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4thDimensionWizard
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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Thu Jun 15 2017, 04:38

@Massaen wrote:

What bad mechanics? I keep hearing this but don't see it.

I don't like lots of the mechanics. Here are a few:

No firing arcs.
Everything being able to hurt everything. I'm not completely opposed to this being possible, but their implementation pushes the 40k meta in a direction where hordes=OP.
No vehicle facings.
No templates or mechanic of any kind to discourage clumping of models together.
Weapon Skill not mattering defensively. Apparently in the grim darkness of the far future, no one parries.
No initiative stat. I don't like chargers always attacking first. I would have preferred a charge-round initiative bonus or something.
The loss of ability to reserve units. I know a few can be reserved, but this is a poor substitute for the tactical flexibility every single army had before.
Poor job of migrating movespeeds over to the new movestat: As I mentioned earlier, swooping hawks lost like 6" of movement when migrating to the movement stat.
Assault rules out of transports. No benefit to assaulting from open-topped.
Disembarkation rules: Units must disembark at the beginning of the turn, almost making DE vehicles a bad option for delivering melee troops.
Kneejerk point prices. Wraithknights now around 500 points, and they're not good. Old wraithknight rules were probably worth about that many points. A Vibro-cannon that used to cost 30 points now costs 97 points. Vaul's Batteries weren't units anyone was saying were OP. They also lost 2 toughness when they were tripled in price. Why for? Good question.
Characters not being able to join a unit. I just think this is dumb, though I know why they did it. I know some people disliked deathstars. I didn't have a problem with them. They could be dealt with in various ways. GW could have implemented more tools for dealing with deathstars instead of just eliminating them.
A soulless psyker system. I have around 20 psyker models, and since those are generally blisters, that's about $400 dollars worth of over-priced plastic at this point. The psychic system doesn't have any room to be strategic and fun at all. You're basically shoehorned into 1 or 2 of the same 3 uninspired powers every game, where you have a 50-50 shot at successfully using them.
Booooooooooring.

This was just a quick, off the top of my head response. I could dissect it all in far more detail as to why I find the edition to be bland and lackluster if I wanted to go back and reference the rules, but I don't think you really want me to, so I'll stop here. You get the idea. Cool


To be fair, there are a few mechanics in 8th edition I like, but pretty much every one of them would have been far better if implemented into the framework set up by 6th/7th edition.

I like the movestat.
I like the turn-based deployment system.
I like being able to put multiple units in 1 transport.
...there were probably 1 or 2 other things, but I can't think of them right now. But virtually every single one of the positive changes could have been implemented by tweaking the rules we already had to create a stronger system overall.

But no, they gave us 8th instead. There are a few dimes in there. But who wants to dig through this to get enough to buy a cookie?



Not me. I'm not into that sort of thing. But to each his own. Wink

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4thDimensionWizard
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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Thu Jun 15 2017, 04:50

@TeenageAngst wrote:
My local Warhammer store has forbidden anyone from playing 7th edition in the store after the 17th.

Haha, GW stores banning players from playing 7th or saying anything bad about 8th. HAHAHA.

<Serious Face> But yeah, the overall response has been very positive.

::GW Whispers:: Because if you're not positive, we bag and gag you, got it? Ask the last guy who complained what happens. Oh, you haven't seen him around in awhile, huh? That's right, you haven't. Now pep up, buttercup.

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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Thu Jun 15 2017, 05:11

@TeenageAngst wrote:
My local Warhammer store has forbidden anyone from playing 7th edition in the store after the 17th. They also said no one is allowed to say anything bad about 8th edition while in the store.

I get the reason why you might not be allowed to play 7th - they don't support it anymore and potential new customers might see it and then be unable to access it. It makes some sense.

The no negative statement is just an insecure store manager. All my local managers agree its not perfect and are happy to have that conversation

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TheBaconPope
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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Thu Jun 15 2017, 05:15

Quote :
they don't support it anymore and potential new customers might see it and then be unable to access it. It makes some sense.

Can't this same argument be applied for using old minis? GW no longer supports metal Kabalites so you can't play with them anymore?

You paid for the rulebook. You paid for the codex, supplement, etc. You paid for tactical objective cards, and everything else you need for a game of 7th. The fact of the matter is you paid for all the equipment needed to play a game, and GW saying you can no longer play an old edition of the game is like saying you can no longer field 5th edition Space Marine Models.

Edited for typos
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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Thu Jun 15 2017, 05:23

@TheBaconPope wrote:
Quote :
they don't support it anymore and potential new customers might see it and then be unable to access it. It makes some sense.

Can't this same argument be applied for using old minis? GW no longer supports metal Kabalites so you can't play with them anymore?

You paid for the rulebook. You paid for the codex, supplement, etc. You paid for tactical objective cards, and everything else you need for a game of 7th. The fact of the matter is you paid for all the equipment needed to play a game, and GW saying you can no longer play an old edition of the game is like saying you can no longer field 5th edition Space Marine Models.

Edited for typos

Sorry mate - you have missed the point. They are quite within their rights to stop you playing it in a GW store - no one is stopping you playing it at home.

And yes, some minis are no longer available - but the game is the vehicle for the models and when a new customer comes in you don't want them seeing an old game using things you cant buy in store (like templates) and confusing the sales process. Its a business call - its not about them being a dick.

Plenty of stores allow the models from FW (which you can't buy in store) as well as OOP models which were GW produced.

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TheBaconPope
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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Thu Jun 15 2017, 05:30

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Sorry mate - you have missed the point. They are quite within their rights to stop you playing it in a GW store - no one is stopping you playing it at home.

Aside from homicide and larceny, there's very little they don't have the right to do in their store. This is a bit of a non issue, I'm not contesting that they can, it's whether or not they should.

Quote :
And yes, some minis are no longer available - but the game is the vehicle for the models and when a new customer comes in you don't want them seeing an old game using things you cant buy in store (like templates) and confusing the sales process. Its a business call - its not about them being a dick.

Okay, but the same logic can be applied to minis. I'd I'm using a 3rd edition Raider, and someone likes the look of it and wishes to purchase it, will that not create just as much confusion? It's a business call, sure, but one that is hard to define anything but arbitrary limitations on. Again, if I can use OOP models I bought from the company, why can't I use an OOP book I bought from the company?

Quote :
Plenty of stores allow the models from FW (which you can't buy in store) as well as OOP models which were GW produced.

Plenty of stores still allow 7th Edition games. Heck, plenty would allow Rouge Trader if you have the rules. Again, in my opinion, this is tangential to the topic at hand.

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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Thu Jun 15 2017, 08:33

The major difference is that the old miniatures often still help people to buy a newer model even if the old one is not availible anymore. So yes it might feel arbitrary, but one will help greatly with the sales while the other does not. They would probably prefer a well painted newer army but they will not blame people for a crappy paint job or older models and tell them they cannot join.
But a different game is something else. It will not help with sales much, and it shows that their newer product might be worse.


And in my experience initially they are harsh about no older editions, beause they want people to make the switch and give it a proper chance. Same goes for the comments, at least here people are ok with a normal discussion about the good and bad of 8th, but if people just trying to bash 8th all the time yes they cannot keep talking crap about something they try to sell there. It is still a game STORE first and a place to play games second.

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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Thu Jun 15 2017, 08:45

>Old, poorly painted models help sell new models that they look almost nothing like.

>Old version of the game which uses all the new models "confuses the selling process".

Riddle me that one, Batman.

Also yeah I don't intend to play much longer at the Warhammer store if they're going to be that pedantic. It's a matter of principle at this point. I paid good money for my models, and I am playing a GW game in the store. If it's not the current version, who cares? If they want to tell me no I will take my business elsewhere.

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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Thu Jun 15 2017, 08:58

I had similar arguments when resisting the shift from 8th to aos but the store manager told me to make a decent go of aos and now....... Well I still don't love it as much I loved 8th but I do enjoy it
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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Thu Jun 15 2017, 09:04

AoS is a time waster. I can't invest myself in it at all.

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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Thu Jun 15 2017, 11:03

I thought I'd add my own thoughts to these.

@4thDimensionWizard wrote:

I don't like lots of the mechanics. Here are a few:

No firing arcs. What's especially strange about this one is that GW removed the free pivot from vehicles. So a Demolisher that moves 6" isn't allowed to rotate, and yet is still somehow able to fire its gun backwards.
Everything being able to hurt everything. I'm not completely opposed to this being possible, but their implementation pushes the 40k meta in a direction where hordes=OP. I don't object to this one. I think it's necessary when you're having stupid differences in scale.
No vehicle facings. I don't see why this couldn't have been done in the new rules - with different facings having different toughness or save values.
No templates or mechanic of any kind to discourage clumping of models together. I don't hate this, probably because so many templates in 7th were just absurd.
I get that hordes should be vulnerable to blasts, but it's rather tiresome when they can just delete whole units. Torrent Flamers were one of the worst offenders - as they had all the benefits of flamers without any of the weaknesses. And were usually S6 with good AP to boot.

That aside, what I do hate is what happened to blasts and flamers. Why do they all have to have random values? Is it really that hard to just pick a number? What's more, why not have a mechanic that gives them extra hits based on the number of models in the target unit? e.g. small blasts could get 2 shots normally, but get +1 against targets with 5 models or more and an extra +1 if the target contains 10 or more models.

Weapon Skill not mattering defensively. Apparently in the grim darkness of the far future, no one parries. Agreed entirely.
No initiative stat. I don't like chargers always attacking first. I would have preferred a charge-round initiative bonus or something. Agreed. Also, the replacement for initiative just seems like a real faff to do with multiple combats.
The loss of ability to reserve units. I know a few can be reserved, but this is a poor substitute for the tactical flexibility every single army had before. I'm indifferent about this. With the new reserve mechanics, I imagine it's to stop both players reserving most of their respective armies and then playing chicken with one another.  Wink
Poor job of migrating movespeeds over to the new movestat: As I mentioned earlier, swooping hawks lost like 6" of movement when migrating to the movement stat. I think the bigger issue is that the small differences in movement speed are largely lost. The difference between moving 6" and 7" is negligible compared to the difference between moving 6"
and moving 12" with a bike or jump pack.

Assault rules out of transports. No benefit to assaulting from open-topped. I hate this one.
Disembarkation rules: Units must disembark at the beginning of the turn, almost making DE vehicles a bad option for delivering melee troops. Yeah, I think the transport rules in 8th are abysmal.
Kneejerk point prices. Wraithknights now around 500 points, and they're not good. Old wraithknight rules were probably worth about that many points. A Vibro-cannon that used to cost 30 points now costs 97 points. Vaul's Batteries weren't units anyone was saying were OP. They also lost 2 toughness when they were tripled in price. Why for? Good question. It looks like they're trying to make infantry more viable by making everything else drastically more expensive.
Characters not being able to join a unit. I just think this is dumb, though I know why they did it. I know some people disliked deathstars. I didn't have a problem with them. They could be dealt with in various ways. GW could have implemented more tools for dealing with deathstars instead of just eliminating them. I agree partially. I think that death stars were a problem, but the issue wasn't that characters could join units. The issues were:
- The ally rules.
- The stupid wound-allocation system that let characters tank wounds or pass them to other models in the squad basically as they chose.
- Ridiculous psychic powers like Invisibility
Characters joining units worked fine in previous editions and wasn't something that needed to be changed.

A soulless psyker system. I have around 20 psyker models, and since those are generally blisters, that's about $400 dollars worth of over-priced plastic at this point. The psychic system doesn't have any room to be strategic and fun at all. You're basically shoehorned into 1 or 2 of the same 3 uninspired powers every game, where you have a 50-50 shot at successfully using them.
Booooooooooring. I much prefer the new system for casting powers and I'm glad that stuff like Invisibility is gone. At the same time, I don't understand why races had to go down to just 3 powers each. Even if they removed the rulebook disciplines, couldn't races like Eldar and Chaos retain 6 powers?

@|Meavar wrote:
Have you tried to jumb out of a moving car, it matters little if you have to open a door or if the car has no roof, it is the speed that is the problem.

No, I haven't tried that. But then I'm not a masochistic space vampire elf with superhuman reflexes who has literally trained for centuries to do just that.

Also, if we're talking about absurdity:

- Have you ever tried duct-taping two assault rifles onto a motorcycle and then firing them with perfect accuracy at targets to your sides or rear, whilst riding at full throttle? Razz

- Let's not forget that a unit that first stops to shoot and then stops again to fight still moves far further than one which spends its entire turn doing nothing but running.
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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Thu Jun 15 2017, 11:34

I bet they are just sick of people coming in solely to complain.

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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Thu Jun 15 2017, 12:58

To be honest i did not like the old Weaponskill chart as i would find myself with WS9 against a blinded guardsman with WS1 and still only hit on 3+... That was the most retarded thing i have ever seen. One of the most skilled killers in the universe still have 1/3 chans to miss a guardsman that is blinded...

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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Thu Jun 15 2017, 12:59

@zergavas wrote:
To be honest i did not like the old Weaponskill chart as i would find myself with WS9 against a blinded guardsman with WS1 and still only hit on 3+... That was the most retarded thing i have ever seen. One of the most skilled killers in the universe still have 1/3 chans to miss a guardsman that is blinded...

I'd have used the current to-wound chart for WS (so if your WS is at least double theirs, you'd hit on 2s).
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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Thu Jun 15 2017, 13:01

@The Shredder wrote:
@zergavas wrote:
To be honest i did not like the old Weaponskill chart as i would find myself with WS9 against a blinded guardsman with WS1 and still only hit on 3+... That was the most retarded thing i have ever seen. One of the most skilled killers in the universe still have 1/3 chans to miss a guardsman that is blinded...

I'd have used the current to-wound chart for WS (so if your WS is at least double theirs, you'd hit on 2s).

^^ Copyright Count Adhemar 2017

That's one of the more annoying things for me. GW could have implemented that change with almost no effort which makes combat simpler and more realistic than the 7e version but instead went for the dumbed down and completely unrealistic version. Evil or Very Mad

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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Thu Jun 15 2017, 13:05

Thats not a bad idea, but me being the only player in the group with high WS makes me think no one would go along with it.

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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Thu Jun 15 2017, 13:22

@zergavas wrote:
Thats not a bad idea, but me being the only player in the group with high WS makes me think no one would go along with it.

Using 7e WS scores, only Lelith and the Succubus would usually benefit from 2+ to hit unless you're fighting WS3 or lower. There are plenty of units in other codexes that would also benefit (Avatar, Bloodthirster, Girlyman, Sanguinor, Daemon Princes, Hive Tyrant, Swarmlord etc). The main benefit however is that combat becomes interactive again. It actually matters what you are fighting against!

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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Thu Jun 15 2017, 13:29

Yes and blind would actuly be painful.

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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Thu Jun 15 2017, 14:01

If this change were implemented, I would move that the melee oriented Phoenix Lords; Jain Zar, Karandras, Drazhar and (to a lesser extent) Fuegan should be moved to WS8.

I'd also appreciate a return to the former BS system. It made things much less confusing when things were being buffed. I've seen the phrase "add 1 to Ballistic Skill" somewhere in the new rules. Does that mean it goes from a 3+ to a 2+, because it's "improving by 1"? Or from a 3+ to a 4+, because you are "adding 1 to the number that is listed in the Ballistic Skill entry"?

AAAAARGHHHH!

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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Thu Jun 15 2017, 15:13

@The Shredder wrote:
@zergavas wrote:
To be honest i did not like the old Weaponskill chart as i would find myself with WS9 against a blinded guardsman with WS1 and still only hit on 3+... That was the most retarded thing i have ever seen. One of the most skilled killers in the universe still have 1/3 chans to miss a guardsman that is blinded...

I'd have used the current to-wound chart for WS (so if your WS is at least double theirs, you'd hit on 2s).

Absolutely this. The WS chart from 7th could have been improved. This would have improved it greatly. Instead...


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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Thu Jun 15 2017, 17:44

How about this complaint for vehicle facings. If GW removed vehicle facing to make the game simpler but felt that it is perfectly fine to add them back in with the advanced rules for Death from the Skies for flyers why didn't they put them back in for all vehicles?
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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Fri Jun 16 2017, 04:03

@CurstAlchemist wrote:
How about this complaint for vehicle facings. If GW removed vehicle facing to make the game simpler but felt that it is perfectly fine to add them back in with the advanced rules for Death from the Skies for flyers why didn't they put them back in for all vehicles?

Stop asking entirely logical questions. Just keep shelling out money and putting plastic together.

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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Fri Jun 16 2017, 05:57

@CptMetal wrote:
I bet they are just sick of people coming in solely to complain.

Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Fri Jun 16 2017, 05:59

We wouldn't complain if we could play the version of the game we wanted. Or if they didn't utterly ruin the new one.

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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    Fri Jun 16 2017, 06:20

I haven't gone to a GW store and complained, but I could see why people might.

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