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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Mon Jul 31 2017, 00:03

@The Shredder wrote:

@FuelDrop wrote:
I hate Ynnari.

Not that I disagree but can I ask why?

The Ynnari faction was introduced in a ham-fisted way that seemed to revolve around making everyone else look bad in order to make them look good. They set up an idiotic conflict in commorragh that leaves Vect and Malice both looking like morons, killed off an eldar craftworld for more or less kicks, and everyone seems to love them rather than taking one look at that walking abomination and jumping to the conclusion that it's some variant of a keeper of secrets, because that thing looks as Slaaneshi as frak.

I am more than open to the concept of a uniting force among the Eldar. I have no real problems with the mechanical implementation. I just very much dislike the handling of them lore wise, and the fact that they are likely to steal development time from either fleshing out the Dark Eldar or else from turning a background Xenos faction into a playable army, which would have been a solid alternative.

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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Mon Jul 31 2017, 00:04

This guy gets it on a level I've been trying to explain for 6 months.

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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Mon Jul 31 2017, 00:29

For full disclosure, I actually have all the Eldar subfactions except Ynnari. My primary army is actually Uthwe Eldar, who I have been playing since early 5th edition. I remember back when Splinter weapons were ST 3!

That is why I often compare DE to CE. Because I have extensive experience playing both (though ironically I stay away from the tough sections of both armies, having neither Covens nor Wraith). It's why I look at things like Vipers having 20" move and the option of advancing 2d6 inches, or Wave Serpents being faster, tougher, and better armed than raiders, and shake my head.

Personally, I would have preferred if the unifying faction was the Harlequins, who've been working on the task since the fall rather than the new guy who's been around for 5 minutes.

I should also add that I dislike Primerus marines, but not because I'm a luddite who cannot take change. I dislike them because they take Space Marines and make them second stringers. I dislike them because they are going into armies like Space Wolves and Dark Angels who would not accept them under any circumstances. I dislike them because their lore is poorly done, and the same general thing could have instead been done by making them new veteran specializations with new equipment and training rather than retconning in a massive army of SUPER!!! space marines which are better in every way and are awesome and cool! Come on you guys! Like them! LIKE THEM!!!

Just to prove I am not anti-new-stuff, I will say that I love the fleshed out Thousand Sons and Death Guard, even if the Thousand Sons sole purpose was for Girly-man to kill them off.

The returning Primarchs plotline is something I am actually rather okay with, with a few stipulations: No bringing back Sanguinious, Horus, Night Haunter or Ferrus. They got killed off VERY thoroughly. As in: Killed by a demigod, killed by an actual god, digested, decapitated and with head turned into puppet. All the other primarchs are fair game though, and it would be nice to see Logar get off his ass for the twilight of the imperium.

I do think that GW needs to stop giving the Space Marines toys that cut into other army's specializations. The Repulsor grav tank is a perfect example, outclassing all the grav specialized armies in every way except speed, and by a considerable margin too. Let the Space Marines do their own thing, rather than have them outdo the specialists at their specialty.

One thing that could warm me up to the Primerus concept is a space marine civil war, with chapters rebelling against being phased out for the new guys, maybe fleeing to the cut off regions of the Imperium so we end up with two distinct imperial factions, one with classic space marines and one with Primerus.

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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Mon Jul 31 2017, 00:33

You'll notice this is a recurring theme in the way GW's been handling the lore. "They could have done X without ruining anything." But they choose to ruin it, almost universally in fact. If there is a thing and they have the opportunity, they will ruin that thing. It doesn't matter if it's Biel-Tan or Commorragh or the lore of Dark Angels/Space Wolves or what.

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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Mon Jul 31 2017, 00:39

I would not be surprised to discover that this was a petty attempt by GW to get back at the people asking for storyline progression: "You want more storyline?!? HERE! HERE's your damn storyline! Whatcha gonna do, cry about it?!?"

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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Mon Jul 31 2017, 00:48

No, they're going to make a dumptruck of money because they're attracting an entirely new audience and they're keeping their attention span with shiny new toys. This comes at the expense of old fans though. I never wanted story progression. I was perfectly content sitting at my desk, painting my little plastic space elfs, thinking up little stories for them, and converting them to match sometimes. Because I was told to forge the narrative. Now all those stories are trash because the plot advanced and soon half my army won't be able to be brought with the other half.

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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Mon Jul 31 2017, 01:08

The source of the night haunted death has always been shakey at best, I've always heard that the account seemed like it was tampered with so I'd be fine with night hunter coming back, the rest of your selection I agree with....... assuming the horus on the throne theory is wrong


Last edited by Jim_the_archon on Mon Jul 31 2017, 01:13; edited 2 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Mon Jul 31 2017, 01:12

@Jim_the_archon wrote:
The source of the night haunted death has ashtrays been shakey at best, I've always heard that the account seemed like it was tampered with so I'd be five with night hunter chiming back, the rest of your selection I agree with....... assuming the horus on the throne theory is wrong

Yeah, fair enough. If they do it well then I can see the Night Haunter coming back, though I would prefer they didn't because it would render his entire last words thing kinda redundant. I like his whole 'suicide by assassin to prove his moral high ground to himself' thing.

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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Mon Jul 31 2017, 01:14

I entirely agree but I was just saying the option is there
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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Mon Jul 31 2017, 01:24

Just having seen what they've put out today on warhammer community about the realise of grey knights and chaos on the same day my initial response was "great two armies that are going to get a half arsed release and no new models" then I saw the thing about grand masters being able to mount up in dreadknights now so you can take full dreaknight armies and as someone who's being playing grey knights for 13 years I went: "frak that crap" I'm now fully on board with not liking the direction they're going with this edition and we're only 3 codex's in. But on the bright side I suppose I can now get Voldus on his own....... the most boring model in the woke gathering storm series that I never wanted anyway. Though this does give me hope I will be able to get the models I want from the stores without having to buy the whole box sets (celestine and the visarch)
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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Mon Jul 31 2017, 03:29

I agree that the story line is taking a weird turn with Eldar and Imperium teaming up but I personally like the Primaris Space Marines. I feel like they're bringing back the "professionalism" to SM armies.

Sure you can argue that Space Marines were and always have been the best "super" soldiers, but with things like Tyranids and Orks that constantly evolve and get scarier and scarier, it was time for a facelift for the SMs. They were supposed to be The Emperor's finest and go around kicking Chaos's butt, all the while staying grimdark to fit the fluff. With that constant grim dark, it meant that every chapter was always in fear of their losing too many and their geneseed falling away and their chapter disappearing. They had flaws and I'm ok with that, flaws are needed for a good story, but as the fluff progressed, these flaws progressed and the Space Marines were no longer the heroes and champions that fought during the 30k Horus Heresy, these were merely stragglers barely holding on to what once was.

With the introduction of the Primaris Marines, it feels like Achilles is joining the battle at Troy with his Myrmidons, his elites. And they're ready to kick some butt.

So yes, I agree, the fluff needs work. needed work before they ever released it. But I think they're on the right track to make something epic.

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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Mon Jul 31 2017, 03:38

Barry the only thing epic about this new fluff is that I'm vomiting in narrative stanzas.

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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Mon Jul 31 2017, 03:40

Quote :
They had flaws and I'm ok with that, flaws are needed for a good story, but as the fluff progressed, these flaws progressed and the Space Marines were no longer the heroes and champions that fought during the 30k Horus Heresy, these were merely stragglers barely holding on to what once was.

To be frank, that's largely my problem with them. The overarching theme of the Imperium is one of a slow, rotting, decay. It is a tale of a fall from grace, how an all consuming war turned an empire that accentuated the best in humanity to a kingdom where only the worst survive. Knowledge is scowled upon, and the fruit of millenia of scientific advancement has ground to a halt as skepticism and reason gave way to indoctrination and superstition. The Space Marines were no exception, as the empire rots, so does its warriors, once noble and proud, they too have devolved into dogmatic arrogance and inefficiency, too busy squabbling with one another to adequately defend the race they were sworn to uphold.

The New Marines upset that overarching theme. A carcass of a government on the verge of collapsing entirely shouldn't have a new breath of life into it. That ruins the entire idea, moral, even, of the Imperium. Giving a new, substantial, hope to humanity grinds crudely against decades of established lore.

In short, Primaris Marines are an affront to the overall thematic feel of the Imperium.

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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Mon Jul 31 2017, 04:17

Perhaps. But perhaps those themes had run their course and some new themes for the faction were due.

Or perhaps time will show that the 'breath of life' is anything but, and that the new invigoration is just a fresh coat of paint on a badly rotted wall.
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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Mon Jul 31 2017, 04:20

"Maybe that thing we all liked about the lore is something we really didn't like."

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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Mon Jul 31 2017, 04:24

@Jimsolo wrote:
Or perhaps time will show that the 'breath of life' is anything but, and that the new invigoration is just a fresh coat of paint on a badly rotted wall.

40k canon, they determine the fluff based on whats going on in GW HQ and their stock prices.

They're slowly rotting just like their fictional universe is. lol!

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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Mon Jul 31 2017, 06:26

@TeenageAngst wrote:
"Maybe that thing we all liked about the lore is something we really didn't like."

That's a wild misinterpretation of what I said.
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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Mon Jul 31 2017, 06:37

What you said is that the old lore and themes perhaps ran their course and we need new ones to spice up the game. These are lore and themes the fans have enjoyed for *decades*. You are suggesting that these things that drew us into the game and that we all enjoyed throughout our time in the hobby might not be what we actually want.

Explain where I got that wrong exactly.

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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Mon Jul 31 2017, 06:37

I really do not get how anyone can say that 8th sees od fans leaving or being unhappy. In here 7th drove a huge portion of players towards other games as it was to sum their feelings "total crap". And I do mean people who played since early editions. Now they are getting back in droves... But yea, well... we are a strange country I guess... Razz
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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Mon Jul 31 2017, 06:53

That's because 7th was mechanically terrible. Rather than fix it, which they could have, they instead replaced it with a different game and called it 40k 8th edition. Old players who quit like it because it's not 7th edition. New players like it because they don't know anything else. Mechanically it's dull as hell and has no tactical depth, and every game I play plays exactly the same regardless of what I bring because the game naturally flows to one single outcome depending on your army.

The lore they began expanding and at first it looked expansive but now is very, very definitely constrictive. Old Space Marines will be phased out if not retconned entirely. All Eldar are being pushed into the Ynnari like it or not. And it's all being done with some of the worst plot advancement I've seen this side of DeviantArt. But people love it because it's advancement and god anything that advances the plot MUST be good.

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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Mon Jul 31 2017, 07:17

I have to laugh at how you can insult people you never seen while appearing logical. No, the guys I am talking about are not stupid sheep that embrace change for a change or people who would play to get their revenge on 7th. Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Mon Jul 31 2017, 08:08

After playing some amount of games im actually feeling quite positive about 8th. And i dont really want to return to 7th. There are good things, and complexity that was removed from layers and layers of USRs are now in base ruleset. Many things i like, some i dont, but i hope they will be fixed some day.

I never once had a game where the decision was obvious, and things would not depend on your decisions. I had that feeling often in 7th.

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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Mon Jul 31 2017, 08:26

I hate ynnari too. Mad

@FuelDrop wrote:
It's why I look at things like Vipers having 20" move and the option of advancing 2d6 inches, or Wave Serpents being faster, tougher, and better armed than raiders, and shake my head.

Personally, I would have preferred if the unifying faction was the Harlequins, who've been working on the task since the fall rather than the new guy who's been around for 5 minutes.

I should also add that I dislike Primerus marines, but not because I'm a luddite who cannot take change. I dislike them because they take Space Marines and make them second stringers. I dislike them because they are going into armies like Space Wolves and Dark Angels who would not accept them under any circumstances. I dislike them because their lore is poorly done, and the same general thing could have instead been done by making them new veteran specializations with new equipment and training rather than retconning in a massive army of SUPER!!! space marines which are better in every way and are awesome and cool! Come on you guys! Like them! LIKE THEM!!!

I do think that GW needs to stop giving the Space Marines toys that cut into other army's specializations. The Repulsor grav tank is a perfect example, outclassing all the grav specialized armies in every way except speed, and by a considerable margin too. Let the Space Marines do their own thing, rather than have them outdo the specialists at their specialty.

Like.
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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Mon Jul 31 2017, 08:33

Quote :
After playing some amount of games im actually feeling quite positive about 8th. And i dont really want to return to 7th. There are good things, and complexity that was removed from layers and layers of USRs are now in base ruleset. Many things i like, some i dont, but i hope they will be fixed some day.

Funny, the more I play the less I like it.

Quote :
I never once had a game where the decision was obvious, and things would not depend on your decisions. I had that feeling often in 7th.

That is literally every game of 8th for me. I've never had a "close game" with 8th. It's always extremely one-sided. Against drop-plasma and a Stormraven, I lost hard. Against Space Marine bikes, I won hard. Against brimstone spam and a Krieg army, I lost hard. Against suit Tau and Necrons, I won hard. Every game was decided by the end of turn 2 and after every game we realized there was literally nothing we could have done different to change the outcomes of any of those games, even after talking through the battle step by step.

Meanwhile in 7th almost every loss I had, even competitive losses, were very, very close games that were loads of fun to play.

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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Mon Jul 31 2017, 08:53

@TeenageAngst wrote:
...and after every game we realized there was literally nothing we could have done different to change the outcomes of any of those games, even after talking through the battle step by step. ...

Did either side of this discussion consider, perhaps, not shooting, not charging and staying as clear from the objectives as possible?

From my observations, these are the only "tactical" decisions available in 8th.
Everything has the Flavour of cardboard.

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