 3rd ed had her with it.

Her fluff from 5th through 7th said she doesn't take combat drugs because it would dull her nigh supernatural reflexes. I guess she gave in to peer pressure and depression after getting scraped by Yvraine. Wink

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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Wed Jun 07 2017, 09:02

@TeenageAngst wrote:
Why does Lelith have combat drugs?

Relapse?

My anti-rant rant: I love wyches. They have always worked well for me. Warriors are boring boots with no identity or purpose other than as tax for the rest of the army. They're a high floor/low ceiling unit. They won't disappoint you because you don't expect much, but they will never, ever impress you.

Wyches have at least the possibility of wowing you. If you don't expect anything from them either, they can't disappoint you. Have you ever dropped 20 strength 5 attacks on someone with a wee squad of 5? I have, and it feels great! Yes their floor is lower, they're doing Evel Knievel stunts in thongs for god's sake!

And let's be honest, we're really buying the venom, the squad inside is just filling. I've never lost a battle due to having 10 more points tied up in a troops unit than I could have. I've also never won a battle thinking "good thing I brought 5 more poison shots."

Maybe they're not the most improved unit in the army, but at least they continue to have an identity beyond "moar poison".

Also, mandrakes were awesome, shame on anyone that says otherwise. Jury is still out on new mandrakes.
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Ikol
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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Wed Jun 07 2017, 09:30

To the contrary, I have a single Sybarite that has yet to be slain on the tabletop.  He has faced down Carnifexi and Dreadknights, laughed in the face of Tau Gunlines and Necron Lords, lain low Librarians and Farseers both.

And I will never forget that one time where I got nearly completely tabled, and this singular Sybarite went on a madman's charge after the enemies Baneblade, Land Raider, Rhino and Tac Squad remnants on turn 7.



So, to the contrary, @sekac, Kabalite Warriors can impress you.

It just requires really flipping convoluted scenarios and the luck of the Laughing God himself to do so.

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Wed Jun 07 2017, 11:10

@Massaen wrote:
The falchion has the EXACT same statline as the falchion.

Really? I never would have guessed. Very Happy

@Ikol wrote:
To the contrary, I have a single Sybarite that has yet to be slain on the tabletop.  He has faced down Carnifexi and Dreadknights, laughed in the face of Tau Gunlines and Necron Lords, lain low Librarians and Farseers both.

And I will never forget that one time where I got nearly completely tabled, and this singular Sybarite went on a madman's charge after the enemies Baneblade, Land Raider, Rhino and Tac Squad remnants on turn 7.



So, to the contrary, @sekac, Kabalite Warriors can impress you.

It just requires really flipping convoluted scenarios and the luck of the Laughing God himself to do so.

lol!

Wow, that's wonderful. Sadly, I don't have an equivalent story to share with my DE (not even my HQs have that sort of luck).

The closest thing I can think of was when my IG Lord Commissar (who I modelled as Red Skull for some reason) ended up facing off for several rounds of combat first against a Biker Warboss, and against the warboss' Nob Bikers as well (the LC's own unit having been whittled away to nothing). In spite of being completely outmatched, he managed to survive for turn after turn, and was still alive when the game ended.

Nowhere near as spectacular as your Sybarite, but still amusing.
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The Red King
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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Wed Jun 07 2017, 12:13

Allow me to be more specific.

A baseline unit (say a grey knight interceptor) costs less than an Archon. Has a higher strength (thus strength user on a strength 4 unit is better than strength user on a strength 3 unit).
I was mistaken on the ap. Not to mention the falchion is more widely available to the army and adds an extra attack and is also free. That is what is commonly known as a straight upgrade.

Will put out 3 attacks with this (same statline on an. Improved body) and will thus out damage our HQ

Now of course the model in question does come in a unit but as each individual model costs less than the Archon and has a higher damage output the wound per point comparison only gets worse for the Archon from there.

Since equal points of Archon to interceptor would be 2 To a squad we have 10 attacks at strength 3 ap-2 d3 dmg versus 16 attacks at strength 4 ap-2 d3 dmg.

I'll stop complaining about our hq being out performed by basic infantry now.

I would also like to point out that I don't even think dark eldar are bad, but when our best CC HQ is the haemonculus it's readily apparent that we got a bit shafted by the confusing design decisions that went into them.

I'm not saying the Archon will lose a fight to them. I'm saying his damage output when both swinging into optimal targets is not as high.

Granted I did forget the cost of the bolter but should we factor in the 4 shot gun and their psychic abilities I do not feel it drastically improves my opinion of our HQ.


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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Wed Jun 07 2017, 12:29

A Grey knight strike marine has 3+ to hit, S4, 1 attack with a bonus for the falchions and a 3+ save and with the required storm bolter costs 21 points per model

An archon with Husk blade is 64 points, has 2+ to hit, S3, 5 attacks base and a 2++ invulnerable save.

The GK gets 2 attacks, 1.33hits, (vs T4) 0.66 wounds, (3+save) 0.44 failed saves, 0.88 wounds after the D3

The Archon gets 5 attacks, 4.16 hits, (vs T4) 1.38 wounds, (3+save) 0.93 failed saves, 1.86 wounds after the D3

So the archon is twice as good as the strike knight while costing (shockingly!) just over twice as much....

Lets pit them against each other with equal points... 3 strike knights with falchions vs the husk blade archon.

If the archon goes first, he kills 1 then takes 0.25 wounds after shadowfield and PfP... I guarantee he kills those knights before they threaten him significantly

If the GK go first, they manage 0.37 wounds after shadowfield and PfP... and he then slays 1 almost certainly.

So no - the points comparison in this case bears out that the cost of the archon and the falchion wielding strike knights are actually comparable with the 2+ to hit making up for the slightly lower S. Interceptors and purifiers are also only a single base attack and you get less of them against the archon as the cost per model goes up. The numbers only get better once you have paladins with their 4 attack falchions fighting but you are basically 1 on one given the 50+points per paladin and while the fight is closer - the Archon has the edge thanks to the 2++/6+++ against the paladin while the paladin makes do with a 4+ armour - and that's the only edge over the strike marines! With the D3 damage on the husk blade, the archon had a 1 in 3 shot of simply taking the paladin out as well.

This WS boost is a significant advantage for the archon in honesty - hitting things on 2+ means he reliably gets 4 hits every round and its not until T7 he will struggle to average a wound a turn (which in turn is D3) against most targets.

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