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 which transport for what?

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CptMetal
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PostSubject: which transport for what?    Sat Jun 03 2017, 10:54

Both our transports seem to have its purpose now so I wanted to talk about that.

First: the humble Venom. The go to choice last edition.
With the changes to the Splinter Cannon, it feels most comfortable 18 inches away. The both protective fields hopefully help keep it alive.
So what to put in it?
My take would be on a close combat unit or true born with a lot of Blaster. They share the same Range.
Other ideas? What are you planning fellow Archons?

Next the Raider:
The most iconic vehicle of the true kin.
I think it feels the safest 36 inches away. So maybe put Trueborn with Lances inside.
But in that case, just take a Ravager right? So maybe the old school gun boat tactic? I'm not sure on this one guys. The Lance or the Disintegration seems fun
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Faitherun
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PostSubject: Re: which transport for what?    Sat Jun 03 2017, 12:27

Had a crazy thought last night while drifting off to sleep....

Raider with 6 trueborn. 2 Cannons, 4 blasters. Archon, and 3 Slyths. No idea on the points cost, or if it'd be effective but thought I'd share my half conscious thoughts
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: which transport for what?    Sat Jun 03 2017, 12:37

I like the idea Smile

Hm. Why not 5 true born without the lances because you'll be moving and instead more Sslyth or additional Medusae / Lheamean?
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The Strange Dark One
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PostSubject: Re: which transport for what?    Sat Jun 03 2017, 13:12

My takeaways:

Venoms:
- Venoms synergize most with 18" shooting, Preferably Trueborn.
- Can transport smaller sized squads like 5 Wracks or Incubi and support additional firepower.
- Too little damage from afar. Cannot be used as heavy Splinter Platform anymore.

Raiders
- Heavy duty transporter. Can transport multiple units over the course if its life.
- No dedicated gunboats. Too expensive for Kabalites, but maybe 2 x Trueborn will work.
- Additional long range fire supporter, but too expensive to let it camp in the back field.
- One of the few units that has access to Disintegrator Cannons. Take them!
- Can take differen units: Mix and match!

Reasoning:

I think the most crucial aspect about our transports is the shift in points cost. Kabalites are cheaper, as are Wyches. Our transports are significantly more expensive, but also much more durable.
To give some perspective: 10 Kabalites with a Lance cost about as much as a Venom.

Classic 10 Warrior gunboats will not return because Splinter Racks are gone and Raiders are too expensive for what they add in firepower. If you want to go for Lance Trueborn in a Raider, you are far better off with a Ravager.

I think we need to get rid of our "no footslogging under any circumstances mentality". A 5 man Warrior squad is only 35 points, similar to Mandrakes from last edition. Until now Kabalites were just a tax to get more ObjSec Venoms. This time is over.
It is just not efficient to give every Kabalite its own transport.

I see Trueborn in Venoms making a return. The Blasters have great synergy with the 18" SC Rapid Fire range and Venoms are much more survivable on top of that.


Because Raiders are more durable I see them transporting multiple units during the course of its life on the board. Raiders are too expensive to throw away or let a unit camp inside of it for the whole time. They are our best transporter and we need to make use of that as much as possible.

I can see Raiders transporting a 10 man Wych/Incubi unit to the front and picking up some Kabalites in the backfield after that. Or see them being used as a temporary shelter for other shooty units around. Raiders are too expensive to hand them out like candy to all units.

However, when it comes to Gunboats  I can see one "alpha Raider" being on the field that has lots of heavy shooting units inside.
Something like 2 x Blasterborn. Or 1 x Blasterborn with 1 Blarchon and 4 Medusae.

Edit: Added that Raiders can take multiple units

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Last edited by The Strange Dark One on Sat Jun 03 2017, 14:46; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: which transport for what?    Sat Jun 03 2017, 14:16

I think maybe it would be better to split the Blaster born so you got t two Raider with one squad of Blaster born and 5 witches or Sslyth or something like that.

But nice and good analysis!

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The Red King
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PostSubject: Re: which transport for what?    Sat Jun 03 2017, 14:44

What about raiders with blasterborn and minimum wyches to defend the boat when it gets close. Tarpit things before retreating the wyches (can you reembark when you fall back) and then unload blasters into them.

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The Strange Dark One
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PostSubject: Re: which transport for what?    Sat Jun 03 2017, 15:07

That is actually an excellent idea and opens a lot of utility for further lists.

But 2 x 5 man squads in a Raider seems like the to-go choice in many situations. There are many interesting combinations, especially when it comes to mixing close combat and ranged units. This can be used to soften up targets from afar and then finish them with close combat. Or retreating from close combat and finishing a unit with ranged fire.

I would probably try to mix units that have a similar threat covering, like Incubi and Blasterborn.
Warriors and Wracks (with Ossefactors/Hexrifles or Shredders and Liquifiers) could also work.
Or maybe even Shredderborn and Wyches?

I guess there is some interesting exploring to do.

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Demantiae
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PostSubject: Re: which transport for what?    Sat Jun 03 2017, 15:27

Venoms are definitely the goto choice for your crack teams of specialised troops. Blasterborn, Incubi, Archon and Court or even Scourge or a small squad of Hellions of you cheese it (until that gets FAQ'd out of existence!). With such a small capacity (and every squad now coming in sizes of 5 or more) you'll have to focus them hard to get much out of them.

Raiders are way more flexible now. Two units of 5 or one solid 10 man gunboat unit can work. You can use them to just ferry troops from the back lines onto objectives but there's a limit to how effective this can be in a game likely to only last 6 turns. I like the idea of having two small complimentary squads - Shredderborn with a Wyche squad or Blasterborn + Incubi. Having acces to good shooting and good melee in the same package will be a great advantage of the DE.

Extending the mix and match theory forward I think that Archons who diversify their units and spread out their threat now will be rewarded. I'm wondering if sticking a dissie cannon on a lance ravager will pay off more than specialising them as one or the other weapon? Putting your Blasterborn with a unit of Wyches in a Raider maybe safer (and more versatile) than putting them with Incubi. You can stick your Incubi with Warriors instead. Force your opponent to target one good unit and one crappy one rather than giving them an obvious target to shoot. I think this edition will reward you for sticking to the concept of Mixed Arms.

I've yet to cost it out but I don't think I'm ready to abandon the "everything flies" motiff yet. But my kabal is designed for theme rather than competition so I don't mind if it's a bit pricey.

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kingjubes
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PostSubject: Re: which transport for what?    Sat Jun 03 2017, 16:13

Any reason why I couldn't run a raider with 5 mandrakes and 5 wracks? 5 mandrakes and 5 incubi?
Mandrakes seem like really solid glass cannons inside the protection of a raider.
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The Red King
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PostSubject: Re: which transport for what?    Sat Jun 03 2017, 17:35

I feel like mandrakes new infiltrate is better than spending a transport on them.

Besides. If you advance all boats to one flank while simultaneously deploying 2 or more mandrakes you can really overload your opponents target priority.

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4thDimensionWizard
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PostSubject: Re: which transport for what?    Wed Jun 07 2017, 05:52

You could stack a lot of blasters in raiders if you doubled down on the trueborn squads, with 2 5-man squads for each raider.

This is assuming trueborn still get access to more weapons and such. I haven't actually seen any leaked profile for trueborn yet.

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CurstAlchemist
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PostSubject: Re: which transport for what?    Wed Jun 07 2017, 06:50

It hasn't changed, "up to 4 trueborn may replace their splinter rifles with shredder or blaster."
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PostSubject: Re: which transport for what?    Wed Jun 07 2017, 13:40

Throwing two Blasterborn unit in one Raider is asking for it to get blown up turn 1. Better to spread them across two Raiders, get more blaster coverage of the board. I think mixing impact units (like Blasterborn) with tax or flak units (Warriors/Wyches/Wracks) is the best way to go. One unit with impact, one screening unit who can also take the hits if the vehicle blows and you lose models (you choose where to place all wounds if the vehicle blows up around them). Options I could go with are a Warrior squad with extra blaster to lend more weight to their fire, Wracks with Ossefactor to work in a similar range bracket, have similar AP and give you the possibility of some mortal wounds, or a Wyche squad if you intend to push the transport right up into your opponents lines so that the Wyches can charge and tie something up (perhaps an anti-tank unit that might hurt the Raider they came in on).

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The Red King
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PostSubject: Re: which transport for what?    Wed Jun 07 2017, 13:47

My current lisr is looking at 4 raiders with 5 man incubi, blasterborn, wyches and warriors spread through out.

In regards to the discussion of whether incubi can share transports I'm obviously inclined to believe so. The wave serpent has the same wording send I highly doubt Phoenix lords can't ride with other infantry.

I honestly believe wracks are better(?) Than wyches but I have 5 lovely sisters of slaughter and by golly I'm going to put them on the table.

Also my list contains 5 vehicles but comes out over 200 points cheaper than the same list in 7th. This is mostly down to talking many many now cheap upgrades I may have disregarded in the last edition. Such as blast pistols on hekatrix or agoniser on sybarites.

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4thDimensionWizard
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PostSubject: Re: which transport for what?    Wed Jun 07 2017, 16:57

Demantiae wrote:
Throwing two Blasterborn unit in one Raider is asking for it to get blown up turn 1.

Right, I sort of figured that it was obvious that I'd be using deep strike delivery if I were going to stack a raider like that. Since we choose when and where it arrives now, it could be a nice alpha strike unit that is safe if we don't go first.

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closecraig
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PostSubject: Re: which transport for what?    Wed Jun 07 2017, 16:59

4thDimensionWizard wrote:
Demantiae wrote:
Throwing two Blasterborn unit in one Raider is asking for it to get blown up turn 1.

Right, I sort of figured that it was obvious that I'd be using deep strike delivery if I were going to stack a raider like that. Since we choose when and where it arrives now, it could be a nice alpha strike unit that is safe if we don't go first.

Unfortunately the raider can't deep strike anymore. Sad
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PostSubject: Re: which transport for what?    Wed Jun 07 2017, 17:21

closecraig wrote:
4thDimensionWizard wrote:
Demantiae wrote:
Throwing two Blasterborn unit in one Raider is asking for it to get blown up turn 1.

Right, I sort of figured that it was obvious that I'd be using deep strike delivery if I were going to stack a raider like that. Since we choose when and where it arrives now, it could be a nice alpha strike unit that is safe if we don't go first.

Unfortunately the raider can't deep strike anymore. Sad

Really? I thought things with the fly keyword could deep strike. So DE have basically no alternate deployment options with the loss of the webway portal? Not very thematic for "lightning fast raiders from the webway".

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PostSubject: Re: which transport for what?    Wed Jun 07 2017, 18:19

Only units that specify that they can reserve deploy may do so and that means, of our army list, Scourges and Mandrakes.
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PostSubject: Re: which transport for what?    Wed Jun 07 2017, 21:08

CurstAlchemist wrote:
Only units that specify that they can reserve deploy may do so and that means, of our army list, Scourges and Mandrakes.

and hellions?
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PostSubject: Re: which transport for what?    Wed Jun 07 2017, 21:49

The raider is surprisingly survivable. Played my first game of 8th today and they didn't begin blowing up til turn 3.

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PostSubject: Re: which transport for what?    Wed Jun 07 2017, 23:36

wormfromhell wrote:
and hellions?

Nope, Hellions only have Power from Pain, Combat Drugs and Hit and run as abilities. None of which give you the ability to place them in reserve.
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PostSubject: Re: which transport for what?    Thu Jun 08 2017, 11:24

Hopefully DE will get something like the 5th webway portal that's placed on the table and units can spill out of it. As it stands the 7th WP doesn't work as a piece of wargear.

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Dark Elf Dave
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PostSubject: Re: which transport for what?    Thu Jun 08 2017, 12:29

I am not sure I agree with the notion that Raiders are now too expensive to give out to all units...a 10 man unit of Kabalites riding a Raider is pretty much the same points cost as in 7th with the added bonus that the Raider is now more survivable. We have lost splinter racks so I would imagine that is more the reason you are less inclined to take them for Kabalites.

In the past I would have considered 4 Incubi with an Archon in a Venom. Now due to the fact you must pay for the minimum squad size I wont do that. I am not paying 18 points for a Incubi that I wont field.

I think the Venom has changed...I doubt I will use it to transport a HQ from now on. I think I will go for a Haemonculous with 9 Wracks with crazy toughness armed with L.Guns in a Raider. I might decide to go with an Archon with two Medusae on a Venom as well though!

I really need to make my mind up! haha
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: which transport for what?    Mon Jun 12 2017, 12:40

I think Venoms will be my go-to transport for most units - mostly because we don't have much that benefits from the longer range of the Raider.

Hence, I think I'll only use the Raider when I want the 10 capacity or when I want to put a Dark Lance unit in it.

In terms of the former, I am wondering about the merits of putting 2 5-man warrior squads in a Raider. It would be less of a target than with 2 trueborn squads, and would allow you to get out one unit as an expendable screen or to sit on an objective (without wasting valuable trueborn).

Any thoughts?
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Dark Elf Dave
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PostSubject: Re: which transport for what?    Mon Jun 12 2017, 13:06

I like the idea of dropping one unit of Kabalites off to hold an objective and keeping a unit of Wyches in order to position for a counter attack.
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