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 Scourges: Haywire vs Dark Lance

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Endstation
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PostSubject: Scourges: Haywire vs Dark Lance   Sun Jun 04 2017, 07:43

Hey Guys,

did somebody some math on the equipment of the Scourges?

I equipped my Scourges with Haywire blasters in 7th, let the shock and kill reliable a rhino every round.

Are the haywire blasters any good? Or did I miss something?

Example:
13 Scourges, all with dark lances, attacking a rhino.
They hit 2/3, wound 2/3 and do 3.5 damage / hit and 20,22 damage total

For the same amount of points you get 17 Scourges with Haywire Blasters.

They hit on 2/3, but wound on 2/6, dealing 1 damage after a 4+ save. additionally they do mortal wounds, 1 wound on 1/3 and 2 wounds on 1/6 for a damage total of 9,44


I'm ignoring some details. Solarite tax, smaller range of the haywire blasters, possible invulnerable Saves, Heavy trait of the dark lances. But I Think that won't change so much, assuming, you play the units different (no shocking dark lances)


Any errors in this math?

Thanks
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Demantiae
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PostSubject: Re: Scourges: Haywire vs Dark Lance   Sun Jun 04 2017, 10:33

Haven't done the maths yet but haywire don't look at all like theyre meant to take on vehicles now. They don't do near the damage of heat or dark lances. Looks like haywire is now for mortal wounding badass characters and finishing off tough units of all kinds, particularly stuff with those invul saves.

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Endstation
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PostSubject: Re: Scourges: Haywire vs Dark Lance   Sun Jun 04 2017, 10:45

They inflict mortal wounds only if targeting vehicles...didn't read all indices, but most characters won't be vehicles.
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PostSubject: Re: Scourges: Haywire vs Dark Lance   Sun Jun 04 2017, 11:05

Keep in mind that they do the mortal Wound ADDITIONALLY when they roll a 6.
But they aren't worth it nevertheless in my opinion. Better take Blaster or dark lances or just a Ravager.

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PostSubject: Re: Scourges: Haywire vs Dark Lance   Sun Jun 04 2017, 11:20

So haywire is dead then? I don't see a situation where you'd neeed to rely on mortal wounds when a lance negates practically all armour saves. Even against a 5++ the chance of a haywire doing something is still weak compared to the likelihood of a lance doing a ton of damage.

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Endstation
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PostSubject: Re: Scourges: Haywire vs Dark Lance   Sun Jun 04 2017, 11:45

@Demantiae wrote:
So haywire is dead then? I don't see a situation where you'd neeed to rely on mortal wounds when a lance negates practically all armour saves. Even against a 5++ the chance of a haywire doing something is still weak compared to the likelihood of a lance doing a ton of damage.

Totaly agree. And the standard vehicles shouldn't have an invulnerable save (not talking about YOU, Mr Wraithknight)
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PostSubject: Re: Scourges: Haywire vs Dark Lance   Sun Jun 04 2017, 14:36

Quote :
And the standard vehicles shouldn't have an invulnerable save
Well, aside from our vehicles, of course.

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PostSubject: Re: Scourges: Haywire vs Dark Lance   Sun Jun 04 2017, 15:39

@Endstation wrote:
Totaly agree. And the standard vehicles shouldn't have an invulnerable save (not talking about YOU, Mr Wraithknight)

Wraithknights aren't vehicles but monsters so haywire is wasted on them.
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PostSubject: Re: Scourges: Haywire vs Dark Lance   Sun Jun 04 2017, 16:22

We don´t need haywire to kill a wraith Knight.
We can just use our poison weapons because now we can wound it on a 4+!!

In case someone did miss that:

WE CAN WOUND GIGANTIC STUFF THAT IS NOT A VEHICLE ON 4+!
YEAH!!!
bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce bounce

Sorry. I got carried away.

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PostSubject: Re: Scourges: Haywire vs Dark Lance   Sun Jun 04 2017, 16:51

@CurstAlchemist wrote:
@Endstation wrote:
Totaly agree. And the standard vehicles shouldn't have an invulnerable save (not talking about YOU, Mr Wraithknight)

Wraithknights aren't vehicles but monsters so haywire is wasted on them.

My fault, thank you.

Watched a game on friday where he constantly rolled his invulnerable saves
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PostSubject: Re: Scourges: Haywire vs Dark Lance   Sun Jun 04 2017, 17:27

No problem Endstation, there is a lot of new information and it will take a while for us to remember and adjust to it all.
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PostSubject: Re: Scourges: Haywire vs Dark Lance   Sun Jun 04 2017, 17:51

If you're playing DE vs Eldar and you manage to take down a Wraith Knight with poison rifle shots, pls film it and stick it on youtube for all the world to see. I heard that bathing in the tears of cheesy Wratih Knight owners is a sure way to keep ones skin youthful and fresh. Comorragh sense really.

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PostSubject: Re: Scourges: Haywire vs Dark Lance   Sun Jun 04 2017, 17:53

@Demantiae wrote:
If you're playing DE vs Eldar and you manage to take down a Wraith Knight with poison rifle shots, pls film it and stick it on youtube for all the world to see. I heard that bathing in the tears of cheesy Wratih Knight owners is a sure way to keep ones skin youthful and fresh. Comorragh sense really.

We got a battle report up stating, that wracks nearly killed a wraith knight in close combat. Does that count, too?

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PostSubject: Re: Scourges: Haywire vs Dark Lance   Tue Jun 06 2017, 13:02

Nearly isn't good enough. Nearly is failure. Failure is not acceptable.... :-D

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PostSubject: Re: Scourges: Haywire vs Dark Lance   Tue Jun 06 2017, 13:45

Hm. So we that could be a job for wyches? Tie it up in close combat and make use of the agoniser? We do not have to kill it, just render it useless for many rounds, right?

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PostSubject: Re: Scourges: Haywire vs Dark Lance   Tue Jun 06 2017, 14:11

I'm thinking I'll take either heat lances or regular blasters with my scourges in 8th and leave the dark lances up to my ravagers/razorwings. It sucks to say but it looks like my haywire scourges are going to be benched for a while.
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PostSubject: Re: Scourges: Haywire vs Dark Lance   Tue Jun 06 2017, 14:18

Annoyingly I only built my Scourges fairly recently and they have haywire and blasters. Looks like they should be taking Heat Lances and Dark Lances!

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PostSubject: Re: Scourges: Haywire vs Dark Lance   Tue Jun 06 2017, 18:36

Moving to Tactics.
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PostSubject: Re: Scourges: Haywire vs Dark Lance   Tue Jun 06 2017, 23:14

Yeah looking at the math Haywire is dead.

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PostSubject: Re: Scourges: Haywire vs Dark Lance   Wed Jun 07 2017, 00:24

@CptMetal wrote:
Hm. So we that could be a job for wyches? Tie it up in close combat and make use of the agoniser? We do not have to kill it, just render it useless for many rounds, right?

Unfortunately, wyches can only tie up Infantry models , of which the WK is not, and the WK additionally gets a special rule to let him always retreat and still shoot from Infantry in cc, which our wyches are.

To the topic:

The only things that I see haywire good for is vs Quantum shielding and maybe Knights. Haywire only does 1 damage, so the Quantum shields won't be able to block that, and the mortal wound is also a single wound (unless you get a 6 to wound) so most of the time their shields wont work.

I am not sure what the math for Knights is - if the mortal wounds via haywire is better then the chance of lances etc or not... but I could see it be viable here.
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PostSubject: Re: Scourges: Haywire vs Dark Lance   Wed Jun 07 2017, 00:28

Yep Haywire is amazing against Necrons

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PostSubject: Re: Scourges: Haywire vs Dark Lance   Wed Jun 07 2017, 01:45

Haven't read the Quantum Shielding rule, but I am assuming that it is worded something along the lines of "an attack that hits this vehicle/chariot/quantum_shielded_thing and does more than 1 damage can be ignored or have an extra save thrown against it or be reduced to 1 damage." Or something like that.

Point is, if the wording for the rule is damage-centric then Haywire still gets around it, D3 Mortal Wounds (+1 possible normal wound) is multiple separate Wounds, not a Mortal Wound dealing D3 damage.

Could be completely wrong here, haven't read Necron rules.
Could someone who has read them/ has access to the Index double check?

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PostSubject: Re: Scourges: Haywire vs Dark Lance   Wed Jun 07 2017, 01:59

Quantum shielding says, in so many words, to roll a d6 when you take damage. If the result is lower than the damage taken, you nullify it.
So if you hit it three times with a Ravager and did 6, 5, and 2 damage, it'd roll 1d6 for each - if it rolls a 5 or less on the first, 4 or less on the second, or a 1 on the third, they ignore that hit.
It's insanely powerful.
I've seen Battle Reports where the latter half of the game consisted of nothing but thunderhammers or monstrous creatures standing around, furiously smacking Ghost Arks that were No-Selling harder than John Cena.
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PostSubject: Re: Scourges: Haywire vs Dark Lance   Wed Jun 07 2017, 01:59

Its "roll a D6, if its less than the damage dealt ignore it"
So if you do 6 damage a roll of 1-5 will ignore it, Doing 1 damage always stops it, but takes 14 hits at that point, so 2 damage is higher odds to do more damage faster.

Thats not the full problem with Necrons, they also have "Living Metal" "At the beginning of your turn the model iwth this rule recovers 1 wound". Its only 6 wounds recovered, but when you have 6 vehicles doing that over 5 turns thats a total of 30 wounds recovered.

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PostSubject: Re: Scourges: Haywire vs Dark Lance   Wed Jun 07 2017, 02:40

Cheesus Mice! That sounds broken.

So, from what you're saying...

My approach would be to focus fire on one vehicle at a time.
I assume Living Metal does not come into play after the model is slain? i.e. "If a model is destroyed, leave it on the board. It comes back with one wound next turn."
Because that would be even stupider and...

Broken-er...?

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