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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Fri Jun 16 2017, 09:17

Quote :
- Have you ever tried duct-taping two assault rifles onto a motorcycle and then firing them with perfect accuracy at targets to your sides or rear, whilst riding at full throttle? Razz

Being an avid motorcycle rider and tourer i still didnt managed to understand where do they have the throttle on the 40k bikes )))) One of White Scars deathwatch stories author even went as far as mention they have manual transmission. Right now the most likely explanation of bike control in 40k is that they have mind-link to motorcycle. Cause otherwise they simple lack enough controls to operate one.

Even if they have only 2 controls, presumably pedals, throttle and gas that doesnt provide for any sort of accurate riding, where you can manage to !shoot! while riding and even get to a close combat.

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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Fri Jun 16 2017, 13:03

Reminds me of something I read from one of the team years ago "40k isn't scifi it's fantasy in space, there's no science in 40k"
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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Fri Jun 16 2017, 18:14

Yeah, it's all pretend. Now they want us to pretend 8th edition has good rules. GW stores even made it a store rule, apparently.

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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Thu Jun 22 2017, 07:35

I gotta get this off my chest so if you don't wanna read another rant you can just skip this one. This subject reminded me of the most common argument trotted out against the "whiners"; that the entire game is just make-believe plastic tiny space men and none of it really matters and we all need to stop caring so much. The "it's all pretend" argument is the stupidest one possible.

Look, every game is just pretend. Every single one. It could be a video game, a tabletop game, D&D, card games, it's all a made-up time waster done entirely for entertainment purposes. If someone were to approach every single game they played as "it's just pretend, I just want a game, any game, to fill in so many hours a week" they would settle into the best quality game they could play for the most reasonable cost, and GW would never make a sale to them. In the realm of "it's just a game" GW has the worst possible business model, selling vastly overpriced minis for a game that limps and lurches compared to refined systems like Malifaux and Infinity.

The appeal of 40k comes entirely from 3 sources: the lore, the game, and the models. The models are overpriced and the game is sluggish, which leaves the lore. 40k has some of the best freaking lore of any sci-fi franchise. It's deep, it's intricate, it's interesting, you could lose entire days to reading wiki pages dedicated to 40k lore. Being interested in that lore is why having those sluggish rules made sense, it was a tie in, a verisimilitude between what happens in the stories and what happens on the tabletop. Yes, they could be abused, but that too opened up (what was to me anyway) an interesting strategic element. The models tied into it too. You read about hedonistic Dark Eldars, so you try your hand at building and painting them. Then you learn from that process and make some more that look even cooler. Then you kitbash some custom ones. And every step along the way there's usually a story or a narrative hook leading you to create the next customized addition to your army.

If everyone approached it as "it's just pretend and doesn't matter" then we wouldn't have named Archons or war trophies or written backgrounds. No one would complain about people playing hyper-competitive lists because they're just playing the game well. There would be no "fluff" players or themed lists at all.

So yes, it is all pretend, but people care because caring is what adds enjoyment to the hobby. And when things like sudden shifts in lore happen that mess up the narratives people have for their army, they're going to be upset because that was where they derived their enjoyment. When sudden changes in rules happen that take away those connections between the lore and the game and replace it with simplified tactics and same-y units, it's going to lose the appeal of having that cool tie-in. This says nothing of course of the financial investment people have in their hobby, where the sunk cost fallacy is alive and well.

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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Thu Jun 22 2017, 09:26

@TeenageAngst wrote:
The appeal of 40k comes entirely from 3 sources: the lore, the game, and the models. The models are overpriced and the game is sluggish, which leaves the lore.

In your opinion. Which is fine, and you're perfectly entitled to it. But others can and do disagree and, outside of this thread, it's getting a little tiresome to hear you banging on and on and on and on about it.

I also find it somewhat confusing that someone who professes to hate this game so much has gone out and bought hundreds of dollars worth of models (ie your famous flock of flocks) in order to play it.

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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Thu Jun 22 2017, 09:38

@Count Adhemar wrote:
In your opinion. Which is fine, and you're perfectly entitled to it. But others can and do disagree and, outside of this thread, it's getting a little tiresome to hear you banging on and on and on and on about it.

I also find it somewhat confusing that someone who professes to hate this game so much has gone out and bought hundreds of dollars worth of models (ie your famous flock of flocks) in order to play it.

Where is that like button we keep asking for lol!

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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Thu Jun 22 2017, 10:57

I completely disagree with teenageangst but I think he actually keeps most rants quite nicely in this thread. Ok so in a first game thread he also posted quite a bit of negative comments, but those were either 1 sentence comments except for 1 rant which was an awnser to someone litterely asking why he did not like it. So while I disagree with Teenageangst (to me 8th feels better then 7 even if not everything is perfect and the indexes feel rushed).
I think he actually does quite a good job of keeping his negativety in check. Since it is clear he invest quite some time and money in the hobby and then it can be really frustrating if a game you love is supposed to become better and it turns out everything which was good for you got scrapped. Fortunately it seems that most of the people in his area agree with him so he should not have to much problems with finding opponents for 7th. While where I am most people gladly went to 8th.
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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Thu Jun 22 2017, 18:36

Quote :

In your opinion. Which is fine, and you're perfectly entitled to it. But others can and do disagree and, outside of this thread, it's getting a little tiresome to hear you banging on and on and on and on about it.

I keep most of it in this thread, as I was told to, unless people explicitly ask me to give my reasons for not liking 8th. Also what's good for the goose is good for the gander, I'm allowed to not like things and I'm getting tired of the constant drumbeat of "stay positive about 8th" going on outside this topic. If it was so great then you wouldn't have a problem with people complaining. I don't care if you like it, but everyone seems to care that I don't. Double standards galore. You want an echo chamber? Cause that's how you get one.

Quote :

I also find it somewhat confusing that someone who professes to hate this game so much has gone out and bought hundreds of dollars worth of models (ie your famous flock of flocks) in order to play it.

I have not spent one thin dime on the hobby since 8th came out.

Also, the trouble is, unlike D&D 3.5 which is and will forever be used, 7e is completely replaced by 8th for all intents and purposes. Even wizards of the coast, the hollow shell of corporate greed that they are, released 2e and 3.5e books again. I could play AD&D 2nd edition today by walking into a bookstore and buying the rulebooks off the shelf. No such luck for 40k, we will never see those books ever again.

Eventually I will have to play 8th almost exclusively and it's going to suck.

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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Thu Jun 22 2017, 18:50

You know that both of us really clash and disagree but I have to admit, you really keep the rant inside this thread. Thank you for that.


It's not about creating an echo chamber because by now everyone knows these different mechanics and the arguments about it.
It's simply about not adding something new and valuable to discussions where we work together for the glory of the true kin.
Wink

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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Thu Jun 22 2017, 19:42

I already gave us the "I win" button. Razorwing flocks in high numbers will shut down anyone who isn't packing a serious list and if properly constructed and run, a DE flock list can win against even other spam lists. This is the equivalent of "bring scatbikes" this edition.

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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Thu Jun 22 2017, 20:12

Boring to assemble and paint so many of the same thing though
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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Thu Jun 22 2017, 22:37

It wouldn't be 8th edition if every single aspect wasn't as dull as safety scissors.

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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Sat Jun 24 2017, 01:39

@TeenageAngst wrote:
It wouldn't be 8th edition if every single aspect wasn't as dull as safety scissors.

I applaud your sparkling wit, good sir!

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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Sun Jul 02 2017, 02:08

Hang on I gotta hash another one out here.

I came to the realization that all Eldar fighters are completely pointless for their intended purpose. The Razorwing Jetfighter hits on a 3+ normally and the Crimson Hunter hits on a 2+ but that's made a 3+ every single time because all its weapons are heavy. Okay, whatever, sounds fine. Except that the Hard to Hit rule means that they're only hitting flyers on a 4+, which is their intended freaking target. What's more, only the Exarch gets a reroll of 1s to hit. That's cool that's fine it's whatever, all flyers have that. All fighter jets do regardless. Who cares if it's all the same? At least Crimson Hunters can reroll failed wounds against flyers. But even so, they're hitting ground targets more reliably AND that reroll to wound works against *anything* with the fly keyword. So anything from Tau suits to birds to jetbikes. So maybe it's more of an anti-Raider craft, something to take out jump pack units or something similar?

Well all this goes out the window when for about 28 points more you could have the Hemlock Wraithfighter which has more shots from better guns, is a psyker, and hits ANY TARGET AUTOMATICALLY. Flying, ground based, monster, tank, Stormraven, birbs, doesn't matter. It's getting 2D3 S10 AP-4 D3 to the face.

Seriously, did they even read these rules before committing them to paper?

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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Sun Jul 02 2017, 15:00

@TeenageAngst wrote:
Seriously, did they even read these rules before committing them to paper?

Given the number of errors, both rules and grammatical, I think that we can definitively answer this.

"No.

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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Sun Jul 02 2017, 16:48

People in Facebook groups keep telling me this and that is a typo or an error and will be amended soon. For how many times I hear that, the entire edition might as well be a typo. Also it's a real kick in the shins to force us to buy all new broken rules and then immediately replace half of them with errata.

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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Sun Jul 02 2017, 16:55

There are also a lot of things that really should have been noticed during playtesting. The fact that RAW the Assault rule does nothing. The fact that RAW there's nothing to stop you from naming your SM Chapter <Mars> and getting buffed by Admech Auras. The fact that Necrons have 2 weapons with identical profiles but different point costs. The fact that the DE Stinger Pistol is 7pts more than a Splinter Pistol in spite of being exactly the same. etc.
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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Mon Jul 03 2017, 16:03

Most of the most glaring ones were addressed now thankfully. Ynnari is now an all or nothing thing, which is fine now for the lauded goal of "balance" but it's gonna suck when their codex comes out and Lelith, Eldrad, and Iyrial are locked behind the same paywall the Yncarne is. Also this will make bookkeeping for the birbs a nightmare as I'll need 2 brib detachments and one specifically for the Chronos.

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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Tue Jul 04 2017, 02:21

Isn't there that -1CP single slot of anything bar LOW detachment?

Unless you were planning on bringing multiple a Chronos and spreading them out... In which case a lone Warlock in the HS detachment gives you a 44 point "tax" with Singing Spear. Or maybe bite the bullet and go a Haemi if you want a buff vector that you can actually use.

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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Tue Jul 04 2017, 02:49

It is -1 CP for anything unless you pad the detachment out with the aforementioned paywall. It just grinds me gears that last edition, the Triumvirate could be used in any Harlequin, DE, or Eldar detachment and now they're REQUIRED to be in their own separate super-special Ynnari detachment. They are the only faction as far as I can tell that requires this. I can have a detachment of Wracks, Wyches, Troupes, Fire Prisms, Corsair Reavers, and Howling Banshees, but I can't have anything with the Ynnari keyword in there. It's bonkers, and it's only gonna hurt worse when the other aforementioned heroes I love get locked out too.

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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Tue Jul 04 2017, 22:01



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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Sat Jul 22 2017, 08:46

Over the past few weeks I've had a serious sit down and think about where I'm at in the hobby now. I had this same thought back in February when I was considering getting out of the hobby when I was disappointed with the direction the Gathering Storm II book was taking the story, and now it's kind of solidified into my own personal worst case scenario. I literally get nothing out of the hobby anymore. From a gameplay aspect, 8th edition is disappointing to say the least. It took a deep and interesting system and reduced it to a skeleton, rife with ridiculous rules such as tanks shooting from antennas while facing backwards, flyers dying when they move off the board, and being able to take 200+ Razorwing Flocks in a single battleforged list. There were positive changes for sure but nothing that couldn't have been added to 7th edition to make it more streamlined. Instead we have a transition that's about as smooth as going from third gear to reverse in a car with bad synchros.

Then there's the narrative aspect. I can handle bad gameplay if I at least enjoy the lore, but 8th edition ushered in a new wave of flanderized "even grim-darker-er" story progression that's just boring to read. I have literally no interest in the hand being pushed even closer to midnight by things like the Eye of Terror now being as big as the entire galaxy or Cadia blowing up or whatever. It just smacks of them running out of ideas so they blew the world up again, like a 12 year old DMing a game of D&D. And because of this, my narratives are all shot to hell. My Biel-Tan army is worthless. It's just gone, there's no reason to ever bring it off the shelf again. The units in it are sub-par even by the paltry offerings for the Craftworld Eldar in this edition and the narrative was demolished so hard you'd think there was an insurance fraud case involved. My Dark Eldar didn't fare much better, and my Sisters of Battle might as well never leave the shelf either. It's impossible to play with them now, literally, since I'm not allowed to play with multiple factions anymore. I have maybe, if I stretch, 500 points of Sisters. That does not an army make. They were meant to supplement my Dark Eldar, I even gave them lore for such, and now they can't. In fact all my coolest models are practically worthless. My two heavily converted Dark Eldar Wraithknights that I spent over a month working on are trash. Eddie my Talos, Kyle my Razorwing Jetfighter pilot, my converted Jetseer and her escorts, all useless now. I mean yes I could technically use them if I felt like pouring points down the sink but that sucks even more fun out of the game. Hell, I can't even run my Yvraine that I modeled as a Harlequin with my action Harlequins unless I run my clowns as Ynnari!

Which brings me to the hobby aspect. What motivation do I have to spend time on the hobby aspect when the lore and the gameplay are so terrible to me? Why should I invest myself into making my Howling Banshees as unique and interesting as I imagined them to be when how I imagined them no longer functions within the world they're supposed to be a part of? Why should I go through the effort of converting each and every Bloodbride for Lelith's retinue when she's part of a faction I can't stand now? I tried painting a few models recently and they all came out looking like a sloppy rush job because that's exactly what they were. I just didn't care, and I couldn't make myself care because there was nothing left for me to hang on to other than playing in tournaments and winning. So as it stands I have boxes of Zombicide crows sitting on a shelf behind me, still in shrink wrap in case I have to send them back to Amazon if an errata is released between now and the NOVA GT. That is my sole focus in my collection and army now. A bunch of cheap plastic 3rd party birds.

"TA just find people to play 7th with then, or people who are okay with you bringing your Sisters or whatever along." Yeah those conversations tend to go like this:

"Hey, can we play 7th?"

"No, 8th is way better."

"Okay, then can I run unbound? I wanna use my Sisters of Battle."

"I mean, I would be more comfortable if we stayed battle-forged."

"Oookay, then can we use the Death from the Skies rules?"

"Death from the Skies is garbage, let's just use the basic rules."

"**** IT, OKAY FINE." And then I dump a box of birds on the table and pretend to have fun for 2 hours.

And of course when I mention any of this on facebook the answer is universally "lol u mad dawg just sell me ur army k" to which I answer, I am.

No really, I'm selling my 40k stuff. This is the first time since I started playing 40k that my collection has been actively shrinking. Since 8th was announced I haven't bought a single GW model. Every week I auction off like 5 units on ebay. I'm not gonna sell it in one big lump, I'm not a moron, I gotta get at least some of my money back. But for about a month now I've been hocking old models, sprues of things I know I'll never build, and a 3000 point 4th edition Tau army I've had laying around forever. The thing is, with the exception of the Tau, I liked these armies. I liked their lore, their models, their playstyles. This doesn't feel like a choice I made because of a natural disinterest over time like it did with World of Warcraft. I used to be into that game as much as I was 40k but as expansions released I just slowly drifted away. 40k however I was totally into and then overnight it was like someone took away my favorite game and replaced it with something completely different. I'm selling models not because "oh well I guess I'm not getting back into that" but I can't stand to look at them anymore. They're constantly reminding me of the fun I used to have with the game and can no longer. All I have left to have fun with is a bunch of stupid birds and whatever novel broken concepts I can come up with as more codexes are released. I don't like selling this much of my collection, but I also don't like the new direction the game is headed, and I'd rather have money and be sad than not have money and still be sad.

tl;dr: I've been slowly selling my armies off because there is nothing left in this hobby for me beyond spamming birds and winning.

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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Sat Jul 22 2017, 09:03

Angst, i think we are on the same page, most of My units, even a whole Army got usless, but thats not what gets me its that all the units i spent all My time on are usless now, all that Converting and painting for nothing. What realy byggs me in this "new and improved" edition is that despite being so much easier to grasp, i Still have to dumbdown My lists and play stupid with not only new players but some veterans to. Its fine that the simpletons sould get to play wargames but hade it to be warhammer?

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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Sat Jul 22 2017, 09:28

@TeenageAngst wrote:
Over the past few weeks I've had a serious sit down and think about where I'm at in the hobby now. I had this same thought back in February when I was considering getting out of the hobby when I was disappointed with the direction the Gathering Storm II book was taking the story, and now it's kind of solidified into my own personal worst case scenario. I literally get nothing out of the hobby anymore. From a gameplay aspect, 8th edition is disappointing to say the least. It took a deep and interesting system and reduced it to a skeleton, rife with ridiculous rules such as tanks shooting from antennas while facing backwards, flyers dying when they move off the board, and being able to take 200+ Razorwing Flocks in a single battleforged list. There were positive changes for sure but nothing that couldn't have been added to 7th edition to make it more streamlined. Instead we have a transition that's about as smooth as going from third gear to reverse in a car with bad synchros.

Then there's the narrative aspect. I can handle bad gameplay if I at least enjoy the lore, but 8th edition ushered in a new wave of flanderized "even grim-darker-er" story progression that's just boring to read. I have literally no interest in the hand being pushed even closer to midnight by things like the Eye of Terror now being as big as the entire galaxy or Cadia blowing up or whatever. It just smacks of them running out of ideas so they blew the world up again, like a 12 year old DMing a game of D&D. And because of this, my narratives are all shot to hell. My Biel-Tan army is worthless. It's just gone, there's no reason to ever bring it off the shelf again. The units in it are sub-par even by the paltry offerings for the Craftworld Eldar in this edition and the narrative was demolished so hard you'd think there was an insurance fraud case involved. My Dark Eldar didn't fare much better, and my Sisters of Battle might as well never leave the shelf either. It's impossible to play with them now, literally, since I'm not allowed to play with multiple factions anymore. I have maybe, if I stretch, 500 points of Sisters. That does not an army make. They were meant to supplement my Dark Eldar, I even gave them lore for such, and now they can't. In fact all my coolest models are practically worthless. My two heavily converted Dark Eldar Wraithknights that I spent over a month working on are trash. Eddie my Talos, Kyle my Razorwing Jetfighter pilot, my converted Jetseer and her escorts, all useless now. I mean yes I could technically use them if I felt like pouring points down the sink but that sucks even more fun out of the game. Hell, I can't even run my Yvraine that I modeled as a Harlequin with my action Harlequins unless I run my clowns as Ynnari!

Which brings me to the hobby aspect. What motivation do I have to spend time on the hobby aspect when the lore and the gameplay are so terrible to me? Why should I invest myself into making my Howling Banshees as unique and interesting as I imagined them to be when how I imagined them no longer functions within the world they're supposed to be a part of? Why should I go through the effort of converting each and every Bloodbride for Lelith's retinue when she's part of a faction I can't stand now? I tried painting a few models recently and they all came out looking like a sloppy rush job because that's exactly what they were. I just didn't care, and I couldn't make myself care because there was nothing left for me to hang on to other than playing in tournaments and winning. So as it stands I have boxes of Zombicide crows sitting on a shelf behind me, still in shrink wrap in case I have to send them back to Amazon if an errata is released between now and the NOVA GT. That is my sole focus in my collection and army now. A bunch of cheap plastic 3rd party birds.

"TA just find people to play 7th with then, or people who are okay with you bringing your Sisters or whatever along." Yeah those conversations tend to go like this:

"Hey, can we play 7th?"

"No, 8th is way better."

"Okay, then can I run unbound? I wanna use my Sisters of Battle."

"I mean, I would be more comfortable if we stayed battle-forged."

"Oookay, then can we use the Death from the Skies rules?"

"Death from the Skies is garbage, let's just use the basic rules."

"**** IT, OKAY FINE." And then I dump a box of birds on the table and pretend to have fun for 2 hours.

And of course when I mention any of this on facebook the answer is universally "lol u mad dawg just sell me ur army k" to which I answer, I am.

No really, I'm selling my 40k stuff. This is the first time since I started playing 40k that my collection has been actively shrinking. Since 8th was announced I haven't bought a single GW model. Every week I auction off like 5 units on ebay. I'm not gonna sell it in one big lump, I'm not a moron, I gotta get at least some of my money back. But for about a month now I've been hocking old models, sprues of things I know I'll never build, and a 3000 point 4th edition Tau army I've had laying around forever. The thing is, with the exception of the Tau, I liked these armies. I liked their lore, their models, their playstyles. This doesn't feel like a choice I made because of a natural disinterest over time like it did with World of Warcraft. I used to be into that game as much as I was 40k but as expansions released I just slowly drifted away. 40k however I was totally into and then overnight it was like someone took away my favorite game and replaced it with something completely different. I'm selling models not because "oh well I guess I'm not getting back into that" but I can't stand to look at them anymore. They're constantly reminding me of the fun I used to have with the game and can no longer. All I have left to have fun with is a bunch of stupid birds and whatever novel broken concepts I can come up with as more codexes are released. I don't like selling this much of my collection, but I also don't like the new direction the game is headed, and I'd rather have money and be sad than not have money and still be sad.

tl;dr: I've been slowly selling my armies off because there is nothing left in this hobby for me beyond spamming birds and winning.

I don´t want to be rude, but does that imply that you will quit this forum too because everything sucks for you and you don´t even see the point in participating here anymore given the fact that you will be soon out of models?

_________________
+++++INCOMING TRANSMISSION+++++
The Dark Eldar Codex sucks. You probably won just because your enemy loaded his dice to loose. Never forget this mantra and spread the word. Mention it in every discussion possible, people can´t get enough of that valuable information and need to be reminded regularely.
+++++END OF TRANSMISSION+++++
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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Sat Jul 22 2017, 09:37

Probably. I know you're overjoyed to hear that.

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