HomeDark Eldar WikiDark Eldar ResourcesNull CityFAQUsergroupsRegisterLog in
Share | 
 

 rant about GW and play testers

View previous topic View next topic Go down 
Go to page : Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 10 ... 19  Next
AuthorMessage
TeenageAngst
Hekatrix
avatar

Posts : 1306
Join date : 2016-08-29

PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Mon Jun 05 2017, 17:02

Squidmaster is the voice of truth.

_________________
Really terrible videos about tiny plastic space elfs intended to help you get gud scrub:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCcZP8WGIhte5TmCWQXsZO4A

Flawless pieces of literary perfection:
https://www.fanfiction.net/u/2805979/
Back to top Go down
Gobsmakked
Rumour Scourge
avatar

Posts : 3274
Join date : 2011-05-14
Location : Vancouver, BC

PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Mon Jun 05 2017, 18:32

Do not make posts personal, do not criticize individuals at GW or elsewhere by name.
If you have something legit to say, fine, say it and move on. 8th edition is here, for better or worse. It is a massive undertaking, and just like AoS it will get adjusted along the way to correct things.

And something else to think about - if you listened to the latest Splintermind podcast, you might hear how seasoned players have been turned off visiting this forum due to all the negativity.

Think about that.
Back to top Go down
CptMetal
Trueborn
avatar

Posts : 2644
Join date : 2015-03-03
Location : Ruhr Metropolian Area

PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Mon Jun 05 2017, 18:34

@Gobsmakked wrote:

And something else to think about - if you listened to the latest Splintermind podcast, you might hear how seasoned players have been turned off visiting this forum due to all the negativity.

Think about that.

Good to know, that I´m not the only one!
And...kind of sad actually too...

_________________
+++++INCOMING TRANSMISSION+++++
The Dark Eldar Codex sucks. You probably won just because your enemy loaded his dice to loose. Never forget this mantra and spread the word. Mention it in every discussion possible, people can´t get enough of that valuable information and need to be reminded regularely.
+++++END OF TRANSMISSION+++++
http://www.thedarkcity.net/t12720-tainted-reborn
Back to top Go down
zergavas
Kabalite Warrior
avatar

Posts : 111
Join date : 2012-04-06
Location : Sweden

PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Mon Jun 05 2017, 18:46

"you might hear how seasoned players have been turned off visiting this forum due to all the negativity."
Some turned off some banned...

_________________
Our skimmers are armored with wet cardboard, our men are wrapped in tissue paper armor and most of our ICs and special characters live in abject terror at the thought of a Str 6 weapon that can insta-kill them, We are the Dark Eldar Fear us!
Back to top Go down
Skulnbonz
Wych
avatar

Posts : 549
Join date : 2012-07-13
Location : Tampa

PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Mon Jun 05 2017, 18:56

@zergavas wrote:
"you might hear how seasoned players have been turned off visiting this forum due to all the negativity."
Some turned off some banned...
ha! Awesome!

Point in fact: I am a seasoned tournament player.
I dont give a crap what anyone says about a unit good or bad. I will test/ find out for myself.

If someone is no longer here because another player had something negative to say about Dark Eldar, I think that says more about the player that left than it does about the forums.

Don't cater to the weak, it will only bring the strong down.

_________________
ATTITUDE: It is the difference between an ORDEAL and an ADVENTURE!
Back to top Go down
http://www.fantasybattles.com
Von Snabel
Hellion
avatar

Posts : 89
Join date : 2017-01-12
Location : Stockholm

PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Mon Jun 05 2017, 18:59

Isn't the whole purpous of this thread to kind of scramble all those negative people togeather so we don't have to deal them on the rest of the forums ?
Back to top Go down
TeenageAngst
Hekatrix
avatar

Posts : 1306
Join date : 2016-08-29

PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Mon Jun 05 2017, 18:59

Quote :
Some turned off some banned...

Quoted for truth.

Quote :

If someone is no longer here because another player had something negative to say about Dark Eldar, I think that says more about the player that left than it does about the forums.

Absolutely. If you can't handle criticism you shouldn't post on message boards. We are allowed to not like things.

_________________
Really terrible videos about tiny plastic space elfs intended to help you get gud scrub:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCcZP8WGIhte5TmCWQXsZO4A

Flawless pieces of literary perfection:
https://www.fanfiction.net/u/2805979/
Back to top Go down
Gobsmakked
Rumour Scourge
avatar

Posts : 3274
Join date : 2011-05-14
Location : Vancouver, BC

PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Mon Jun 05 2017, 19:20

@Von Snabel wrote:
Isn't the whole purpous of this thread to kind of scramble all those negative people togeather so we don't have to deal them on the rest of the forums ?

Yes, probably, but that doesn't still doesn't give everyone free reign to say absolutely anything.

@Skulnbonz wrote:
...... If someone is no longer here because another player had something negative to say about Dark Eldar, I think that says more about the player that left than it does about the forums.

Don't cater to the weak, it will only bring the strong down.

It has nothing to do with weakness or their character. If large enough, the sheer volume of negativity can and will grate on people and drive them away after a while.
Back to top Go down
TheBaconPope
Kabalite Warrior
avatar

Posts : 206
Join date : 2017-03-10

PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Mon Jun 05 2017, 19:37

One of my problems is the utterly ridiculous way that they're organizing points.

I can understand why you might want to put the points in a separate section for easier listbuilding, but why not factor the cost of base wargear into the price? It's been brought up before, surely, but different weapons are more or less effective based on the platform they're mounted on. A Heat Lance, for instance, is far less viable on a Talos than a Reaver, simply because Reavers are far more likely to get into melta range, yet they both pay the same price for it. It makes building a list confusing to say the least, and it eliminates a more subtle method of balancing units and pricing.

But all of this confusion is irrelevant, because why the bloody [REDACTED] would they design a purported temporary book for ease of balancing in the mid to long term future? The idea the index is to provide a placeholder while GW pushes out official codexes, so I see no reason why this barebones booklet would ever need to dedicate a large portion of its formatting to easier points adjustment.

_________________
"Death solves all problems. No man, no problem."
Back to top Go down
The Shredder
Trueborn
avatar

Posts : 2635
Join date : 2013-04-11

PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Mon Jun 05 2017, 19:37

@TeenageAngst wrote:
Absolutely. If you can't handle criticism you shouldn't post on message boards. We are allowed to not like things.

This.

What puzzles me more though is the reaction to criticism. It just doesn't make sense to me.

- If a particular army or build or tactic works well for you, why would it bother you if other people dislike or criticise it? At worst, you can dismiss them and carry on as normal. At best, they might make some legitimate points and help steer you to an even better army/tactic/build.

- If you are having fun with an army (or 40k in general), why would criticism change that? Unless there's a niggling doubt at the back of your mind that you're not having as much fun as you've convinced yourself you're having. If not, then I can't see how criticism (legitimate or otherwise) would make your games less enjoyable.

I'm not trying to be disparaging towards those who dislike criticism or negativity. I'm just saying that I genuinely don't understand their position in wanting to remove such from the forum.
Back to top Go down
Barrywise
Sybarite
avatar

Posts : 393
Join date : 2012-11-14
Location : Illinois

PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Mon Jun 05 2017, 19:44

They usually leave because it's a waste of their time. There's a line between actual constructive criticism and logical fallacies and more often than not we're on the logical fallacy side, which often ends up derailing any good conversation that was happening as we need to back up and address the issue.

I wouldn't consider myself an exalted member of this community by any means. I've been a lurker for 5 years and an on-off poster for 2. But despite my short time here, I've seen a very polarized switch of opinions, going from some of the most well mannered, highly insightful, well experienced players who knew that playing DE meant that their backs were to the wall into what we have now. Gone are the days where the first thought was "Woe to those that oppose me" instead being replaced by angry walls of text declaring that we've lost before a single model has been placed.

I ask each and everyone of you not to change who you are as a person, as we need the diversity of opinion to get a full picture, but to instead remember that we are brothers in arms. While we spend our time squabbling, our cattle has more and more time to prepare for us. The backstabbing and petty politics can come later, we have prey to hunt.

Woe to my enemy.

/endrant

Back on topic. WHERE ARE MY SQUATS?

_________________
Want to chat in real time with your fellow archons? Join our Discord channel -> https://discord.gg/5yhRP7v
Back to top Go down
Von Snabel
Hellion
avatar

Posts : 89
Join date : 2017-01-12
Location : Stockholm

PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Mon Jun 05 2017, 19:49

@TheBaconPope wrote:
One of my problems is the utterly ridiculous way that they're organizing points.

I can understand why you might want to put the points in a separate section for easier listbuilding, but why not factor the cost of base wargear into the price? It's been brought up before, surely, but different weapons are more or less effective based on the platform they're mounted on. A Heat Lance, for instance, is far less viable on a Talos than a Reaver, simply because Reavers are far more likely to get into melta range, yet they both pay the same price for it. It makes building a list confusing to say the least, and it eliminates a more subtle method of balancing units and pricing.



The absolut base wargears are free so no need to think about that one. And so if a model A have a base weapond that is a uppgrade for model B a weird subtraction would have to be made for model A to change wargear. So I'm on board with them there. And when it comes to different weaponds have different effectivity on different models are probably accounted for in the model. That's the reason we pay for speed and sturdyness (Well we as DE dont have any sturdyness but you get the point Wink )

@TheBaconPope wrote:

But all of this confusion is irrelevant, because why the bloody [REDACTED] would they design a purported temporary book for ease of balancing in the mid to long term future? The idea the index is to provide a placeholder while GW pushes out official codexes, so I see no reason why this barebones booklet would ever need to dedicate a large portion of its formatting to easier points adjustment.


The reason here is probably to introduce the format to the public. If we'd get another system to make our armies with the index we'd be totaly lost when the when the codex comes out  except the change would hit us like a ton of bricks since we would have lost this initial learning phase.
Back to top Go down
The Shredder
Trueborn
avatar

Posts : 2635
Join date : 2013-04-11

PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Mon Jun 05 2017, 19:55

@TheBaconPope wrote:
But all of this confusion is irrelevant, because why the bloody [REDACTED] would they design a purported temporary book for ease of balancing in the mid to long term future? The idea the index is to provide a placeholder while GW pushes out official codexes, so I see no reason why this barebones booklet would ever need to dedicate a large portion of its formatting to easier points adjustment.

That's a really good point, actually.

Honestly though, if they plan to do proper codices in the future anyway, could they not have just released the indexes as free rules like they do with AoS?

@Barrywise wrote:
more often than not we're on the logical fallacy side

Citation needed. Wink

@Barrywise wrote:
I ask each and everyone of you not to change who you are as a person, as we need the diversity of opinion to get a full picture, but to instead remember that we are brothers in arms. While we spend our time squabbling, our cattle has more and more time to prepare for us. The backstabbing and petty politics can come later, we have prey to hunt.

I'm sorry, brother, you came too late.

They're already here.

They've always been here.

Now they're awake.

Now we're the cattle.

Back to top Go down
Barrywise
Sybarite
avatar

Posts : 393
Join date : 2012-11-14
Location : Illinois

PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Mon Jun 05 2017, 22:29

@The Shredder wrote:


@Barrywise wrote:
more often than not we're on the logical fallacy side

Citation needed. Wink


We've all done at least one of these, if you want proof I've probably done it half a dozen times in the past week

https://m.imgur.com/r/Snikamole/mBWBD
Back to top Go down
CurstAlchemist
Wych
avatar

Posts : 849
Join date : 2015-05-01
Location : Las Vegas

PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Mon Jun 05 2017, 23:03

I think he meant it as a joke Barrywise
Back to top Go down
The Shredder
Trueborn
avatar

Posts : 2635
Join date : 2013-04-11

PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Mon Jun 05 2017, 23:56

@Barrywise wrote:
@The Shredder wrote:


@Barrywise wrote:
more often than not we're on the logical fallacy side

Citation needed. Wink


We've all done at least one of these, if you want proof I've probably done it half a dozen times in the past week

https://m.imgur.com/r/Snikamole/mBWBD

I wasn't suggesting that we never did them.

I was questioning the idea that we do them most of the time. Neutral

Incidentally, your logical fallacy appears to be 'linking me to an image that no longer exists'. Must be one of the informal ones. Wink
Back to top Go down
Barrywise
Sybarite
avatar

Posts : 393
Join date : 2012-11-14
Location : Illinois

PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Tue Jun 06 2017, 01:33

Rip the dream Sad

_________________
Want to chat in real time with your fellow archons? Join our Discord channel -> https://discord.gg/5yhRP7v
Back to top Go down
The Red King
Hekatrix
avatar

Posts : 1114
Join date : 2013-07-09

PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Tue Jun 06 2017, 06:23

The Archon is hot garbage.
His huskblade costs 10 points. For no reason it's one of the only models in the game to pay for its base wargear (that nobody else can take).furthermore it's bad. How so? Well a grey knights force falchion is better strength, better ap, same damage and FREE!

The very first entry in our index shows me how little they cared to actually balance us.

_________________
For Khaela Mensha Khaine!
Back to top Go down
TeenageAngst
Hekatrix
avatar

Posts : 1306
Join date : 2016-08-29

PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Tue Jun 06 2017, 06:34

So Brimstone Horrors.

Troops that are 20 points a unit. These things cast Smite on 1 dice, and cast it on a 5+. However it's a full powered Smite. They also can fan out around buffing Daemon Princes and Magnus, allowing them to soak tremendous numbers of wounds before you're able to target any enemy characters while also denying deep strikes. They also have T3 and a 4++ save. They're also all wizards so they can roll 1 dice to deny any of your powers. All this for the low, low price of every time they try to manifest Smite, they sacrifice a Brimstone Horror. Woo.

So Poxwalkers.

Every time they kill an enemy infantry, they get a new Poxwalker. However, the rules don't specify where they are placed. So if you kill 10 enemy infantry, you can daisy chain 10 Poxwalkers across the board into another unit, and suddenly that unit is now also in combat with the Poxwalkers. Since you also remove units from anywhere you want when you die, you can use this to effectively bump your unit of Poxwalkers from combat to combat without ever declaring a charge.

The most thoroughly tested game, guys.

_________________
Really terrible videos about tiny plastic space elfs intended to help you get gud scrub:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCcZP8WGIhte5TmCWQXsZO4A

Flawless pieces of literary perfection:
https://www.fanfiction.net/u/2805979/
Back to top Go down
TheBaconPope
Kabalite Warrior
avatar

Posts : 206
Join date : 2017-03-10

PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Tue Jun 06 2017, 06:42

Quote :
The most thoroughly tested game, guys.

Nah, those examples aren't important. What really matters is that Agonizers cost exactly four points. And Dark Muses forbid the game breaking shenanigans that would occur if an Archon wasn't exactly fifty four points.

_________________
"Death solves all problems. No man, no problem."
Back to top Go down
CptMetal
Trueborn
avatar

Posts : 2644
Join date : 2015-03-03
Location : Ruhr Metropolian Area

PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Tue Jun 06 2017, 10:51

@The Shredder wrote:
@TeenageAngst wrote:
Absolutely. If you can't handle criticism you shouldn't post on message boards. We are allowed to not like things.

This.

What puzzles me more though is the reaction to criticism. It just doesn't make sense to me.

- If a particular army or build or tactic works well for you, why would it bother you if other people dislike or criticise it? At worst, you can dismiss them and carry on as normal. At best, they might make some legitimate points and help steer you to an even better army/tactic/build.

- If you are having fun with an army (or 40k in general), why would criticism change that? Unless there's a niggling doubt at the back of your mind that you're not having as much fun as you've convinced yourself you're having. If not, then I can't see how criticism (legitimate or otherwise) would make your games less enjoyable.

I'm not trying to be disparaging towards those who dislike criticism or negativity. I'm just saying that I genuinely don't understand their position in wanting to remove such from the forum.


It´s not about critisism. It´s about productivity. It´s not that I have nothing else to do. I´ve got a job, a family and not much time and I want to enjoy my stay here and get better at playing DE...um Drukhari.
If everything I hear is how much we suck, why should I visit the Dark City? Of course legitimate critisism is okay, but let´s try to figure out solutions instead of just lamenting.

We are the true kin We are not weak and we will not live in self pity!

Woe to our enemies!


@Barrywise wrote:
They usually leave because it's a waste of their time. There's a line between actual constructive criticism and logical fallacies and more often than not we're on the logical fallacy side, which often ends up derailing any good conversation that was happening as we need to back up and address the issue.

I wouldn't consider myself an exalted member of this community by any means. I've been a lurker for 5 years and an on-off poster for 2. But despite my short time here, I've seen a very polarized switch of opinions, going from some of the most well mannered, highly insightful, well experienced players who knew that playing DE meant that their backs were to the wall into what we have now. Gone are the days where the first thought was "Woe to those that oppose me" instead being replaced by angry walls of text declaring that we've lost before a single model has been placed.

I ask each and everyone of you not to change who you are as a person, as we need the diversity of opinion to get a full picture, but to instead remember that we are brothers in arms. While we spend our time squabbling, our cattle has more and more time to prepare for us. The backstabbing and petty politics can come later, we have prey to hunt.

Woe to my enemy.

/endrant

Back on topic. WHERE ARE MY SQUATS?

@Gobsmakked wrote:
@Von Snabel wrote:
Isn't the whole purpous of this thread to kind of scramble all those negative people togeather so we don't have to deal them on the rest of the forums ?

Yes, probably, but that doesn't still doesn't give everyone free reign to say absolutely anything.

@Skulnbonz wrote:
...... If someone is no longer here because another player had something negative to say about Dark Eldar, I think that says more about the player that left than it does about the forums.

Don't cater to the weak, it will only bring the strong down.

@Skulnbonz
What kind of attitude is that? Reality check: This forum is made to help Dark Eldar players. It´s meant to be a community. Not some hostile environment. And whining before you put a model down is not a sign of a "strong" player FYI.

_________________
+++++INCOMING TRANSMISSION+++++
The Dark Eldar Codex sucks. You probably won just because your enemy loaded his dice to loose. Never forget this mantra and spread the word. Mention it in every discussion possible, people can´t get enough of that valuable information and need to be reminded regularely.
+++++END OF TRANSMISSION+++++
http://www.thedarkcity.net/t12720-tainted-reborn
Back to top Go down
The Shredder
Trueborn
avatar

Posts : 2635
Join date : 2013-04-11

PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Tue Jun 06 2017, 12:34

@CptMetal wrote:

If everything I hear is how much we suck, why should I visit the Dark City? Of course legitimate critisism is okay, but let´s try to figure out solutions instead of just lamenting.

Well, what do you expect when you play emo-Eldar? Wink
Back to top Go down
Demantiae
Sybarite
avatar

Posts : 261
Join date : 2015-01-07

PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Tue Jun 06 2017, 12:47

DE in 7th were arguably the worst army of all with more weak units and holes in their capabilities than any other army. I think negativity is kind of justified. It's nice seasoned players remember the halcyon days of 5th when DE reigned supreme but sometimes you gotta call a spade a spade. The attitude of the forum was a direct reflection of the state of the faction. You didn't so much negativity on other forums about the DE, but then nobody talked about the DE because nobody played them (and some players probably had never even seen them on the table). As a DE specific forum it's naturally going to reflect the state of the faction people came here to discuss. 8th seems to have brought better prospects for the True Kin so hopefully we'll see the mood of the forum change in the coming months.

As for the criticism here, many of them are just rants. The issue about points costs is real simple to understand. It's easier to balance units/weapons in real time if all their costs are separated. You can focus in on whether a unit with a specific weapon is stronger or weaker with that weapon than other units with the same weapon if you have separated costs. And you can then determine if it's that weapon that is weak/strong or the unit itself. If it's the unit then you adjust it's costs. If it's the weapon then you adjust it's cost instead. And if that means adjusting the costs of other units that can buy that same weapon then you can do that too. If Talos with Heat Lances are just weaker than Reavers with Heat Lances (but Reavers are real good with them), but Talos are good with Haywire then you can determine if the heat lance needs a price reduction (and determine if Reavers and Scourge need to go up in value to balance them) or if the Talos needs to come down in price. To do this though GW is going to need to move it's codex's to a digital format, or at least maintain a digital repository for all datasheets that can be adjusted whenever they need to.

The playtesting complaints are unfounded. Playtesters don't write the rules, they test them, make suggestions, that may or may not be taken on-board. Some of the testers suggestions weren't followed, this has been pointed out by said testers. But think of it from GW's perspective. 7th ed was losing players and it was a massive turn-off to new players. It was just a broken game. With the new management that actually cared about the state of the game and player-base they needed to pull the rug out and overhaul the game. Fast. All those products we saw last year were already in the pipeline and would have cost them money to cancel, so they came out anyway. Meanwhile they were scrambling to get 8th ed together. There wasn't a lot of time for testing or hammering out the fine details. What we have is GW's stop-gap measure, that they have admitted is a temporary state for the game, whilst they work out the codex's and lists proper. There are oversights and still some balancing issues but we have a game that's playable now and way more balanced than 7th was. GW now has time to let players play and provide feedback. They openly said it is a living system, so they're willing to change it if it needs changing. Play the game, work out what's wrong with it and provide feedback so they can change it. If 90% of their player base declare they want some of the complexity back, it'll come back. This isn't the GW most people remember.

There's a bunch of things that can be changed about the 8th DE but just ranting about them won't help anyone. Complaints should be followed by an explanation and a possible solution.

_________________
------------------------------
The Bone Flower
------------------------------
Back to top Go down
Count Adhemar
Dark Lord of Granbretan
avatar

Posts : 6537
Join date : 2012-04-26
Location : London

PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Tue Jun 06 2017, 12:52

Excellent post!

_________________

You have been weighed, you have been measured, and you have been found wanting. In what world could you possibly beat me?
Back to top Go down
Skulnbonz
Wych
avatar

Posts : 549
Join date : 2012-07-13
Location : Tampa

PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Tue Jun 06 2017, 13:02

@CptMetal wrote:

@Skulnbonz
What kind of attitude is that? Reality check: This forum is made to help Dark Eldar players. It´s meant to be a community. Not some hostile environment. And whining before you put a model down is not a sign of a "strong" player FYI.

And how is pretending everything is great going to HELP players looking to get better?
Sorry to burst your bubble, but everyone does not get a trophy, we are not all winners and there is no Santa Claus.

What you take as "Hostile" others take as criticism. Try not to use your personal perception to paint an entire community. How do you make an army better? by minimizing the weaknesses and maximizing the strengths. But to do that, you have to POINT OUT THE WEAKNESSES.

Geez!

This is basic stuff here.

That being said, I think there are quite a few exploitable builds that will surprise people that Dark Eldar can pull off. Sadly, Hellions did not make the cut (and i was really wishing they would).
That is all that I have said negative about DE in 8th. if you want to call that "Hostile", then you are the exact type of person i was referring to when i said not to cater to them, because it will just drag the quality of advice given down.

_________________
ATTITUDE: It is the difference between an ORDEAL and an ADVENTURE!
Back to top Go down
http://www.fantasybattles.com
 
rant about GW and play testers
View previous topic View next topic Back to top 
Page 2 of 19Go to page : Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 10 ... 19  Next

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
THE DARK CITY :: 

GENERAL DARK ELDAR DISCUSSION

 :: Dark Eldar Discussion
-
Jump to: