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4thDimensionWizard
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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    8/6/2017, 08:49

@aurynn wrote:

D-weapons gone? Hooray! Superheavies and Gargants gone? Hooray! The models are no longer autopick or pay-for-win! Whats not to like?

I didn't say those things were bad individually. Just that it was an awful balancing decision to make all those nerfs to a wraithknight and still triple its price. You took each point alone, instead of following your own advice here:

@aurynn wrote:
It seems to me that people tend to pick up particularities without taking context into the evaluation.

Wonderful example above! I completely agree that context is important. I'm really good at paying attention to context. Wink

@aurynn wrote:
Lelith cannot charge 20-man blob of guardsmen alone without fear of suffering a wound or two? Hooray! They dont stand a chance if she takes even 5 girls with her.

She can't take 5 girls with her in the new rules, and because she's considered her own unit, I think the blob might still be able to target her individually in melee, even if you did have a separate unit of wyches in the fight too.

@aurynn wrote:
So yes. For me it is fun just because I cannot decide what to play first... It is so great to have so many viable options, which will most likely be expanded further quite soon.


Everything is viable because everything is so very similar. Nothing really stands out as being that special or interesting, and so taking sub-optimal choices isn't that big of a deal. So yeah, if you're in the hobby for the models and the aesthetic, and you just want to roll some dice, this is probably the edition for you. Congrats!

Unfortunately for me, it doesn't sound enjoyable to me one bit. I want to like my hobby, so I'm holding onto hope that you're right, and that it will get better with actual codex releases, but then, I had hoped that the core release wouldn't do just about everything that it did. Hope may carry me to exactly 1 DE codex release. After that, unless there are some massive improvements, I'll probably just quit 40k and sell off my models. I'm not interested in waiting another few years to see if they will ever get it right.

I don't know what is so difficult about giving us a deep, complex strategy game while making each faction viable. 7th edition was so close. It just needed some tweaks, and maybe some faction redesigns. Instead, we got 40k toddler edition. GW: "Can you roll dice? Then you too can compete at the top levels of strategy wargaming! No real thought required, even for matched play! Buy our stuff today!"

I'm guessing we'll see a lot of new names at the top of old tournaments, because this edition, in my estimation, has made dice rolls more important than sound strategy and tactics. Perhaps that's precisely what GW was going for.

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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    8/6/2017, 08:52

From everything I can see the game was better around 2nd-3rd edition. The lore was wacky, the game was wacky, the models were stylized in that wonderful 80s heavy metal style I love. Every aspect was at some level respected by the developers but without anything taking itself too seriously. I wish the game were headed back towards that but it seems the people making the game forgot what the original intent of it all was and now they've flanderized their own setting and models.

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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    8/6/2017, 09:31

@TeenageAngst
OFC I do not have the codex. But I will wait for it before making any hasty judgements. There will be something more in the dexes, that was said clearly enough. I don't expect (nor want) the bloat of 7th, but I do expect expansion. I do not take AOS as a reference as they already managed to do better job with 8th than with AOS at release. Maybe I am just an optimist, but I find that it makes the game much more fun for me and my friends too.

Yea I played AOS. Yes I do not like the way DE are disadvantaged in buff stacking compared to some other armies from the "power" point of view. But the issue is not that great AND it is fluffy that Kabals, Covens and Cults are out there for themselves. So I am OK with it in the end.

As for Lelith - so what she suffers a wound? She has 2 more than in 7th. I really don't get this. Its soooo minor... A lot of lists posted last few days have Lelith as HQ. Would it be so if this was such an issue? I don't think so.

I am sure you will be able to find a lot of publications in lore that were not invalidated. I think it will be a great majority too. Rules - understandable. Its a friggin overhaul. Many (and I mean it) many people wanted just this. I understand it sucks for you. But it sucks for you for your own personal reasons. There are people where I live returning to W40K because of the changes. Great people that are fun to play with. In other words. I will let GW get away with anything if it brings more of these people to the tables.

Well I don't miss the old models. I do miss some of the things you mention, true. But if I can say this about almost every aspect of my life. I miss old cars, old craftmanship, even girls. :-D Sitting at my backside brooding about it will not bring it back. Given the choice I choose to enjoy what I can. Thats all I am saying.

@4thDimensionWizard
I believe I am looking at the context. WK is far from unplayable. He is just not awesome as before. Particulars of the changes are irrelevant if the result is more or perhaps a little less balanced. I doubt that taking a WK will make you lose your game because of it. And just for the record - he is in fact more like 2-times more expensive. Maybe even less in some builds. I would play him very agressively taking advantage of his titanic feet and the fact he can fall back, shoot and charge again. No... sorry. I wont feel sorry for WKs. They are still good enough.

Maybe you are good at paying attention to context. It may be an issue of priorities. My context will probably be very different from yours due to that. Nothing wrong with that, but 7th apparently appeased you more than me. Is it so wrong to have things sway my way for a while? :-D

Lelith can take wyches with her in a raider. What do you mean she cannot? She charges, she and the girls kill most of the blob and if 1 wound slips through at her from the poor remains of the blob, thats bad luck. Not bad design. She should not be impervious. Nothing should.

I wonder what is your definition of special and interesting? 7th edition WK? Skyhammer? Only interesting to those who field it. Thats what hurts the game. As long as one person's fun will be other person's woe, the game will be pretty bad. You ask for a deep strategic and tactical game, yet this game IS about rolling dice - chance. And most "top" lists of 7th revolved around abusing the dice. That is not strategy or tactic. That is abusing rules. Want a game of pure skill? The game HAS TO have an absolute balance like chess. There is no cheese in terms of WKs... I have absolutely no doubt that an experienced player like you seem to be, will not have any problems beating a newbie in 8th. In 7th? A noob could beat you with a pay-for-win list if you made the mistake of playing say pure DE fluff list. That is less likely to happen in 8th.

Anyway I didn't mean to start any loooong discussions. 8th - Like it or hate it. Its everyone's prerogative.
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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    8/6/2017, 09:47

Hey. Don't get optimistic here! Wink
This is about rants. Let them rant here so they don't clog the other threads.
So now let's get out of this chamber of negativity and have some fun. What do you say? Smile

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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    8/6/2017, 10:05

CptMetal attempts to coax us out of this thread:

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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    8/6/2017, 10:24

@CptMetal
True. I apologise for using pink in this corner of Commoragh. It won't happen again. :-)
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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    8/6/2017, 16:21

You sound like one of those apologists for GW saying Fantasy NEEDED to die and OF COURSE they couldn't carry over all the armies to AoS.

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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    8/6/2017, 21:06

Let's not let this escalate into personal remarks and namecalling. Keep it civil please.

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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    9/6/2017, 09:56

@aurynn wrote:
WK is far from unplayable. I doubt that taking a WK will make you lose your game because of it. No... sorry. I wont feel sorry for WKs. They are still good enough.

It's 502 points to get a basic WK with the default 2 heavy wraithcannons. That's 25% of a 2000 point list, and he dies in 2 turns to about 400 points of kabalite warriors, swooping hawks, and other cheap chaff units, on average. In only a single turn, due to the damage making him far less effective, he's basically rendered useless by these cheap, numerous models.

@aurynn wrote:
In 7th? A noob could beat you with a pay-for-win list if you made the mistake of playing say pure DE fluff list.

This sounds like you don't think lists that you assemble should matter that much, which would basically make this a simple dice game. There is a massive difference between having dice in your skill-based game, and designing the game to where the dice matter more than decision-making. There is nothing wrong with liking a more simple dice game, it just isn't for me. I could play a dice game with a much smaller investment of both time and money, and if I just wanted to play with toy soldiers without complex rules getting in the way, I'm sure my nephew would love for me to play with his army men with him.

I think it's safe to say that you and I don't like the same types of games, and that's OK. I just wish in this "three ways to play" system, they could have made one way for each of us.

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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    9/6/2017, 10:05

@4thDimensionWizard wrote:
@aurynn wrote:
WK is far from unplayable. I doubt that taking a WK will make you lose your game because of it. No... sorry. I wont feel sorry for WKs. They are still good enough.

It's 502 points to get a basic WK with the default 2 heavy wraithcannons. That's 25% of a 2000 point list, and he dies in 2 turns to about 400 points of kabalite warriors, swooping hawks, and other cheap chaff units, on average. In only a single turn, due to the damage making him far less effective, he's basically rendered useless by these cheap, numerous models.

Worth noting that the Heavy Wraithcannon has doubled the number of shots in 8e so each Wraithknight is chucking out 4 S10, AP-4, D6 Damage shots per turn, which is pretty impressive firepower on a fast and tough platform.

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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    9/6/2017, 10:42

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@4thDimensionWizard wrote:
@aurynn wrote:
WK is far from unplayable. I doubt that taking a WK will make you lose your game because of it. No... sorry. I wont feel sorry for WKs. They are still good enough.

It's 502 points to get a basic WK with the default 2 heavy wraithcannons. That's 25% of a 2000 point list, and he dies in 2 turns to about 400 points of kabalite warriors, swooping hawks, and other cheap chaff units, on average. In only a single turn, due to the damage making him far less effective, he's basically rendered useless by these cheap, numerous models.

Worth noting that the Heavy Wraithcannon has doubled the number of shots in 8e so each Wraithknight is chucking out 4 S10, AP-4, D6 Damage shots per turn, which is pretty impressive firepower on a fast and tough platform.

It seems impressive on the surface, but lances are actually a points sink on things like a ravager against tough units like a WK. So it stands to reason that the WKs wraithcannons similarly suffer from being on an expensive platform. I did a bit of math hammer earlier, and masses of kabalites with dark lances sprinkled in do WAY more damage to a WK than equal points worth of ravagers, regardless of whether the ravagers have DLs or Dissies.

Basically, since D weapons aren't a thing any more, and a basic dark lance gets D6 damage, those heavy wraithcannons are fairly underwhelming when you're paying 500 points for the platform they're on. There is nothing particularly special about the wraithcannons with the loss of D weapons. You'd be way better off with 5 ravagers rocking 15 DLs, or 60 Kabalite Warriors with 6 DLs for roughly the same price.

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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    9/6/2017, 10:50

@4thDimensionWizard
Well I believe that we are just looking at the game from different angles. Wahrammer is and ever was a chance game (there are very few games with more dice rolled) and the closer are the respective powers of the list and skills of the players the more does the chance affect the result. That is why top players win by using the dice against their opponents. There are quite a few resources on that from very good players. 8th mitigates this to an extent. So while in 7th we were pushed into certain builds (to influence chance in our favour), 8th has many more options while being LESS of a chance game. Maybe just a little, but less nevertheless. :-D
My point being that I do believe that in time, 8th will prove to be much more tactical (maybe not as much strategic) game as 7th.
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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    9/6/2017, 10:53

@aurynn wrote:
8th has many more options while being LESS of a chance game.

I can't agree with you on either of those statements, and almost feel as if I'm being told the sky is red right now.

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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    9/6/2017, 10:59

@4thDimensionWizard wrote:
Basically, since D weapons aren't a thing any more, and a basic dark lance gets D6 damage, those heavy wraithcannons are fairly underwhelming when you're paying 500 points for the platform they're on. There is nothing particularly special about the wraithcannons with the loss of D weapons. You'd be way better off with 5 ravagers rocking 15 DLs, or 60 Kabalite Warriors with 6 DLs for roughly the same price.

I agree about the Wraithcannons - in that they're now only a little better than Bright Lances.

However, I'm rather puzzled by your comparisons.

A Wraithknight with 2 Heavy Wraith Cannons is 502pts (though more likely 526, as I suspect most people would also at least stick a couple of Shuriken Cannons on it).

The Warriors are pretty close at 540pts. Although, given the comments in the other thread, it seems many people would want to have Blast Pistols, Agonisers and PGLs on the Sybrites, which would bring the cost to 642pts. But if we ignore that then they're pretty close to the WK.

However, 5 Ravagers with 3 Dark Lances apiece is 775pts - about 50% more than the WK.


Also, with regard to the warriors, I'm still not sold that the IG approach is a good idea. At almost twice the cost of a guardsman (and with no orders or other meaningful buffs), I think our infantry is too expensive to be massed effectively. This isn't really a point in the WK's favour, I'm just saying that I probably wouldn't use massed infantry either.
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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    9/6/2017, 11:00

@4thDimensionWizard wrote:
@aurynn wrote:
8th has many more options while being LESS of a chance game.

I can't agree with you on either of those statements, and almost feel as if I'm being told the sky is red right now.

Fair enough.
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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    9/6/2017, 11:03

@The Shredder wrote:

However, 5 Ravagers with 3 Dark Lances apiece is 775pts - about 50% more than the WK.

Yeah, I forgot to add the price of the dark lances to the price of the ravager that they automatically come on again. Such an unintuitive system. Evil or Very Mad

Still, you'd probably also be better off with 3.2 ravagers firing 9 shots than paying for a wraithknight/bullet magnet.

But mass kabalites trumps them all. Just like massing basically any cheap infantry in the game sort of trumps almost everything else in the game.

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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    9/6/2017, 11:16

@4thDimensionWizard wrote:
Basically, since D weapons aren't a thing any more, and a basic dark lance gets D6 damage, those heavy wraithcannons are fairly underwhelming when you're paying 500 points for the platform they're on. There is nothing particularly special about the wraithcannons with the loss of D weapons. You'd be way better off with 5 ravagers rocking 15 DLs, or 60 Kabalite Warriors with 6 DLs for roughly the same price.

You can actually only get 3 DL Ravagers for the cost of the Wraithknight (they're 155 each). So that's 9 DL shots per turn, vs 4 Wraithcannon shots from the Wraithknight. Probably still better off with Ravagers but the WK does wound tougher stuff (T8-10) easier than the Ravagers so might be worth thinking about.


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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    9/6/2017, 11:37

The kabalites come in a bit higher, then your 500, but that is ok then we just give him the additional guns he can also take.

You still have the option to put more guns on the wraithknight, which makes the shooting significantly cheaper for each shot.

Your 60 kabalites with 6 dl deal 9 wounds to one guy (which will be quite hard to get all to shoot at him without moving, if you do you lose another wound or so because of the to hit penalty).
The kabalites come in a bit higher around 550, but that is ok then we just give him the additional guns he can also take.
If he would shoot at a similar large target from the enemy with his wraithguns and 2 starcannons, and he deals as well around 9 wounds. So yes he has less damage against something that is not as big, but he has more mobility since he can ove without penalty, you can lock troops in combat but cannot be locked into combat in return. Has less problems with line of sight, a bigger range, but you lose out on sheer number of models (remember the big blobs also kill roughly 1/3 of their own). You completely lack anti infantry which hurts a lot, I give you that. And you lose some effectiveness once you suffered half dmage (but the same goes for the kabalites). So no he is no longer the all around solution to everything, that was indestructible. Yes he has more of a specialised function. He is still good at shooting heavy tanks etc of the table. But now he needs his alpha strike more then before where he was just a cheap invunerable monster.
So maybe he is not the best anymore. He is also not completely useless such as many things were in 7th. He might be a little bit overprized, but not nearly as much as he was underprised before.
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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    9/6/2017, 12:58

@|Meavar wrote:

Your 60 kabalites with 6 dl deal 9 wounds to one guy (which will be quite hard to get all to shoot at him without moving, if you do you lose another wound or so because of the to hit penalty).

They actually do about 11 wounds to the 1 guy by my calculations. 3.5 wounds per dark lance wound. And that is without rapid firing any of their splinter shots. If they get rapid fire range, that's another 6 wounds. And the penalty for moving is on a model by model basis, right? If so, you can reposition your splinter rifles while keeping the 36" dark lances stationary.

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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    9/6/2017, 14:28

how do you get 11 wounds?
6 shots = 4 hits is 2 wounds is 7 damage (or less if if you move)
60 splinter = 40 hits is 6.66 wounds is 2.22 damage after saves = roughly 9 total??
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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    9/6/2017, 17:40

4DW isn't taking it far enough. The Wraithknight is absolutely useless. The reason is, as bad as its points efficiency is, that's just the tip of this iceberg. After 12 wounds he goes from being a mediocre points sink to straight up dead weight. It can't recover those wounds, it can't get out of its own way, it can't fight back, and it can't stop the hurt from coming. It's a big, fat mess wobbling around the battlefield.

Quote :
My point being that I do believe that in time, 8th will prove to be much more tactical (maybe not as much strategic) game as 7th.

We had this discussion at the shop. There were about 10 or so of us of all ages gathered around discussing 8th as we were playing it yesterday. The teenagers were upset there were no more gifts of Chaos and no more challenges. They named all their HQs and now they can't fight with them in units or anything now so a lot of that magic is gone for them. The Tau player (who was playing Thousand Sons) wasn't even upset that his Tau were bad now, as at least no one would complain about playing him. He was upset the game was boring, that there was no tactical depth to it. The Necrons player echoed my sentiment that we we lost the depth of the strategy. We used to lose sleep playing around with lists in Battlescribe and talking about them with friends, but we know that isn't going to happen anymore. The Guard player wasn't having fun with his tanks anymore because all the strategy of armor facing and the gun arcs and stuff was gone. We liked some of the new rules, like the -AP and to-hit and to-wound rules, but none of us liked the oversimplification.

This wasn't just some naysayers, this was literally everyone who played at the shop regularly trying to like the game by giving it a chance and just becoming more and more frustrated with how empty it felt.

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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    9/6/2017, 17:43

Any chance that you and Wizard are playing the same crowd? You seem to get a very similar resonance.

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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    9/6/2017, 17:56

Overall, I think the playtest team did a much better job this time than ever in GW history. There are some questionable pricing decisions, but otherwise I think they've done pretty well.

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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    9/6/2017, 19:04

I'm looking forward to giving it a go but I do have my doubts. I joined in 4th edition and have always been primarily a grey knight player and came to this forum to get tips with making a dark eldar army for something different to my grey knights. But in this new edition I think dark eldar will become my main force because from what I've seen of the grey knights in this edition they look boring and they killed my favourite tactic of deep strike in with strike squads with 2 incinerators and burn something to death the turn you turn up nope sonny Jim you now have to be 9" away and flamer type weapons only have a 8" range too bad.
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PostSubject: Re: rant about GW and play testers    9/6/2017, 20:57

I saw a Space wolf deathstar earlier today, it was even worse than before.

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