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 Causal observations of 8th edition and the tabletop effectiveness of Craftworld Eldar.

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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: Causal observations of 8th edition and the tabletop effectiveness of Craftworld Eldar.   Sun Jun 04 2017, 03:15

The shop had all the books out for perusal today so I perused. The lore is every bit as bad as I feared, and there's a surprising lack of it for most races. I also got in a practice round of open play against CSM with my Craftworlders. Here are some mental notes I took:

- Eldar vehicle equipment stacks itself in a way that surprised me. One allows further advance, one allows a -1 to hit if you advance, and one allows you to fire at full BS if you advance so long as you shoot at the nearest thing. This is a level of tactical depth I didn't expect from this game.

- Eldar tanks are lackluster. They can take some damage but really they're just there to shoot things for 2 turns until stuff gets close enough to hurt it, and then they fall apart. Their shooting is mediocre.

- Dire Avengers are just okay. They're nothing special.

- Warlocks are actually not terrible as their singing spears and witchblades ain't bad in close combat.

- Scatbikes. 2 wounds, but 4+ saves. Their guns are worse due to the rules changing around them rather than from direct nerfs. They still excel at their #1 job, and that's making someone roll dice, but rolling dice is more predictable now. You get exactly what it says on the tin with these guys. I could see spamming them working if you bubble wrap them enough.

- Combat is inevitable by like turn 2 since everything moves more now, making cover hardly worth it, for good or ill.

- I got locked in combat with a Rhino for like 4 turns.

- The words "I declare a charge with my Fire Prism" were uttered and I felt bad.

- Flamers are useless idk why people were freaking out over them they did literally nothing.

- Keeping track of wounds, especially on models that degraded over time, was a nightmare.

- Heldrakes are okay, not nearly as scary as they used to be.

Overall the gameplay felt as thin and flimsy as IKEA furniture compared to 7th. Both my opponent and I looked at each other after playing and shook our heads. It felt exactly like Age of Sigmar with a fresh coat of paint. I can't point to any one unit that did work or was exceptionally good or bad, they were all at the same level of blandness and mediocrity. The tanks didn't plow through anything with their guns, likewise they kinda shrugged plasma shots. It was just... meh. Combat, moving, shooting, morale, it was just meh. It wasn't bad, don't get me wrong, it was entirely functional. If I had to give a recommendation I'd say "yeah, s'okay"

8th edition: Yeah, s'okay.

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PostSubject: Re: Causal observations of 8th edition and the tabletop effectiveness of Craftworld Eldar.   Sun Jun 04 2017, 07:02

I agree on more than a few points...

@TeenageAngst wrote:

- Eldar vehicle equipment stacks itself in a way that surprised me. One allows further advance, one allows a -1 to hit if you advance, and one allows you to fire at full BS if you advance so long as you shoot at the nearest thing. This is a level of tactical depth I didn't expect from this game.

- Eldar tanks are lackluster. They can take some damage but really they're just there to shoot things for 2 turns until stuff gets close enough to hurt it, and then they fall apart. Their shooting is mediocre.

I agree the Eldar tanks are mediocre. I can see a way to run multiple serpents when they all pop the shields to kill a big thing like magnus but its so situational. The -1 to hit is a big problem for the heavy weapons and the item that lets you get around it removes your options for split fire and target selection...

@TeenageAngst wrote:
- Dire Avengers are just okay. They're nothing special.


Yup. They are a great definition of OK in the game actually!

@TeenageAngst wrote:
- Warlocks are actually not terrible as their singing spears and witchblades ain't bad in close combat.

The biggest problem I think with the Warlocks is the cost. You are paying for their powers which are again, only OK.

@TeenageAngst wrote:
- Scatbikes. 2 wounds, but 4+ saves. Their guns are worse due to the rules changing around them rather than from direct nerfs. They still excel at their #1 job, and that's making someone roll dice, but rolling dice is more predictable now. You get exactly what it says on the tin with these guys. I could see spamming them working if you bubble wrap them enough.

I like that the 3 weapons on bikes now each have a purpose - the shuriken cannon might just be the go to default option now thanks to the assault profile and the extra rend ability on 6+ to wound. They get the same volume of hits on the move as the scatter laser - its just the range that's missing... though they can advance and fire unlike the scatter laser

@TeenageAngst wrote:
- Combat is inevitable by like turn 2 since everything moves more now, making cover hardly worth it, for good or ill.

- I got locked in combat with a Rhino for like 4 turns.

- The words "I declare a charge with my Fire Prism" were uttered and I felt bad.

Combat is easy made T2 I agree. I think the terminology of the vehicle assaults is the issue - if you said I declare a Ram with my fire prism it might be better!

Cover is so hard to get now that its far less important.

@TeenageAngst wrote:
- Flamers are useless idk why people were freaking out over them they did literally nothing.

I think flamers are great - the guard ones messed me up! That said, they were heavy or hell hound flamers...

@TeenageAngst wrote:
- Keeping track of wounds, especially on models that degraded over time, was a nightmare.

I didn't find it so bad - and we had plenty of vehicles from 10 wounds up to 24.

@TeenageAngst wrote:
- Heldrakes are okay, not nearly as scary as they used to be.

You didn't take a T1 charge from it then?

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PostSubject: Re: Causal observations of 8th edition and the tabletop effectiveness of Craftworld Eldar.   Sun Jun 04 2017, 07:29

Quote :
I agree the Eldar tanks are mediocre. I can see a way to run multiple serpents when they all pop the shields to kill a big thing like magnus but its so situational. The -1 to hit is a big problem for the heavy weapons and the item that lets you get around it removes your options for split fire and target selection...

If they weren't so expensive or at least had static weapon shots it wouldn't be an issue. The Fire Prism's random dice rolls for it's weaker shots make them extremely unreliable and the Night Spinner's lack of AP meant it was about the same.

Quote :
Yup. They are a great definition of OK in the game actually!

"Yeah, s'okay."

Quote :
The biggest problem I think with the Warlocks is the cost. You are paying for their powers which are again, only OK.

"Yeah, s'okay."

Quote :
I like that the 3 weapons on bikes now each have a purpose - the shuriken cannon might just be the go to default option now thanks to the assault profile and the extra rend ability on 6+ to wound. They get the same volume of hits on the move as the scatter laser - its just the range that's missing... though they can advance and fire unlike the scatter laser

They always did all have a purpose, the problem was people min-maxed around long range rather than utility bikes. In retrospect had I run my Windriders with Shuriken Cannons they would have probably been more effective in 7e.

Quote :
Combat is easy made T2 I agree. I think the terminology of the vehicle assaults is the issue - if you said I declare a Ram with my fire prism it might be better!

No it wouldn't.

Quote :
You didn't take a T1 charge from it then?

No, he kept trying to get it into combat with my grav-tanks, which eventually it did, but I focus-fired the hell out of it early in the game which brought it's effectiveness down by the time it finally got there.

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PostSubject: Re: Causal observations of 8th edition and the tabletop effectiveness of Craftworld Eldar.   Sun Jun 04 2017, 07:47

With such a high charge (30" move plus 2d6 charge) is a guaranteed T1 charge for the drake, pretty much anywhere on the table!

I really enjoyed the games I have had so far - so I can't agree its only okay - I had plenty of cool moments, a few WTF? moments and most importantly - a bunch of laughs and FUN!

Personally, its not AoS and harkens back a lot to the days of 2nd ed 40k - which are some of my fondest gaming memories

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PostSubject: Re: Causal observations of 8th edition and the tabletop effectiveness of Craftworld Eldar.   Sun Jun 04 2017, 07:58

We shall see what happens as time goes on and I get more games under my belt. As it stands, my friend straight up told me he's keeping his 7e books on him when he comes for game night, because he was not having much fun with it. I can't say I blame him.

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PostSubject: Re: Causal observations of 8th edition and the tabletop effectiveness of Craftworld Eldar.   Sun Jun 04 2017, 17:46

Wow, 8th edition must be really terrible if the unplayable goddamn mess of 7th is actually preferable. I figured almost anything would be a step up from 7th. You're saying it's not? That's... Troubling.
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PostSubject: Re: Causal observations of 8th edition and the tabletop effectiveness of Craftworld Eldar.   Sun Jun 04 2017, 18:55

To quote a meme, 7th is terrible, but at least it isn't boring.

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PostSubject: Re: Causal observations of 8th edition and the tabletop effectiveness of Craftworld Eldar.   Sun Jun 04 2017, 20:19

@mynamelegend wrote:
Wow, 8th edition must be really terrible if the unplayable goddamn mess of 7th is actually preferable. I figured almost anything would be a step up from 7th. You're saying it's not? That's... Troubling.

He´s just a nay sayer. Try it for yourself before you jump to conclusions.
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PostSubject: Re: Causal observations of 8th edition and the tabletop effectiveness of Craftworld Eldar.   Sun Jun 04 2017, 23:55

I played a full game and didn't find the experience as rewarding as the previous edition's rules. This means my opinion is invalidated even though I'm formulating it from first hand experience.

OK THEN.

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PostSubject: Re: Causal observations of 8th edition and the tabletop effectiveness of Craftworld Eldar.   Mon Jun 05 2017, 06:31

I runned a small comparision between units in eldar and dark eldar codexes and also comparing to Harlequins. I haven't had a chance to do a test game so all might be bit out of context.

Vypers are expensive compared to what they bring to table, comparable cost to Venoms with plethora of USR (-1 to hit and invu) and Starweavers (-1 to hit and +4 invu) also both are transports. Looks like Vypers are missing few USR's. To enable their extra movement you need 3 which would be more than 250pts.

War walker is bit cheaper but better in melee moves less and (+5 invu)

WK as a base rulesholder is more or less identical to IK (except that IK has +5 invu against shooting always), WK is 80+pts premium to IK base cost. I do not know if you had a chance to test WK, but what is your feeling on it? The guns and weapons WK can equip are priced so making a 500+ wk is easy.

Windriders with twin shuriken catapults have huge increase in cost. Why Twin shuriken catapult costs dearly compared to normal catapult is beyond me.

Eldar Guardians are bit cheaper and more flexible than before.
Dire avengers are cheaper and ok, getting invu costs but ok in melee?

The theme for competitive play I am maybe seeing in the usr's is the -1 to hit modifiers, also auras (from harlequins) and spells from Runes of battle and blind weapons and -1 to hit after advance vehicle gear; enabling -1 to -3 to hit in assault or melee against aeldari units making some smaller bs shooty armies grind teeth before our units go to market in melee.

What kind of 'feel' did you get for the competitive builds/tournament builds for aeldari?
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PostSubject: Re: Causal observations of 8th edition and the tabletop effectiveness of Craftworld Eldar.   Mon Jun 05 2017, 06:42

Competitively I honestly have no idea. I refuse to look at this competitively until the books are physically in my hands as assembling lists and mathhammering is akin to torture using this BS points system and the convoluted way it's laid out in grainy blurry off-center cellphone pictures.

If I was to offer baseless speculation I'd say that stacking buffs is king. I would also say that literally nothing is going to stay out of combat for very long, and that unit duplication is going to be mandatory. So basically find something that works and then run a ton of it while buffing the snot out of it. From a purely competitive standpoint, running a Ynnari psyker next to a big unit of powerful shooting will give you a massive boost to your alpha potential as you'll be able to psychic yourself a soulburst, which can in turn be used to soulburst units that advanced in the previous phase, setting off a chain reaction. Alternatively, utilizing the Power from Pain table will be a massive benefit.

It's honestly going to take about 3-6 months to hammer itself out though before any real meta emerges. Remember this isn't Magic or Pokemon or something this is 40k the game's meta moves slowly.

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PostSubject: Re: Causal observations of 8th edition and the tabletop effectiveness of Craftworld Eldar.   Mon Jun 05 2017, 06:50

@TeenageAngst wrote:
Competitively I honestly have no idea. I refuse to look at this competitively until the books are physically in my hands as assembling lists and mathhammering is akin to torture using this BS points system and the convoluted way it's laid out in grainy blurry off-center cellphone pictures.
You can say that again.

@TeenageAngst wrote:

If I was to offer baseless speculation I'd say that stacking buffs is king. I would also say that literally nothing is going to stay out of combat for very long, and that unit duplication is going to be mandatory. So basically find something that works and then run a ton of it while buffing the snot out of it. From a purely competitive standpoint, running a Ynnari psyker next to a big unit of powerful shooting will give you a massive boost to your alpha potential as you'll be able to psychic yourself a soulburst, which can in turn be used to soulburst units that advanced in the previous phase, setting off a chain reaction. Alternatively, utilizing the Power from Pain table will be a massive benefit.
From the few pages I have read and understanding the Ynnari psyker rule tightly: only Yncarne and Yvraine can use Revenant discipline. Other psykers rule sheet tell which powers they can use (not including revenant). This would make army composition psykerwise unflexible. PfP table seems intriguing to say the least.

@TeenageAngst wrote:

It's honestly going to take about 3-6 months to hammer itself out though before any real meta emerges. Remember this isn't Magic or Pokemon or something this is 40k the game's meta moves slowly.
Never played either, and coming to game in the last year of 7ed, all I have known are the super combos Smile


Last edited by WildCandy on Mon Jun 05 2017, 06:54; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : typos)
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PostSubject: Re: Causal observations of 8th edition and the tabletop effectiveness of Craftworld Eldar.   Mon Jun 05 2017, 06:53

The Yncarne is going to be good-ish and Yvraine serves a purpose now. Even if that purpose is just to provide a unit with an extra shooting phase.

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PostSubject: Re: Causal observations of 8th edition and the tabletop effectiveness of Craftworld Eldar.   Mon Jun 05 2017, 11:15

@TeenageAngst you're right. I have to apologize. It's your opinion after you played your first game and for you, your emotions are valid.
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PostSubject: Re: Causal observations of 8th edition and the tabletop effectiveness of Craftworld Eldar.   Mon Jun 05 2017, 16:17

Cpt Metal you're arguing Anecdotal logical fallacy right? The idea that using a personal experience or isolated example instead of a sound argument or compelling evidence isn't enough for complex data.


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PostSubject: Re: Causal observations of 8th edition and the tabletop effectiveness of Craftworld Eldar.   Mon Jun 05 2017, 16:59

Quote :

@TeenageAngst you're right. I have to apologize. It's your opinion after you played your first game and for you, your emotions are valid.

At least I'm constructively adding to the discussion, unlike you. And just how many games would I need before I'm not "just a nay sayer" exactly? 10? 20? I don't see you saying people who enjoyed it are any less valid for having only played 1 or 2 games.

Get a loada this guy here.

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PostSubject: Re: Causal observations of 8th edition and the tabletop effectiveness of Craftworld Eldar.   Mon Jun 05 2017, 18:39

I already apologized and said your argument is valid. Now let it go..

Let it goooo
Let it go, let it go
Can't hold it back anymore
Let it go, let it go
Turn away and slam the door
I don't care what they're going to say
Let the storm rage on
The cold never bothered me anyway

um..sorry. I got carried away.
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PostSubject: Re: Causal observations of 8th edition and the tabletop effectiveness of Craftworld Eldar.   Mon Jun 05 2017, 19:02

I thought you were being sarcastic.

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PostSubject: Re: Causal observations of 8th edition and the tabletop effectiveness of Craftworld Eldar.   Fri Jun 09 2017, 01:39

Another 8th edition match. This time it was more refined, we graduated from baby's first wargame to actually putting power levels on things. 4 people playing, 50 power levels a person, and one objective in the middle. I ran a Fire Prism, 3 D-Cannon Vaul's Wrath Support Batteries, Dire Avengers, Banshees, an Autarch, 3 Scatbikes, and a Night Spinner against Necrons, a Thousand Sons list with Magnus, and some Orks. Observations are:

- Orks are better, especially in close combat. Necrons are resilient but not invincible by any means and still go down hard to Banshees. Magnus is a paper tiger.

- Banshees are pretty good if they're able to use terrain.

- Dire Avengers are still completely meh.

- Fire Prisms and Night Spinners are still meh.

- D-Cannons are useless against masses of bodies and Necrons, but good against Magnus and War Trukks. Their 24" range is extremely difficult to deal with though and I think Vibro Cannons are better if you're using points.

- People are hating on Scatbikes for some reason recently and I honestly just don't see it. They were a completely reliable 12 dice (re-rolling 1s for the Autarch nearby) chipping away wounds at whatever I pointed them at like clockwork. No complaints at all.

The 3 other people ransacked the middle of the board on turn 1 and I just sat back and punched lead into anything I could. A squad of Banshees ran roughshod over Necrons who were powerless to stop them because of Banshee Masks. At the end of the game I had board domination at the bottom of turn 3 and there was no reclaiming it. So the picture is becoming clearer, and sadly my opinion is still more or less the same. Strikingly, I've now had just short of a dozen people tell me "I'm still down to play 7th if you want". In fact there hasn't been a single person at either of the hobby shops I venture to who hasn't said this to me with no provocation on my part (I try to be more positive about 8th when I'm in a place of business). These next few months are gonna be weird.

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PostSubject: Re: Causal observations of 8th edition and the tabletop effectiveness of Craftworld Eldar.   Fri Jun 09 2017, 10:30

I agree with your original post on most points, except the part where you say: "Yeah, s'okay."


I'd rather play 7th, or play some shadow wars if I want a quicker, more simple game.

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PostSubject: Re: Causal observations of 8th edition and the tabletop effectiveness of Craftworld Eldar.   Fri Jun 09 2017, 16:05

Wait? Even the Ork player preferred to play 7th?
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PostSubject: Re: Causal observations of 8th edition and the tabletop effectiveness of Craftworld Eldar.   Fri Jun 09 2017, 18:05

The Ork player hasn't played the new edition yet so he's still willing to give it a chance. Also most of the changes made to Orks were less "we're going to destroy your lore and replace all your favorite rules with empty holes" and more "we're going to undo a lot of the stupid decisions we made in 7th edition and bring back some of the way it used to work". Orks and Tyranids exist in a strange vacuum where their lore is by and large ancient history and their tabletop game is vastly improved by 8th. It makes total sense for example for a Ork War Trukk to charge a unit of infantry because the thing is covered in weaponry. Not so much for a Chimera or a Fire Prism.

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PostSubject: Re: Causal observations of 8th edition and the tabletop effectiveness of Craftworld Eldar.   Fri Jun 09 2017, 18:22

I bet you'd feel attacked if I sit in a car and try to run you over.
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PostSubject: Re: Causal observations of 8th edition and the tabletop effectiveness of Craftworld Eldar.   Fri Jun 09 2017, 18:32

But if you ran me over in a car, I wouldn't tell people I'd lost a fist fight to you.
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PostSubject: Re: Causal observations of 8th edition and the tabletop effectiveness of Craftworld Eldar.   Fri Jun 09 2017, 18:41

No you wouldn't. Except in case of severe brain damage. But in that case you could also claim that you're a cactus.

But why should you tell people that? What do you want to say?
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