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CptMetal
Trueborn
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Wed May 31 2017, 18:06

Yeah...actually I had that idea last edition. To build a foot slogging army consisting of Death Korp Models: A paradise world, ravaged by nurgle and now they are living in sterile bunkers and fight with flamers and chemo weapons. All of them wearing white like doctor coats and armed to the teeth with flamers and heavy weapons. But no vehicles (maybe a hellhound but that´s it).

I´d still do that if they weren´t so darn expensive.
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Sess
Hellion
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Wed May 31 2017, 18:37

Ynnari soul burst actually got better. They can now use it to cast psychic powers and also does not seem restricted by many things in 7th edition. Can shoot in the same turn you ran with soul burst or if you shot then charged and wiped a unit, you can charge a second unit. Ynnari psychic powers also seem pretty good, gaze of ynnead seems powerful but hard to manifest and just triggering soul burst seems really good. Have your psyker cast the power to make itself soul burst... to cast another power! Lol.

This is pretty interesting. My initial reaction is that we got nerfed but have to see how the edition plays out. Wyches definitely received some buffs, especially with the ability to hit on a 2+ in close combat! I think close combat and charging will be a lot more devastating in the new edition as you will get to go first and are more likely to deal damage with the ability to have almost any close combat squad hit on 2+. Close combat will be a lot better just due to how much easier it is to inflict wounds on the enemy with the new WS.

Incubi seem better overall, they also don't have to worry about not having grenades anymore when charging through cover. Drazhar is also pretty cheap compared to his cost before.

I think our close combat units like hellions, wyches, jetbikes, and wracks, etc. are improved solely due to the fact that agonizers are so cheap. Cost of agonizers was so much before but now we can easily just throw agonizers on any squad.

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Azdrubael
Incubi
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Wed May 31 2017, 18:38

There is no more Veil of Tears....im stunned. That was such an iconic ability for clowns.
I will miss it.

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Cerve
Wych
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Wed May 31 2017, 18:45

Iconic you say? We have lost the webway portal
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Faitherun
Kabalite Warrior
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Wed May 31 2017, 18:59

Wow. VoT was Harlies... That is atrocious that it's gone... I am shocked
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aurynn
Incubi


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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Wed May 31 2017, 19:04

@Sess wrote:
Incubi seem better overall, they also don't have to worry about not having grenades anymore when charging through cover. Drazhar is also pretty cheap compared to his cost before.

I think our close combat units like hellions, wyches, jetbikes, and wracks, etc. are improved solely due to the fact that agonizers are so cheap. Cost of agonizers was so much before but now we can easily just throw agonizers on any squad.

IDK Incubi are great IF you get them to charge. Otherwise they will be decimated. Given the cost of transports and the weigh of that "IF" and given their weaker weapons now, they seem to be pretty bad as main assault force. Maybe counterassaulters.

Agonizer is also bit worse. Can put some wounds on TEQ now though.

However I still dont get why a Dark Reaper is 5pts while Kabalite Warrior is 7... Guardian is 8 though.
Why Chosen cost 3 points more than CHSM, while getting meaningfully improved stats and Trueborn cost 4 points more for +1A which is really irrelevant and +1LD...

Especially when you just cannot hide the Trueborn in a cheap DSing transport anymore.
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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Wed May 31 2017, 19:17

Quote :
Why Chosen cost 3 points more than CHSM, while getting meaningfully improved stats and Trueborn cost 4 points more for +1A which is really irrelevant and +1LD...

Isnt that obvious? Because our current index was "designed" by following method.

1) Take 7th edition codex.
2) Remove all the things that doesnt fit into paradigm
3) Slightly tweak it.

Thats it - done. Trueborn used to have +1 atack? Sure - it was made this way in 5th when they have option for CCW. Cut in 7th. Now copied in 8th. Oh and pay points for it.

Bloodbrides used to take 3 special weapons only in 10 man squad, so they cant fit into transport with IC? Used to - get this stuff again.

Reavers used to do some things on impact - sure. Take that again. But there is no more HoW. So here is your "Mortal Wound" insert. This crap is all over indexes - where there was something interesting before - its now Mortal Wound insert.

Right now 8th edition seems to me like double 7th treatment. Only this time everybody feel it. I literally dont get it. If this is the units that will stay even when codexes got out, i dont know what interest is there to play.

What are they going to change in real codexes? Command benefits? Artifacts? Thats laughable. I really hope this will get a complete rework.


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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Wed May 31 2017, 19:25

@Azdrubael wrote:

Isnt that obvious? Because our current index was "designed" by following method.

1) Take 7th edition codex.
2) Remove all the things that doesnt fit into paradigm
3) Slightly tweak it.

Thats it - done. Trueborn used to have +1 atack? Sure - it was made this way in 5th when they have option for CCW. Cut in 7th. Now copied in 8th. Oh and pay points for it.

Bloodbrides used to take 3 special weapons only in 10 man squad, so they cant fit into transport with IC? Used to - get this stuff again.

Reavers used to do some things on impact - sure. Take that again. But there is no more HoW. So here is your "Mortal Wound" insert. This crap is all over indexes - where there was something interesting before - its now Mortal Wound insert.

Right now 8th edition seems to me like double 7th treatment. Only this time everybody feel it. I literally dont get it. If this is the units that will stay even when codexes got out, i dont know what interest is there to play.

This sums up my feelings quite well.

7th stripped us of most of our flavour, along with various special characters and virtually every interesting rule or piece of wargear. What's more, our only real claim to being a fast army was our transports and single Jetbike unit. The only place that had some fun rules and interesting wargear was the Coven book.

In 8th, we don't even have that. It seems like every last piece of fluff has been surgically removed from our army. All we have left is a load of generic weapons that do the exact same thing as every other bloody weapon in 8th, albeit usually worse.

Even if it ends up being a net increase in power, it seems we've lost everything that would make me want to play DE in the first place.
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Wed May 31 2017, 19:36

Well we all called for easier rules. I dont mind the weapons streamlining. I welcome it...

That said, I feel like we have been given a lot of tools to put hurt on the enemy, while not getting the means to use them effectively. I dont need special names for special attacks. Let mortal wounds be the currency, but FFS the dex is full of blunders. Look at banshees vs Bloodbrides. We should be the movement phase winners, deepstrikers, outflankers, the most mobile army out there. And what we have? Venoms that are not worth taking, Raiders that barely make it, unusable overcosted weapons like Heat Lances. They have given us some toughness, but to what end? Incubi that can either shine or whine. Hellions that are good only at 4+ or worse vehicle hunting. All in all, we will be able to come up with a decend build or two, but it will be 7th all over again - minmaxing as the only way.

I really like 8th ruleset. I really like what I read with CWE including the nerfs, but our dex makes me wonder if GW wants the player base to shift to less sadistic army, because kids... I feel like I cant take out my whips and drink blood of my enemies anymore coz kids might be watching...
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DrakeHarkonnen
Hellion
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Wed May 31 2017, 19:39

I was excited to see the movement stat when they announced it because it felt like they could make factions that were supposed to be fast exactly that without having to add extra rules. But now i see that craftworld eldar still just outpace us except for the razorwing because you need to move 72"?
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Wed May 31 2017, 19:49

I didnt get that either. That 72 inch move is supposed to be a bonus? Or.... joke... or... somebody said "hey, lets give DE some totally great number in movement stat..."
"But Josh,... it will be totally irrelevant. Nobody will move that far, especially with the new rules for maneuvering."
"But... but... we have to give them a big number!"
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Sess
Hellion
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Wed May 31 2017, 20:08

Hmm, I think khorne daemonkin is just gone. Dang I was hoping they would keep them somehow. Guess I will just have to resort to playing chaos marines with daemon allies like all the other chaos god plebs.
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The Red King
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Wed May 31 2017, 20:10

I'm upset we STILL didn't get vector dancer like the crimson hunter.

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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Wed May 31 2017, 20:20

Quote :
"But Josh,... it will be totally irrelevant. Nobody will move that far, especially with the new rules for maneuvering."
There is leave airspace in DTfS. Along with stupid duels, and no agility values. And no bonus turn on roll. Literally one page of rules with leave airpsace and those idiotic duels.

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Wed May 31 2017, 20:29

@DrakeHarkonnen wrote:
I was excited to see the movement stat when they announced it because it felt like they could make factions that were supposed to be fast exactly that without having to add extra rules.  But now i see that craftworld eldar still just outpace us except for the razorwing because you need to move 72"?

I think the main issue is that base movement speed isn't the whole story.

For example, in 7th, Autachs were the same speed as Archons. The difference was that they also had access to Wings, Jetbikes and Warp Jetpacks.

This sort of thing is really important, as it means your units aren't reliant on their vehicles to be fast.

The second aspect is in terms of special rules. Look how many rules Eldar got in 7th to improve their movement. Swooping Hawks could move 18" with their jump packs, Warp Spiders could move further than normal with their Jet Packs and even move in the enemy turn etc.

The truth is, we're really lacking in special rules that improve movement speed in any significant way. Compare that with Eldar - every unit can Advance and then shoot Assault weapons without penalty, their Banshees have +3" of movement whenever they Advance or Charge, Warp Spiders can move 4d6+7 etc. This sort of thing makes an army much faster and more mobile than its movement score would indicate, and it's something we largely lack.

Also, it's worth noting that there is now no difference between assaulting out of an open-topped Venom or Raider and assaulting out of a Wave Serpent or Rhino.
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Ubernoob1
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Wed May 31 2017, 21:44

@nerdelemental wrote:
@The Shredder wrote:
@nerdelemental wrote:
Count - isn't every attack made by the model 'unique' - as in it's resolved on its own? In this case, I'm reading Lelith as:
2 hair whip thingies
1 penetrating blades
*then* her normal 4 attacks using any of her melee weapons

Is that not right? 7 total attacks base?

I'm pretty sure the base attacks are supposed to me made with one of her melee weapons.

Yeah. What else would they be made with?

"If a model has more than one melee weapon and can make several close combat attacks, it can split its attacks between these weapons however you wish." Second paragraph of the choose a weapon part of the core rules that leaked.

So yes the idea being you allocate one attack to the hair and then you get 2 more and the other 3 to her daggers for a bonus one if you have both still, giving her 3 hair attacks and 4 dagger attacks. But I do believe you have to allocate at least one attack to the weapon in order to get the bonus attacks.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Wed May 31 2017, 23:03

@Ubernoob1 wrote:
@nerdelemental wrote:
@The Shredder wrote:
@nerdelemental wrote:
Count - isn't every attack made by the model 'unique' - as in it's resolved on its own? In this case, I'm reading Lelith as:
2 hair whip thingies
1 penetrating blades
*then* her normal 4 attacks using any of her melee weapons

Is that not right? 7 total attacks base?

I'm pretty sure the base attacks are supposed to me made with one of her melee weapons.

Yeah. What else would they be made with?

"If a model has more than one melee weapon and can make several close combat attacks, it can split its attacks between these weapons however you wish." Second paragraph of the choose a weapon part of the core rules that leaked.

So yes the idea being you allocate one attack to the hair and then you get 2 more and the other 3 to her daggers for a bonus one if you have both still, giving her 3 hair attacks and 4 dagger attacks. But I do believe you have to allocate at least one attack to the weapon in order to get the bonus attacks.

The hair doesn't require you to use it, you get 2 bonus attacks using the hair profile simply for having the hair. So Lelith gets 5 attacks with her blades and an extra 2 with her hair.

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Grimcrimm
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Thu Jun 01 2017, 02:45

@Massaen wrote:
Its a whole new game... I wish people would remember that...

We have the numbers this isnt a "just try it out" problem anymore. we are worse. Please stop trying to call negativity and look at the numbers we have ALL of the numbers we have how the game plays. the dark eldar are in a crap place right now with a watered down version of a watered down codex.
i just want people to read the other "INDEXES" and compare, its bad. really bad.

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mynamelegend
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Thu Jun 01 2017, 03:07

@Grimcrimm wrote:
We have the numbers this isnt a "just try it out" problem anymore. we are worse. Please stop trying to call negativity and look at the numbers we have ALL of the numbers we have how the game plays. the dark eldar are in a crap place right now with a watered down version of a watered down codex.
i just want people to read the other "INDEXES" and compare, its bad. really bad.

Shh, it's important that we follow the sacred Code of the Ostrich.

Repeat after me: "We don't have enough information to go on yet", "We'll need to see every army to be sure", "We need to see how they actually play", "We need to see how they do in tournaments", "It's really not so bad", "It's not about winning it's about having fun", "We'll be great in this next update", 80 goto 10.
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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Thu Jun 01 2017, 04:36

@Grimcrimm wrote:
@Massaen wrote:
Its a whole new game... I wish people would remember that...

We have the numbers this isnt a "just try it out" problem anymore. we are worse. Please stop trying to call negativity and look at the numbers we have ALL of the numbers we have how the game plays. the dark eldar are in a crap place right now with a watered down version of a watered down codex.
i just want people to read the other "INDEXES" and compare, its bad. really bad.

What part of what I said means "try it out"? Cause that one line says what is says.

Its a new game - stop comparing this to 7th (or 5th or 3rd) edition codex.

With the significant changes to points to every model in the game as well as fundamental changes to the way the game plays, its still to early to say if we get a pass or fail. Some of it looks bleak I agree, but I also think that big parts look very good.

The game plays differently so we need actual table time to see whats what. The fact that every community seems to think DE are huge winners this edition is an interesting contrast to the doom and gloom here - not to mention that EVERY faction specific group seems to be in melt down over the changes.

Its a different game. Its going to take time to sort the pecking order out - if there is one that's clear at all!

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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Thu Jun 01 2017, 05:30

Does anybody of you sell his army now?
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aurynn
Incubi


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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Thu Jun 01 2017, 05:37

I agree with Massaen. Without even a single game under the belt we are hardly qualified to judge.
There will also be dexes with more rules and stuff for each army.
I have seen the other dexes and EVERYONE lost A LOT. We lost some and gained some. We are nowhere near the loss of some other armies. Ofc our whole mechanic shifted. But I do not think we are the weakest dex now, nor does majority of people from other armies I talk to.

Srsly, look at CHSM... they have been given legion rules and now they are taken away after half a year. DG cannot use half of the CHSM units anymore. SM lost pods, free Rhinos and those doubled in price (and power), Daemons lost summoning. I could go on... We lost nothing as serious.

And... I refuse to by a crybaby like SM who know... all of them... how unfair some of their toys were, yet they cry over the loss of it. I take my tools of pain, whatever they are and go kill stuff. Crying in the corner is for Mon-keigh.

Lastly, if anybody has problem with DE as they are now, lucky there are Ynnari. They lost NOTHING.
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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Thu Jun 01 2017, 06:09

Quote :
Does anybody of you sell his army now?

No, but i wont be buying new stuff just for hype, now that i have seen one. I still have 4 armies imperium vs xenos, gaming table and friends who come by to play. I think il stick to 7th, or heck it, maybe even 5th codex with 7th rulebook and play a campaign. Doesnt matter if its house rules anyway.

Il try it out, but probably with non DE stuff. DE will wait and see whats in store and first battle reports here on Dark City and Skari channel.


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The Red King
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Thu Jun 01 2017, 06:15

I'll be playing a game with the leaks in Friday. We'll see how it goes.

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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Thu Jun 01 2017, 06:21

@The Red King wrote:
I'll be playing a game with the leaks in Friday.  We'll see how it goes.
May the pain be with you! :-D Eagerly awaiting your report. :-)
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