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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Thu Jun 01 2017, 06:30

I am likely to get a couple of games in over the next few days - Dark Kin and Harlies respectively

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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Thu Jun 01 2017, 07:18

Great. Share your experience please.
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Thu Jun 01 2017, 07:26

Excited for Harlies too.

I am hard at work comparing tis-and-tat with my friend playing CHSM. We calculated that 1850 game is now 2500 roughly. This is huge... Our transports has gotten 100% more expensive, but games went up 40% in allowance, while most infantry staying more or less the same. It hurts venom spam with blaster warriors, but we got split fire now. What points are you guys playing?
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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Thu Jun 01 2017, 09:07

All the comparisons so far have netted this for me...

Harlequins Cegorachs Revenge - 1500 became 1855
Black Templars double land raider - 1999 became 2137
Tau double surge list - 1750 became 2100

I am still working on doing some transitions but basically....

7th ed - - - 8th ed
1000 - - - 1350
1250 - - - 1500
1500 - - - 1850
1750 - - - 2100
1850 - - - 2250
2000 - - - 2500

that's the common range I end up in at least - some lists have had outliers - I had a magnus list go from 1750 down to less than 1500!

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Thu Jun 01 2017, 09:28

@CptMetal wrote:
Does anybody of you sell his army now?

Not DE, but I do have a pile of 'nids up for sale if you're interested.
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Thu Jun 01 2017, 09:47

No thanks.
I'm in a state of my life where I just never have enough time and I plan on playing only armies of which I like the aesthetics.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Thu Jun 01 2017, 10:34

@CptMetal wrote:
No thanks.
I'm in a state of my life where I just never have enough time and I plan on playing only armies of which I like the aesthetics.

No worries. Smile
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Thu Jun 01 2017, 10:45

I have like 15k nids ....... The Shredder, i'd sell them to you Wink

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Thu Jun 01 2017, 10:49

@amishprn86 wrote:
I have like 15k nids ....... The Shredder, i'd sell them to you Wink

I'm not sure I'd even have room for them. Razz

Sounds like a hell of a collection though.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Thu Jun 01 2017, 10:54

Back in 5th when Is tarted them (2010) when the new book.models came out i got the norma 2-3 starter boxes (20-30 H and T gants with some Carnifexs and warriors). with 5th there was so much Rhinos/razorback I got 9 Hive Guard.

Then i focused on Genestealers b.c i like them alot, ended up with like 90 of them and 10 broodlords. AFC i had to get Trygons and Primes (Primes where so godly).

The Tervigons came out and T-fex... AFC had to get 2 of each... then 1 more Tervigon b.c they where good... that meant i needed more gants -.-

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Thu Jun 01 2017, 11:09

No Flyrants?

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Thu Jun 01 2017, 11:19

@amishprn86 wrote:
Back in 5th when Is tarted them (2010) when the new book.models came out i got the norma 2-3 starter boxes (20-30 H and T gants with some Carnifexs and warriors). with 5th there was so much Rhinos/razorback I got 9 Hive Guard.

Then i focused on Genestealers b.c i like them alot, ended up with like 90 of them and 10 broodlords. AFC i had to get Trygons and Primes (Primes where so godly).

The Tervigons came out and T-fex... AFC had to get 2 of each... then 1 more Tervigon b.c they where good... that meant i needed more gants -.-

Wow, that's an impressive collection. Do you have any pictures of your army? I always love seeing huge hordes of nids. Very Happy


Out of interest, do you have any thoughts on 'nids in 8th?


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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Thu Jun 01 2017, 11:33

No current pic, but I have one from a 5k? or a 6k? game (maybe more idr). Me and a friend played (the spore pod is the old style i made myself before the new ones came out, the Zoanthrope unit in it is kinda hidden and 3 Biovorers in there somewhere too)

My collection is put away but i was going to get it back out again soon due to 8th, i will try to get a full pic up in a week or so.

Missing is: 2 Crones, barbed hierodule, MANY H/T gants and Genestealers (not painted), some more Gargoyles (not painted), Malenthrope, 3 Venomthropes, 6 Zoanthropes, 2 T-fexs. more biovores and spores (my 3k new stuff like the new Pods, Neurothrope, Exocrines, new Broodlords, etc)




This game only lasted 2 turns before me and my friend said "this is taking to long to play lets call it at the end of turn 2"

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Thu Jun 01 2017, 11:43

@amishprn86 wrote:
No current pic, but I have one from a 5k? or a 6k? game (maybe more idr). Me and a friend played (the spore pod is the old style i made myself before the new ones came out, the Zoanthrope unit in it is kinda hidden and 3 Biovorers in there somewhere too)

My collection is put away but i was going to get it back out again soon due to 8th, i will try to get a full pic up in a week or so.

Missing is: 2 Crones, barbed hierodule, MANY H/T gants and Genestealers (not painted), some more Gargoyles (not painted), Malenthrope, 3 Venomthropes, 6 Zoanthropes, 2 T-fexs. more biovores and spores (my 3k new stuff like the new Pods, Neurothrope, Exocrines, new Broodlords, etc)



Wow, that's an impressive number of models. I don't think I'd want to see that on the other side of the table from me. Razz

Thanks for sharing that. Smile

@amishprn86 wrote:
This game only lasted 2 turns before me and my friend said "this is taking to long to play lets call it at the end of turn 2"

Reminds me of the last time I tried playing Infantry Guard.

"You wanna go make a sandwich or something while I do my movement phase?"

I'm hoping the lack of templates in 8th and the fact that casualties don't have to be taken from the front will speed things up a bit, as I won't have to be as careful with spacing units or with the position of sergeants and special weapons.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Thu Jun 01 2017, 11:46

Our local always had a house rule for hoards, if you are going to run them do it in the movement phase, so we are already used to "advancements" in the movement phase. It helps for that many models.

There is suppose to be 100 H/T gants there i think i have 200? of them, 20of them are H gants into devilgants (T gants with Devourers; they are 4pt models with 8pt guns, 18" range 3 shot S4) they are good in pods.

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BizarreShowbiz
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Thu Jun 01 2017, 11:55

MFW I get hyped up reading the DE index and get in The Dark City

I dont get most of you people.
You complain about HQs when all of them have cool bubble buffs for the army that open cool combos and possibilities. Succubi seem specially good rerolling 1s. That paired with pfp means all units around her will hit all their attacks.

Power from pain is objectively better. Yeah, fnp its down from 6+ to 5+ but now we can actually roll it while in 7th everything negated it and now it can be rolled even against mortal wounds. And on turn 3 onwards most of out cc units hit on a 2+! I dont thing you realise how big that is.

Now we can pick drugs effects by hand. That is huge. We can give hellions more attacks, reavers more toughness and have small cheap 5 man wytch units in venoms to tie things up preventing fall backs and get the rest of the bonuses so we can pick the best ones again.

Plenty of our units are flat out improved. Yes, we cant sit back at 36" firing away with venoms, but youll have to agree with me that wasnt very cool fluffwise. I for one glad I can explore close combat lists with dark eldar with dark lance fire support for the first time in 3 editions.

Honestly, I think you should give it a try, think outside of the box and test things out before jumping to silly conclusions.

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Thu Jun 01 2017, 12:06

1) 2 things about HQ's,
A) We lost about 1/2 our HQ's when we got Purged and our HQ's cant get Skyboards, Bikes etc.. like ALL other armies can.
B) Coven helps Coven, Kabal helps Kabal, etc.. many of use likes to mix and max. The way the bubbles work it just makes it feel not the same. A Succubus used to be a prime HQ to go with Grots now they are not. Yes the game is different, but many feel like due to bubbles) you want to stack all the bubbles and force multipliers as well as you can, mix and matching makes that harder.

2) I agree PfP is better, i like it much more now

3) Drugs are better too

4) We didnt improve we got balanced, all books got balanced, but some of our iconic thigns changed, nerfed or role swap, something is iconic for a reason, for me Reavers are destroyed, idk if they live longer now, they are not reavers anymore, Venoms were known to be cheap, weak survival gunners, changes to these is enough to put many players off. Its that many players Styles are gone now.

Over all the game is so different its hard to say where the power levels are.

NOTE: Remember these are temp rules we are getting Codex's later, so dont be to upset if we dont play to well, or "Your style" doesnt play well. A codex might change this.

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Hellstrom
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Thu Jun 01 2017, 12:18

The problem with that is, our codex will likely be at the very least 12 months away, more likely 2 years.
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Thu Jun 01 2017, 12:21

@Hellstrom wrote:
The problem with that is, our codex will likely be at the very least 12 months away, more likely 2 years.

Im thinking they will release codex's in patches of 3+ every 2-3 months, i dont think it will be like the days of old for the 1st year.

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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Thu Jun 01 2017, 12:31

quick question about army construction in 8th ed

faction keywords - some units don't have <kabal>, <coven> or <wyches cult> like scourges. Can they be in any of those armies? (they seem to be merc.'s that will fight for anyone etc.)


anyone know?

Anyone notice hellions have hit and run and reavers don't?!?!? Some decisions are just strange....
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Thu Jun 01 2017, 12:40

Reavers have found themself in a new role, so yeah, times are strange.
To me it seems like Reavers will be Semi-Range unit and Elite Hunters. Like Catching Tau Suits and Characters. Not really for moaning down alot of dudes.
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Thu Jun 01 2017, 12:43

@Azdrubael wrote:
I guess it will be age of darklight. All those whacky strange weapons like heatlance, haywires etc looks really not optimal.

Scourges with 4x Blasters looks way to go. Guaranteed dark light shot that punch thtough cover and armor and getting at least 3+ in cover.

Trueborn with Dark Lances in Venoms looks way to go.

Melee from Raiders is very strange and i cant wrap my  head how to set up charge. Helions and a bit of Reavers seems way better, and they will utilise cover much better.

All on all i think we must make Darklight Spam from as many sources as possible and not fo melee too much. Alpha-strike.

I totally disagree. Melee looks fine, Mandrakes look like a great source of mortal wound via shooting and heat lances/grav talons on reavers look like the best way of assassinating characters.
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Thu Jun 01 2017, 12:44

@BizarreShowbiz wrote:
You complain about HQs when all of them have cool bubble buffs for the army that open cool combos and possibilities.

First off, you and I seem to have very different ideas about what counts as a 'cool bubble buff'.

- I don't consider 'use my Ld' as a "cool bubble buff".
- I don't consider 'crappy units nearby get to reroll 1s to hit' to be a "cool bubble buff".
- +1T is . . . okay, I guess. Though I still wouldn't describe it as "cool". It's at least functional, but I don't see it as cool or interesting.

As for the idea that these somehow open "cool combos and possibilities", I just have to laugh.

- What "cool combos and possibilities" are opened by an Archon sharing his Ld with surrounding troops?
- What "cool combos and possibilities" are opened by a Succubus giving wyches rerolls to hit? You've either got a bunch of wyches or a bunch of bloodbrides.
- What "cool combos and possibilities" are opened by Drazhar buffing Incubi and nothing else? Oh, hold on, my psychic powers are activating. I'm seeing . . . Drazhar and some Incibi.

As for Haemonculi, you're kidding, right? In 7th, I could put them with a unit of Warriors or Incubi or Wyches and buff them. I could even mix and match - using a Coven Haemonculus to get the best of both PfP tables. *That* opened some interesting combinations.

Now, a Haemonculus can only ever buff Coven units. And it's not even a fun or interesting buff.

@BizarreShowbiz wrote:
Succubi seem specially good rerolling 1s. That paired with pfp means all units around her will hit all their attacks.

The issue was never hitting. The issue was (and still is) that their strength is pathetic and they have nothing to mitigate it. You can get a lot of hits, but lack the strength and AP to inflict any meaningful damage. This buff does nothing to change that.

@BizarreShowbiz wrote:

Power from pain is objectively better.


Possibly, but not to any meaningful degree.

@BizarreShowbiz wrote:
Yeah, fnp its down from 6+ to 5+ but now we can actually roll it while in 7th everything negated it and now it can be rolled even against mortal wounds.

Sure. But the save is now so pitiful as to be virtually meaningless. At best, I'd say it evens out.

@BizarreShowbiz wrote:
And on turn 3 onwards most of out cc units hit on a 2+! I dont thing you realise how big that is.

First off, I feel like mentioning that the turn 2 bonus is literally just giving us what we got in 7th as standard.

That aside, I'd be more upbeat about that bonus if our combat hadn't been hit in several other areas:
- Our HQs lost any benefit they got from having high WS.
- We lost our initiative and got nothing to replace it.
- Archons have had their melee weapons de-fanged even more.
- Our fragile characters are far easier to kill in melee, as they can't hide in units and only the Archon has a bodyguard.
- Most importantly, our transports are now no better for Assaulting out of than closed-top Rhinos. That is a huge blow to our speed and mobility.

+1 to hit from PfP is nowhere near enough to undo all this. What's more, it's the same problem as with wyches - hitting wasn't really an issue for us. The problem was that our units were insanely fragile (that hasn't changed) and that our damage tended to be poor (that hasn't changed either).

@BizarreShowbiz wrote:
Now we can pick drugs effects by hand. That is huge. We can give hellions more attacks, reavers more toughness and have small cheap 5 man wytch units in venoms to tie things up preventing fall backs and get the rest of the bonuses so we can pick the best ones again.

I'm not seeing the appeal of what you suggest. Picking drug results is nice, but you seem to be advocating that we take a bunch of crap units to eat up the bad drug results so that our better units can have the good results. That just sounds like a massive waste of points for very little gain.

@BizarreShowbiz wrote:

Plenty of our units are flat out improved. Yes, we cant sit back at 36" firing away with venoms, but youll have to agree with me that wasnt very cool fluffwise.

Why? We weren't exactly known for playing fair. Razz

What's more, it's not just that Venoms have lost firepower - it's that we're also being charged 50% more for the privilege.

@BizarreShowbiz wrote:
I for one glad I can explore close combat lists with dark eldar with dark lance fire support for the first time in 3 editions.

Well, Dark Lances are certainly better so I'll give you that.

What puzzles me is why on earth you'd want to use any of our melee units. To me they seem objectively worse than shooting.

@BizarreShowbiz wrote:

Honestly, I think you should give it a try, think outside of the box and test things out before jumping to silly conclusions.

I always find it odd when people tell me I shouldn't jump to conclusions, whilst they themselves have jumped to conclusions and presented them as objective fact. scratch

If you want to tell me not to jump to conclusions, fine. But you can't then present your own conclusions based on no more information or playtesting than I used.


That aside, I've just got no interest in playing the new DE. Even if I'm wrong regarding the power of the units above, they've still lost virtually everything that made them appeal to me in the first place (models being the sole exception). I could probably make a functional army, but I'd have no investment in it and would get no enjoyment out of playing it - regardless of its power level.


@amishprn86 wrote:
NOTE: Remember these are temp rules we are getting Codex's later, so dont be to upset if we dont play to well, or "Your style" doesnt play well. A codex might change this.

That's true, but they're the only rules we have at the moment and (given that they're being released as proper books and not just PDFs or such), they're probably expected to last for quite a while.

If a new DE codex comes out, then I'll happy reconsider my opinion. Until then though, I think I'll be sticking with Necrons and IG.
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Thu Jun 01 2017, 12:47

@BizarreShowbiz wrote:
MFW I get hyped up reading the DE index and get in The Dark City

I dont get most of you people.
You complain about HQs when all of them have cool bubble buffs for the army that open cool combos and possibilities. Succubi seem specially good rerolling 1s. That paired with pfp means all units around her will hit all their attacks.

Power from pain is objectively better. Yeah, fnp its down from 6+ to 5+ but now we can actually roll it while in 7th everything negated it and now it can be rolled even against mortal wounds. And on turn 3 onwards most of out cc units hit on a 2+! I dont thing you realise how big that is.

Now we can pick drugs effects by hand. That is huge. We can give hellions more attacks, reavers more toughness and have small cheap 5 man wytch units in venoms to tie things up preventing fall backs and get the rest of the bonuses so we can pick the best ones again.

Plenty of our units are flat out improved. Yes, we cant sit back at 36" firing away with venoms, but youll have to agree with me that wasnt very cool fluffwise. I for one glad I can explore close combat lists with dark eldar with dark lance fire support for the first time in 3 editions.

Honestly, I think you should give it a try, think outside of the box and test things out before jumping to silly conclusions.

Well-said, this place is full of hysterics.
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Thu Jun 01 2017, 12:48

@drdoom222222 wrote:
quick question about army construction in 8th ed

faction keywords - some units don't have <kabal>, <coven> or <wyches cult> like scourges. Can they be in any of those armies? (they seem to be merc.'s that will fight for anyone etc.)


anyone know?

Anyone notice hellions have hit and run and reavers don't?!?!? Some decisions are just strange....

If a unit doesnt have <Kabalite/Wych> etc.. then they do not benefit from those "bubble abilities". They are still Drukhari keyword tho.

Reavers and Hellions are different roles now, Reavers are no longer hit and run shock unit, they are fast moving shooting unit or fast moving tie up unit, Hellions are now damage CC units with the ability to leave combats that dont favor them.

Edit: With that said, im glad they dont share the same roll, but i wish Reavers went back to HoM/Hot and Run or 5th ed Drive Byes, or like Screamers in AOS.

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