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Seshiru
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Fri Jun 02 2017, 21:11

I think the succubus might still be better than the archon

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The Strange Dark One
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Fri Jun 02 2017, 21:20

@The Shredder wrote:
@Bibitybopitybacon wrote:
@The Shredder wrote:
I'd forgotten we could share transports now.

Could be interesting in terms of putting 2 5-man units into each Raider.
2 5man squads of assault troops is better in almost every way to 1 10 man. Particularly with Incubi.

I agree, but I was thinking in terms of shooty units as well.

I might be missing something, but why would you want to get a Raider for shooting?
With Splinter Racks being gone you cannot capitalize on the Rapid Fire as much anymore.

Venoms on the other hand provide you with 12 Splinter Shots at 18" and lets you shoot Blasters too.
And with the Shock-Prow being quasi-free I see it so much more valid as a melee unit transporter.


Or maybe Trueborn with Dark Lances and a Disintegrator Raider?

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Fri Jun 02 2017, 21:28

5 troops are better yes but i wanted to "test" out how much pfp help warriors and 2 10man units honestly lasted all game b.c how survival the Raiders actually are.

In the future im going to run 5mans for sure.

Venoms are still very strong, but cant hold 5mans + Characters or 10mans.

Venoms also are -1 to-hit, i just like Dis Cannons alot (they did major work in my games).

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Fri Jun 02 2017, 22:05

@The Strange Dark One wrote:

I might be missing something, but why would you want to get a Raider for shooting?

Five possible reasons:
- It has twice the effective range of the Venom.
- It has twice the transport capacity of the Venom.
- It has a Disintegrator (not sure how effective this will be compared to other weapons or whether the Raider will be the best platform for it, just saying that you have this option).
- It has 2/3 more wounds than the Venom.
- Because you don't have enough Venom models. Wink

@The Strange Dark One wrote:

Venoms on the other hand provide you with 12 Splinter Shots at 18" and lets you shoot Blasters too.

To be fair, there's nothing stopping you from moving in close with the Raider either. Razz

But yeah, the Venom is looking better for that.

@The Strange Dark One wrote:
And with the Shock-Prow being quasi-free I see it so much more valid as a melee unit transporter.

As I said, I was looking at lists that were basically pure shooting.

That aside, wouldn't Venoms be better for melee (unless their transport capacity is too low)? I mean, the Venom now needs to get close to the enemy to get within the optimal range for its weapons. In contrast, the Raider's optimal range is 36" away. Hence, if anything, I'd have thought the melee units would be better off in the Venom.

@The Strange Dark One wrote:
Or maybe Trueborn with Dark Lances and a Disintegrator Raider?

Yeah, that could be worth considering. You could have 2 of those squads in a single Raider.

I don't know if it's a good idea, but you have the option.
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The Strange Dark One
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Fri Jun 02 2017, 22:56

@The Shredder wrote:
@The Strange Dark One wrote:

I might be missing something, but why would you want to get a Raider for shooting?

Five possible reasons:
- It has twice the effective range of the Venom.
- It has twice the transport capacity of the Venom.
- It has a Disintegrator (not sure how effective this will be compared to other weapons or whether the Raider will be the best platform for it, just saying that you have this option).
- It has 2/3 more wounds than the Venom.

Of course, but to mitigate that a Venom has having Flickerfields, is cheaper and has synergies with its Rapid Fire range. But whatever, let's playtest that rather and see what the results say.

I love the Raider as a platform, but I struggle to see which units we could put into it to make it a good shooting platform. Until now all we always got were Warriors and... Trueborn? For me the loss of Splinter Racks is a huge deal.
And yeah, the Disintegrator is a very intruiging option. It seems too versatile not to take it.


Also, am I correct that we can put Scourges into Transports too now? I was thinking that initially, we could use Raiders to transport some melee units like 10 Wyches, Wracks or perhaps Incubi and continue using them as cover for the Scourges to shoot out of.

Perhaps even with equipped Heat Lances? Or Blasters/Shredders?
Under normal circumstances those weapons have a too short range for my liking. But in a Raider they probably survive another round without losses.
Just throwing around some ideas.

@The Shredder wrote:

- Because you don't have enough Venom models. Wink

Well, not yet Razz

@The Shredder wrote:
That aside, wouldn't Venoms be better for melee (unless their transport capacity is too low)? I mean, the Venom now needs to get close to the enemy to get within the optimal range for its weapons. In contrast, the Raider's optimal range is 36" away. Hence, if anything, I'd have thought the melee units would be better off in the Venom.

Fair point.


I guess Venoms just have a special place in my heart Razz

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Hen Tai, the tentacle guy
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Fri Jun 02 2017, 23:04

Venom with trueborn with two cannons and two blasters could be fun to try out. 24 shots off at infantry and blasters at something tougher, or everything at a WK.

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Fri Jun 02 2017, 23:17

Venoms and Raiders both have there place, i'm 100% sure we will see both on the table now.

For me it comes down to "What units works best in what vehicle?"

Melee for me would want Venoms, but Trueborn AI might want it too

Dis/Dark weapons are now Ignore cover weapons also, b.c cover gives +2 to armor, we need -3/-4ap to kill cover units, or you need Melee.

There is now a harder balance for us i feel, its going to take 100's of games for us to get a good feel of that balance.

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Minks
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Sat Jun 03 2017, 02:34

Quick one all, didn't want to start a new thread to ask - do we have to pay the extra 20 points for the compulsory lance on a raider ? I believe so, but hope not. If not, will be able to fit 2 and a venom in my 1000 point wych cult list. Had my first game earlier, all infantry/bikes/boards. Blast pistols are now decent!
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Sat Jun 03 2017, 02:51

Short answer yes.

Long answer:

There are 2 game modes Match Play and Open play.

1 is Power levels (all the weapons on the sheets ARE included with these power levels)
other is Points, every item has a point cost.

Go to the back of the book and there is a list of points, everything is listen there, if it has a point cost you must pay for it.

Raiders are 95pts, DLs are 20pts. a Raider with a DL is 115pts.

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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Sat Jun 03 2017, 02:59

There are 3 types of play.

Open play, where you literally just slap plastic on the table and roll dice. This is my favorite in AoS and will likely be my favorite in 40k

Narrative play, where you use power levels. Basically open play with baby's first points.

Matched play, where you need scrap paper, a cross reference guide, and a scientific calculator to figure out what your list is. Rules are much more restrictive in the name of "balance" and "simplicity". This game mode was designed by and for whiny tryhard tournament players.

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Sat Jun 03 2017, 03:11

yeah i got the names mixed up, but no one thinks open is a real game XD

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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Sat Jun 03 2017, 03:12

I think it's a real game. Because it lets me play with all the models I wanted to play with in 7e and now can't for some arbitrary reason.

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Sat Jun 03 2017, 03:16

My english is bad i think im miss reading you..

I thought open play was No power levels and no points, im guessing that is narrative play.

Power levels and Point lvs are the 2 main games 90%+ people will play, i was trying to get at.

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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Sat Jun 03 2017, 03:20

Open play is no power levels and no points, you're correct. Narrative play is power levels.

People will probably only play with points for the same reason no one liked playing unbound and everyone played at 1850 point levels.

No one ever turned me down when I wanted to play unbound though.

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Minks
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Sat Jun 03 2017, 13:53

Thanks both, very comprehensive. Just the one raider then, may have a larger footslogging squad of wyches and see how they get on for now while learning the new game.
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Dalamar
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Sat Jun 03 2017, 18:05

Frontline is about to go live and can freely talk. they will answer questions. and explain our goodness.

find on twitch.

they will be on for a couple hours.
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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Sat Jun 03 2017, 20:24

I hope someone asks them what it's like to be in GWs back pocket.

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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Sat Jun 03 2017, 21:04

Rolling Eyes
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Barrywise
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Sat Jun 03 2017, 22:35

That gave me a solid chuckle CptMetal.

Do we know if Ynnari soul burst is still 7 inches? Cause if it was 9 that would be some hilarious deepstrike potential.

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Gobsmakked
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Sat Jun 03 2017, 22:48

@CptMetal wrote:
Rolling Eyes

Agreed. Unless meaningful discussions pick up again, this thread may have reached the end of its usefulness.
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Barrywise
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Sat Jun 03 2017, 22:52

Cap it. We'll diverge into tactics, discussion etc. The only new news will be when the edition actually drops.

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Faitherun
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Sat Jun 03 2017, 23:05

@Barrywise wrote:
That gave me a solid chuckle CptMetal.

Do we know if Ynnari soul burst is still 7 inches? Cause if it was 9 that would be some hilarious deepstrike potential.

Still 7".

TBH, I don't really see too much of a reason to run Ynnari now... I mean Soul Burst is good, but I don't see it better than Rising Crescendo or even PfP. Perhaps I could see giving up Battle Focus for it, but for us I really don't know. Especially because the way the keywords are being used, they can't have a Ynnari power being used on a DE unit unless it gives up it PfP.
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Dalamar
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Sun Jun 04 2017, 03:16

Reecius who loves his foot dar said today that he would play ynnari instead of eldar now. He thinks craftworlders are the less good of all the eldar now.
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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Sun Jun 04 2017, 03:20

@Dalamar wrote:
Reecius who loves his foot dar said today that he would play ynnari instead of eldar now.  He thinks craftworlders are the less good of all the eldar now.

Funny considering he's the one who playtested the freaking game. He's responsible for everything now, GW was just going off his recommendations. Why would he make his own faction worse than the Ynnari?

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CurstAlchemist
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Sun Jun 04 2017, 03:32

Do we know for a fact that Reece and Franky were the only people contacted for play testing and input? Also we don't know how much of what they said GW agreed with. I understand you don't like people from the West Coast and the ITC league but placing all the blame squarely on them is just looking to use them as a scapegoat.
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