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 DE Abusing the Rules

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Barrywise
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PostSubject: DE Abusing the Rules   Wed May 31 2017, 15:15

Howdy y'all, to help move past the grief and denial that always runs rampant on the unboxing of a new codex, lets make the most of it and see what we can abuse to our advantage.

To start off with the new core rules say:

"If a model has more than one melee weapon and can make several close combat attacks, it can split its attacks between these weapons however you wish - declare how you will divide the attacks before any dice are rolled."

I would like to point out that Lelith Hesperax has 4 attacks and 3 weapons. since we are able to use both weapons (^see rule above) and each weapon grants bonus attacks when used, aren't we able to then dish out a total of 7 attacks? 4 being AP -4, and 3 being standard attacks? or do we think RAW that the extra attacks are just an added automatically without having to delegate an attack to the weapon? so possibly 5 attacks at AP-4? (Plus whatever bonus from drugs)
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: DE Abusing the Rules   Wed May 31 2017, 15:22

It looks like you can get 7 attacks in total. 4 base, +1 for 2 penetrating blades and +2 for her hair. But those extra attacks must be using the specific weapon as it says with them/this weapon. So 5 attacks with the penetrating blades and 2 with her hair.

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Skulnbonz
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PostSubject: Re: DE Abusing the Rules   Wed May 31 2017, 15:38

I am more excited about being able to pick the drugs for each unit... just no duplicates until all are used

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Hellstrom
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PostSubject: Re: DE Abusing the Rules   Wed May 31 2017, 15:39

Nooo. You get 4. From your weapons, you get to chose which you use for those 4.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: DE Abusing the Rules   Wed May 31 2017, 15:43

@Hellstrom wrote:
Nooo.  You get 4.  From your weapons, you get to chose which you use for those 4.

Care to explain why you're ignoring the abilities of the weapons that you're equipped with? We don't have much to shout about so I think we should at least use what we've got!

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Hellstrom
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PostSubject: Re: DE Abusing the Rules   Wed May 31 2017, 16:02

Page 183.  It's in the rules dude Smile

*edit*

Sorry, wasn't reading Lelith's rules properly. As long as you use both of her weapons (hair and blade), then you, you will get 7 attacks total.
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Barrywise
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PostSubject: Re: DE Abusing the Rules   Wed May 31 2017, 16:08

Another thing that people might've skipped over:

"3. Allocate Wound: If an attack successfully wounds the target, the player commanding the target unit allocates the wound to any model in the unit (the chosen model does not have to be within range or visible to the attacking unit). If a model in the target has already lost any wounds, the damage must be allocated to that model"

Its a small thing but this totally means that we can save our sergeants and special characters in the unit until the very end.

Edit: In CC, the same rules apply.
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WildCandy
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PostSubject: Re: DE Abusing the Rules   Sat Jun 24 2017, 14:23

Does our -1 modifiers and Cwe conceal stop normal weapons hitting us in overwatch: need 6 to hit, all sixes count as 5, thus no hits (except with flamer weapons)?
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Barrywise
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PostSubject: Re: DE Abusing the Rules   Sat Jun 24 2017, 17:07

Oh wow, yeah I didn't think about that. I guess it would, so as you mentioned in a different thread, Mandrakes are all but invulnerable to overwatch, supposedly only auto hits like flamers would work against them.

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The Red King
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PostSubject: Re: DE Abusing the Rules   Sat Jun 24 2017, 17:23

Overwatch hits on a 6 ignoring all modifiers. Most vehicles hitting on 6's in CC can't hit mandrakes though.

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WildCandy
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PostSubject: Re: DE Abusing the Rules   Sat Jun 24 2017, 18:15

English is not my first language so I read it that you are required to roll a six to hit irrespective of Models Bs or models modifiers. "overwatch is resolved like normal shooting attack ... and uses all the normal rules except that a 6 is always required for successful hit roll, irrespective of the firing model's ballistic skill or modifiers." To me it does not say that modifiers are ignored.
In comparison bs 3 with rerolls is shooting -1 to hit unit.He can not reroll '3's as they hit. How is this different?
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Barrywise
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PostSubject: Re: DE Abusing the Rules   Sat Jun 24 2017, 20:45

There's a rule somewhere that a 1 is always a miss and a 6 is always a hit. We had a similar discussion about Drazhar giving +1 to hit on WS 2+ Incubi

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Bibitybopitybacon
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PostSubject: Re: DE Abusing the Rules   Sat Jun 24 2017, 22:24

@Barrywise wrote:
There's a rule somewhere that a 1 is always a miss and a 6 is always a hit. We had a similar discussion about Drazhar giving +1 to hit on WS 2+ Incubi
I know 1 is always a miss, but is 6 always a hit? Can't find that rule.
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Barrywise
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PostSubject: Re: DE Abusing the Rules   Sun Jun 25 2017, 02:14

@Bibitybopitybacon wrote:
@Barrywise wrote:
There's a rule somewhere that a 1 is always a miss and a 6 is always a hit. We had a similar discussion about Drazhar giving +1 to hit on WS 2+ Incubi
I know 1 is always a miss, but is 6 always a hit? Can't find that rule.

Core rules: Charge Phase, section 3: Overwatch:

"Overwatch is resolved like a normal shooting attack (albeit one resolved in the enemy's Charge phase) and uses all the normal rules except that a 6 is always required for a successful hit roll, irrespective of the firing model's Ballistic Skill or any modifiers."

It seems like they're suggesting that +1 to hits don't work for overwatch. But I'm not sure about -1's
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TheBaconPope
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PostSubject: Re: DE Abusing the Rules   Sun Jun 25 2017, 03:14

Quote :
"Overwatch is resolved like a normal shooting attack (albeit one resolved in the enemy's Charge phase) and uses all the normal rules except that a 6 is always required for a successful hit roll, irrespective of the firing model's Ballistic Skill or any modifiers."

The term "always" implies it's a fixed value. Furthermore, the term "any modifiers" does not isolate negative or positive modifiers, so it can only be assumed to be both.

Unfortunately, I think the rules are pretty clear cut here. Unless we have a rule that specifically states the modifier applies to Overwatch, we're arguing something that will never be allowed by a casual player, much less a veteran competitive one or a TO.

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Barrywise
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PostSubject: Re: DE Abusing the Rules   Sun Jun 25 2017, 04:40

And to further clarify the situation, as I had to pull out ye old dictionary on this one

Irrespective is defined as "not taking (something) into account; regardless of."

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Arani
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PostSubject: Re: DE Abusing the Rules   Sun Jun 25 2017, 06:55

Ugh..

I fought 3 Tau armies today, and these dudes were reaching deep in the bag of RAW cheese.  I'd really love for us to find a few things..

One thing of note that you can do, to get around leadership...

The Chariot Of Tortured Souls rule on the Tantalus is -army- wide.  Not just Drukhari or <Kabal>.  So if you have any low leadership stuff in your army.. throw the highest leadership model you can in a Tantalus, make them your Warlord, and -everyone- in your army uses their leadership.  Provided they aren't in cover.  It's not all that awesome.. but if you want to be a RAW dog, there's a tool for the toolbox.

But on the level.. I'd really love to see some more cheese.  These Tau players today we're unbelievable.  Because of the way the Stealth drone and Ghost keel rules were written, people said there was a -6 to hit them outside of 12" (utter nonsense in my opinion, as it clearly isn't meant it be that way).

Also I got to have some fun with 3 Tau commanders, each granting the twin-linked ability to every model within like.. 6" of them or something.  (It's a once a game ability, but with three of them you can go slap happy apparently)

Also... For further cheese

The "For The Greater Good" rule just specified 'army wide" for supporting fire.  So even though this dude had Tau allied with Chaos (guess Slaanesh fancied herself some Faptau? The list literally had Lucius in it..) a whole mess of fire warriors were able to overwatch for a squad of cultists. Incredibly lame, but some of the dudes I play with here are WAAC idiots.  /Rant

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Arani
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PostSubject: Re: DE Abusing the Rules   Sun Jun 25 2017, 07:06

Also.. a little more cheese (might not be worth the points though).  

Scourges are Drukhari infantry, and thus you can throw 3 squads of 5 in a Tantalus (12 heatlances perhaps).  Because heat Lance's are assault weapons with 9" melta range (that you technically can't get with deep striking now due to the 'more than 9 inches' statement), you could boost the Tantalus up 32" for Melta range and still shoot at only a -1 to hit.

It's pretty dumb, but hey.. if you throw a Haemy in with them, the Tantalus is t8 for even more survivability.  I'll keep looking to see what else I can dig up.

Also.. just saw that Hellions can be thrown into a Tantalus too, because why not I guess?

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Arani
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PostSubject: Re: DE Abusing the Rules   Sun Jun 25 2017, 07:30

Also... The one final thing I can think of that you can do to blatantly break the game.. is model for pure advantage. You always measure to a Raider's hull, not the base, and thus.. could be a giant troll and suspend it 6-7" in the air to make it impossible to charge, or go full crazy and put it 24" up. But.. that's like.. going with the nuclear option. Plus I doubt most tournament's would let that slide.

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krayd
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PostSubject: Re: DE Abusing the Rules   Sun Jun 25 2017, 20:54

@Arani wrote:


It's pretty dumb, but hey.. if you throw a Haemy in with them, the Tantalus is t8 for even more survivability.  I'll keep looking to see what else I can dig up.

Keep in mind that the haemy's aura effect doesn't work while he's inside the transport, he has to step outside of it before he can buff the tantalus.
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: DE Abusing the Rules   Mon Jun 26 2017, 13:24

Even though infantry can advance and shoot assault weapons, I didn't think passengers could.
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Arani
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PostSubject: Re: DE Abusing the Rules   Mon Jun 26 2017, 13:50

If you're playing rules as written, the passengers should be able to shoot assault weapons even after the vehicle advances. Reason I say this is because there's a clause in the open-topped rule that says that..

1.) Passengers can shoot from this vehicle in the shooting phase.

2.) Any modifiers or restrictions that apply to the model, also apply to the passengers.

The second part in particular makes me think that if the vehicle advances, you can still have the passengers shoot assault weapons after advancing, but with the normal -1 to hit. The same could also be said of passengers equipped with heavy weapons trying to shoot after the vehicle moves normally.

Even if it is legal, it's still not very effective. Perhaps one of the best combos might be 15 scourge dumping out 45 shots after zooming across half the table.

Actually hell, you could also get away with 16 medusae (good luck buying that many) shooting 64 shots. This might actually be better than the scourge idea, because at least you get some good AP, and can measure that puny 8" range from the Tantalus' gigantic hull.

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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: DE Abusing the Rules   Mon Jun 26 2017, 15:26

Actually those medusae are quite a good idea, just hope that the tantalus does not die and you do not need to put any models on the board Razz
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Arani
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PostSubject: Re: DE Abusing the Rules   Mon Jun 26 2017, 15:55

You could field a legal list using a vanguard detachment with 2 Archons (with cheapest wargear options) and 14 medusae along with a Tantalus for a juicy 858pts.  Or.. you could give both the Archons blasters for some extra fire-power.  (Even with the penalty for advancing, the Archons would still be hitting on 3's)

Giving you a grand 56 shots of S4 ap -2, 12 S8 ap -3 and 2 S8 ap -4.. all after moving an absurd 32" across the table.


Once again.. probably not all that feasible due to the price of Medusae models.. and that in a 2000pt list you'd have one model carrying half your points. (Sure it's durable, but that's a bit of a gamble). But assuming everything worked right, it could prove to be a fairly devastating alpha strike.


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