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 which transport for what?

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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: which transport for what?    Mon Jun 12 2017, 15:19

Don't forget that the humble venom never looses speed. A raider will gradually loose accuracy and speed as it looses wounds, the venom keeps its effectiveness until it dies.
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PostSubject: Re: which transport for what?    Mon Jun 12 2017, 17:34

How much more durable is the Venom vs. the Raider with the -1 to Hit?

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PostSubject: Re: which transport for what?    Mon Jun 12 2017, 17:41

By the way, I just noticed that only the Raider has the Hovering rule. So, it seems that you measure to and from the the hull of the raider model, but you measure to and from the base for the Venom. What a strange rule.

@HERO wrote:
How much more durable is the Venom vs. the Raider with the -1 to Hit?

I think the Raider will still be a little more durable (I haven't done the math, but I'm fairly certain that having ~66% more wounds will improve survivability more than a -1 to hit).

The thing is though, I don't think it's worth it given that the Raider becomes considerably worse once it loses half its wounds.
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PostSubject: Re: which transport for what?    Mon Jun 12 2017, 19:03

Having played like 10 Harlequin games this week, i can say this, -1 to hit even on a T5 model is STRONG, adding to the fact that you can move to LoS of S8 weapons easily due to large movements + advancing, it has really helped me a lot.

I think im going to do 3 venoms 2 raiders type of thing, still hammering out what i want to play, i was focusing on harlequins 1st (Im 90% done with how i want to play them, they are much easier to play test and build lists for).

For me the Venoms will be in your face attackers, i'll be putting in spam 5man dudes with blasters.

I'll have 1 raider for hellions and the other for something else idk yet lol.

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PostSubject: Re: which transport for what?    Mon Jun 12 2017, 19:26

@amishprn86 wrote:
Having played like 10 Harlequin games this week, i can say this, -1 to hit even on a T5 model is STRONG, adding to the fact that you can move to LoS of S8 weapons easily due to large movements + advancing, it has really helped me a lot.

I think im going to do 3 venoms 2 raiders type of thing, still hammering out what i want to play, i was focusing on harlequins 1st (Im 90% done with how i want to play them, they are much easier to play test and build lists for).

For me the Venoms will be in your face attackers, i'll be putting in spam 5man dudes with blasters.

I'll have 1 raider for hellions and the other for something else idk yet lol.

Harlequins also have Starweavers that are 4++ with the same stats. Are you using those?

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PostSubject: Re: which transport for what?    Mon Jun 12 2017, 19:41

@HERO wrote:
@amishprn86 wrote:
Having played like 10 Harlequin games this week, i can say this, -1 to hit even on a T5 model is STRONG, adding to the fact that you can move to LoS of S8 weapons easily due to large movements + advancing, it has really helped me a lot.

I think im going to do 3 venoms 2 raiders type of thing, still hammering out what i want to play, i was focusing on harlequins 1st (Im 90% done with how i want to play them, they are much easier to play test and build lists for).

For me the Venoms will be in your face attackers, i'll be putting in spam 5man dudes with blasters.

I'll have 1 raider for hellions and the other for something else idk yet lol.

Harlequins also have Starweavers that are 4++ with the same stats.  Are you using those?

Yes I've been running 6 of them (2x3 units), they are really good but.... they are in melee hit or miss, they work better as Gun platforms for 2-3 turns (move and advance and still shoot), they can be anywhere you need and if you need back up assault they are the back up assault.

The S4 is what hurts them, 2 damage is good but not needed against many things and against vehicles you still need 5's to wound, IMO they are the most overcosted unit in the Harlequins rules.

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PostSubject: Re: which transport for what?    Mon Jun 12 2017, 19:45

@amishprn86 wrote:
@HERO wrote:
@amishprn86 wrote:
Having played like 10 Harlequin games this week, i can say this, -1 to hit even on a T5 model is STRONG, adding to the fact that you can move to LoS of S8 weapons easily due to large movements + advancing, it has really helped me a lot.

I think im going to do 3 venoms 2 raiders type of thing, still hammering out what i want to play, i was focusing on harlequins 1st (Im 90% done with how i want to play them, they are much easier to play test and build lists for).

For me the Venoms will be in your face attackers, i'll be putting in spam 5man dudes with blasters.

I'll have 1 raider for hellions and the other for something else idk yet lol.

Harlequins also have Starweavers that are 4++ with the same stats.  Are you using those?

Yes I've been running 6 of them (2x3 units), they are really good but.... they are in melee hit or miss, they work better as Gun platforms for 2-3 turns (move and advance and still shoot), they can be anywhere you need and if you need back up assault they are the back up assault.

The S4 is what hurts them, 2 damage is good but not needed against many things and against vehicles you still need 5's to wound, IMO they are the most overcosted unit in the Harlequins rules.

Starweavers, lol!

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PostSubject: Re: which transport for what?    Mon Jun 12 2017, 19:46

@amishprn86 wrote:
@HERO wrote:
@amishprn86 wrote:
Having played like 10 Harlequin games this week, i can say this, -1 to hit even on a T5 model is STRONG, adding to the fact that you can move to LoS of S8 weapons easily due to large movements + advancing, it has really helped me a lot.

I think im going to do 3 venoms 2 raiders type of thing, still hammering out what i want to play, i was focusing on harlequins 1st (Im 90% done with how i want to play them, they are much easier to play test and build lists for).

For me the Venoms will be in your face attackers, i'll be putting in spam 5man dudes with blasters.

I'll have 1 raider for hellions and the other for something else idk yet lol.

Harlequins also have Starweavers that are 4++ with the same stats. Are you using those?

Yes I've been running 6 of them (2x3 units), they are really good but.... they are in melee hit or miss, they work better as Gun platforms for 2-3 turns (move and advance and still shoot), they can be anywhere you need and if you need back up assault they are the back up assault.

The S4 is what hurts them, 2 damage is good but not needed against many things and against vehicles you still need 5's to wound, IMO they are the most overcosted unit in the Harlequins rules.

How are you taking Starweavers in squadrons?

Starweavers are a transport and are in units of 1 but the voidweaver can be taken in a squadron of up to 3 but have no transport capacity.
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PostSubject: Re: which transport for what?    Mon Jun 12 2017, 19:48

Oops.

Yes I use Starweavers. I use 4 of them in 2k games, I keep my 3x5 mans in 1 each with my 2 Shadowseers  and Troupe Master sin them, the 4th in just 1 extra Quin.

I like them alot they normally last 4 turns and maybe 2 at the most 3 will die by turn 5.

Edit: I've use a couple Voidweavers, I like them now that they can shoot all 3 guns where ever they want!

I never take more than 2 tho.

My list is normally

Shadowseer x2
Troupe Master
Solitaire
Troupes x5
Troupes x5
Troupes x5
Troupes x6
Starweavers x4
Skyweavers x6
Voidweavers x2

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PostSubject: Re: which transport for what?    Mon Jun 12 2017, 23:04

*Updated and moved to another thread*


Last edited by Hellstrom on Tue Jun 13 2017, 12:56; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: which transport for what?    Mon Jun 12 2017, 23:11

Nice bit of info there, thanks.

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PostSubject: Re: which transport for what?    Tue Jun 13 2017, 09:00

I can't believe you think the the Starweaver is overpriced!

It comes in at 4 points more than a Venom and is better in every way. It is still hard to hit, has a better 4++ and carries 6 models which is a massive bonus over the Venom in 8th edition.

I would take a Starweaver over a Venom every single time without a shadow of a doubt and I personally think that compared to the Venom it is under priced.
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PostSubject: Re: which transport for what?    Tue Jun 13 2017, 09:02

@Dark Elf Dave wrote:
I can't believe you think the the Starweaver is overpriced!

It comes in at 4 points more than a Venom and is better in every way.  It is still hard to hit, has a better 4++ and carries 6 models which is a massive bonus over the Venom in 8th edition.

I would take a Starweaver over a Venom every single time without a shadow of a doubt and I personally think that compared to the Venom it is under priced.

Skyweavers, I thought he said skyweavers at 1st, i think those are overpriced.

Starweavers less than 100pts is perfectly just fine! Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: which transport for what?    Tue Jun 13 2017, 11:23

Ahhh I see. I haven't looked at the Skyweavers yet. I am not happy about the pricing of the Starweaver though. Perhaps the Venom should be cheaper rather than the Starweaver being more expensive but the two units perform very similar tasks and the Starweaver is better by far than a Venom.
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PostSubject: Re: which transport for what?    Tue Jun 13 2017, 11:38

IMO, Starweaver always been better.... and still is, GW taxes DE for some reason.

Starweavers always been same cost, more survivable , can hold 6 instead of 5 and shoots S6 Rending over Poison/extra shots.

If my DE could use them over Venoms i would in a sec!

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PostSubject: Re: which transport for what?    Tue Jun 13 2017, 11:51

What guns do the starweavers use? How many shots?

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PostSubject: Re: which transport for what?    Tue Jun 13 2017, 11:53

Starweave is 2x shuriken cannon, assault 3, 24"
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PostSubject: Re: which transport for what?    Tue Jun 13 2017, 12:26

I'd take 6 S6 with chance to have Ap over 12 Poison 4 any day.

Wounding most things on 3's some of 2's for AI with some breaking armor vs always needing 4's and never breaking armor.

Ive done the math back in 7th when i started playing Corsairs (their venoms have Shuriken Cannons as an upgrade), they where the same in Dead MEQ's (you needed 2's in 7th vs 4's) but now in 8th that might have change, tho it doesnt change for T3 dudes.

I'd still rather have S6 vs Posion b.c of Vehicles and T3

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PostSubject: Re: which transport for what?    Tue Jun 13 2017, 12:30

@Hellstrom wrote:
Just for interest.

Assuming no cover

A Venom will die to:

54 Bolter shots
36 Heavy Bolter shots
27 Plasma shots
8 Lascannon shots

A Raider will die to:
90 Bolter shots
68 Heavy Bolter shots
34 Plasma shots
10 Lascannon shots


Raiders are quite a bit more survivable than Venoms even with the -1 to hit.  They do cost a little more though.

Do not forget it depends a lot on who you are fighting.
I agree if you check space marines the venom is less survivable, although some of the numbers seem of to me, but I did not calculate them, maybe you are right. But now check it for orks and the venom will be more survivable in all cases. (shootas, 216 for the venom, 180 for the raider)
For guard, the differences are very small there is a slight favour for the raider. The better shot they are the worse the venom performs.

Yes starweavers are better in every way for a few points more. Everyone would use them in favour of venoms in a dark eldar army. Even most armies that have no other option for poison might prefer the starweaver.
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PostSubject: Re: which transport for what?    Tue Jun 13 2017, 12:38

It also depends if you are playing armies with Assault weapons or Heavy Weapons.

A Venom is smaller, easier to hide, if my opponent has Devastator ML and Tanks with Heavy Weapons, moving out of LoS forcing them to move for -1 to hit combined with my -1 to hit makes Venoms 100% better.

But if they are a Fast moving Assault shooting army with a Storm Raven, Land Speeders with Heavy Flamers or mass spam Plasma weapons, then the Raider more likely be better.

Its very Rock, Paper, Scissors, thats why i kinda am doing both, i think a 3/2 combo of Venom/Raider is best with some type of Heavy/Flier back up.

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