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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Thu Jun 01 2017, 15:46

Let's keep it civil please and a general reminder to all over the rules of the forum. Disagreement is fine. Disrespect is not!

Count Adhemar

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nerdelemental
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Thu Jun 01 2017, 15:48

I'm thankful for that, too, Showbiz. It reflects my thoughts exactly.
In 40k EVERY SINGLE NEW EDITION makes everyone whine and cry about how they got shafted. Every single faction is complaining right now. But we have such clearly better toys than we had a week ago. The entire game likes what we do better now. My meta is so vehicle and flyer and monstrous creature heavy. Some games there are almost no infantry models on the table (no exaggeration). I cannot wait to try this out.
And I cannot wait for our faction specific book later. Hoping it gives even more flavor, artifacts, tricks. But this is playable.

The only argument I barely understand is "my model is worthless" which means "different" to me. Whenever someone says a Reaver sucks I translate to "I want it to be one way - specifically how it was last week - and now I may have to run them differently."
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Von Snabel
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Thu Jun 01 2017, 15:49

@BizarreShowbiz
Noo, join us. Lets all be sad togeather. Feel the dark blanket of doom wrap around you and cry with us ....

No but seriously, I feel like with these placeholder rules we can do some nice things. I feel like we're better than (almost to keep my back safe) the other armies in either Shooting or Fighting Phase. And with the mobility we have it looks like we can choose how to play the game. Sure we wont out gun everything or murder everything, since that'd be boring. But with almost all of our units we can adapt and deal with the different armies in different ways.

Sure Hormagaunts are fast, but if we kill them we can just focus on out gunnig their big scary dudes (and with 4+ to wound that can go quite fast). Against tau we can get up in their grill and murder them with Hellions, Reavers and Vehicles turn 2 and then capture their entire army with wyches or kabalites turn 3.

I think we're more a Jack of all trades now that just the dudes with Venoms and 12 shots. I just want my damn Soul Trap then Im happy.
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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Thu Jun 01 2017, 15:54

Showbiz, you may be right on to hit argument. But still its leds and less interesting stuff!

Where is Soul Trap? Gone. Webway - gone. Drugs on Archon - gone. It feels really recycled. Maybe it should me mentioned that those index are literally placeholders.

Not core stuff that will be expanded with fluff and stratagems. Cause its a dumb core with very little changes from 7th concept, which in itself was only dumbing down 5th.

They really should remade army from scratch.

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Hen Tai, the tentacle guy
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Thu Jun 01 2017, 16:00

Some of the missing stuff might be granted in the upcoming codex.

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Von Snabel
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Thu Jun 01 2017, 16:02

@Azdrubael wrote:
Showbiz, you may be right on to hit argument. But still its leds and less interesting stuff!

Where is Soul Trap? Gone. Webway - gone. Drugs on Archon - gone. It feels really recycled. Maybe it should me mentioned that those index are literally placeholders.

Not core stuff that will be expanded with fluff and stratagems. Cause its a dumb core with very little changes from 7th concept, which in itself was only dumbing down 5th.

They really should remade army from scratch.


I don't think any army have gotten any cool Artifact or extremly special rules other than to give a feel to a units and weaponds. And Achons never had drugs EDIT: didnt have drugs in 7thso 1/3 of your argument died right there. (Joking, still get the picture you painting.) I think they've made a good ground to build up on to make every faction neat again.

And what should they full up codexes with if not cool rules and neat Knick-knacks ? otherwise it'd be a... pamphlet.


Last edited by Von Snabel on Thu Jun 01 2017, 16:16; edited 1 time in total
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nerdelemental
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Thu Jun 01 2017, 16:09

I'm tempted to pick up the AOS General's Handbook and then one of the codexes that came later to get some better insight into what that did to change and expand upon the gameplay.
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The Red King
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Thu Jun 01 2017, 16:11

They had drugs in 6th and I took them every game.

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mynamelegend
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Thu Jun 01 2017, 16:17

Oh lord, will I have to add "No, really, everything might totally be fixed once we get our own codex" to the Code of the Ostrich?

I don't want to be negative. I'd much rather be positive. I was positive through most of 8th edition's hype-train right up until we got enough army leaks to make it clear that DE are going to be in a rough spot.

So I'll ask it plain, then. What are we supposed to be good at in the context of other armies? What playstyles are meant to be valid now? Never mind "we might get better with the codex!" quasi-admissions that there is a problem, what are we to do when 8th edition drops and all these leaked "placeholder" armies are actually in play?

I mean, even if "scourges with dark lances!" is a valid list, that's not exactly the sort of balanced and nuanced multiple-playstyles-are-valid stuff that most of these other leaked armies are looking like, is it?
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Von Snabel
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Thu Jun 01 2017, 16:32

I just have a hard time seeing what's so much worse with our entries than everyone elses. I think everyone in my group is whining about how bad their army is now. We might not have A unit that is the absolut crap that we'll field as many as we can every single game since it's just THE best unit. Maybe a variation of units might be good. Units that can deal with different senarios instead of one type of unit that does one thing better than everyone else does their thing.

Psy Phase is worse now, that's good for us. We move (a little) more than most other. And one or 2 " here and there increase alot of charge distance, both offensive and defensive. Im not all to happy about all the weaponds but hey, you loose some you win some. the Fighting Phase is dope now with 2+ top hit and almost allways 4+/5+ to wound.

Feels just like play some games and then you can be all sad that the one armylist we had that was "competent" doesn't exist anymore. Or if you're a fluffguy, then i don't really know what you on about.
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Hen Tai, the tentacle guy
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Thu Jun 01 2017, 16:40

If people only focus on how "bad" the army is, they will never play it well. If we start focusing on solutions in stead of complaining about the problems, we can perhaps be ready with a full tactical roster when the new edition finally drops. Then we can soak up the tears of our foes, and revel in their misery.

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nerdelemental
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Thu Jun 01 2017, 16:53

And, mynameislegend, looking forward to our codex is not *my* way of saying there's currently a problem. It's my way of hoping more toys show up to make it more interesting. I've been talking a lot with players of other factions that I'm close to and they're crying rivers. Grey Knight and Tau player specifically, and I thought the Grey Knights looked damn good. But he only sees what he's lost. I look at the data slates and only see what will cause me problems. I've played against him dozens of times but I don't know every nuance that he thought made his stuff amazing. And he looks at my stuff and he pops up about the AP modifiers on all of our guns and how "cheap" all of our stuff is. He says DE are the biggest pain because we're more of a horde than Nids.
Then he said our drug table is broken. Unfair, he said. That we can now *choose* a game permanent boost. Even if you roll it randomly he says you don't lose.
The Tau player can't see anything. I think he's suicidal.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Thu Jun 01 2017, 16:57

I saw a list of pros and cons for the new GK stuff and the pros were much longer than the cons so I don't think everyone is unhappy. Necrons also seem to be in a pretty decent place at the moment.

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nerdelemental
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Thu Jun 01 2017, 17:02

I'd love to see a relatively neutral party (ie, not one of us here) create a pro con list for us.
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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Thu Jun 01 2017, 17:20

I examined the leaked rules and I kinda feel them balanced. My only regret is that the haemy doesn't give bonus to regular kabalites, or somes buff to others units, like scourges. But I can live with that.

I would have loves a game mechanic like the reanimation protocol where haemy can raise nearby dead troops.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Thu Jun 01 2017, 17:24

@nerdelemental wrote:
The Tau player can't see anything. I think he's suicidal.

Besides JSJ, what did Tau lose?
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Thu Jun 01 2017, 17:36

Hey, we won that our poison now works great against wraith Knights and stuff like that!
@Bizarreshowbiz thanks for that! That's exactly how I feel!

Please don't leave me alone in this bottomless pit of self pity!

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nerdelemental
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Thu Jun 01 2017, 17:45

@The Shredder wrote:
@nerdelemental wrote:
The Tau player can't see anything. I think he's suicidal.

Besides JSJ, what did Tau lose?

Nothing! Nothing that I can see! That's what I keep saying all across our boards. Everyone thinks they personally got prison r@ped over the rules. Everyone says its bland and my stuff doesn't do anything.
I keep saying, "Dude. STFU" to my closest gaming buds.
They look at my leaked rules and get all big eyed about how good we look. Then I come here and come back down to earth.
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Thu Jun 01 2017, 18:00

@BizzareShowbiz
Thank you, sir, thank you! Seriously. I have to say that I drop here each few months whenever some news start coming in regarding us and it does, sadly, seem always like doom and gloom. So I return to my fun games where I do even win despite being "outrageously weak army" and try again some months later. We did lose some flair, but you know what? I dont care. I like my DE and and even though I might play Ynnari on some events, I won't abandon them completely. And I have a feeling that I will play Ynnari less this edition.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Thu Jun 01 2017, 18:19

Im late, but.... i played with Succubus a lot actually..... and Haemi too

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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Thu Jun 01 2017, 18:22

What if things like the WWP were stratagems and used command points... and we just haven't seen the pages from the index books leaked that cover this?

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lessthanjeff
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Thu Jun 01 2017, 18:43

I don't necessarily think we're underpowered based on what we've seen so far, but I don't find myself excited about anything in particular either. I'm not seeing especially fun or unique roles for our units to play but when I look at my chaos army, for example, I'm seeing "wow, I can move 30" with my heldrake and charge in the first turn" or "wow, look at how khorne berserkers get to fight twice in each combat phase!". With my Dark Eldar, I find myself saying "well, I guess they can move pretty far" (but honestly I was expecting more from our speed than a 2" inch difference over a rhino).

I'm still going to try them and play them because I'm sure some things will jump out more in game like I said earlier (I am optimistic about moving full speed with transports and passengers still shooting at full bs, for example). I'm just a little let down with dark eldar specifically because here I have 8 different armies and although they were my first and the ones I was most eager to play more of they're the ones I'm most underwhelmed with. I'm still super happy with 8th edition overall and I love what I see for most of my other armies but the drukhari just haven't caught my eye with anything yet.
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Leninade
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Thu Jun 01 2017, 19:12

I'm with your friend, nerdelemental. We do seem like a horde army now. We're probably in a pretty good spot, but from the looks of things I think taking any transports at all is now a non-optimal build. Swarm the field with cheap warriors that don't even have to hide their dark lances and blasters in the back anymore. Wracks look hugely improved due to the nature of their 5++/6+ now being unignorable, unfortunately by that same token grotesques look massively less survivable due to the nature of damage multipliers. There's winners and losers in every edition
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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Thu Jun 01 2017, 22:12

I can see us making a pretty good horde army now.

It just doesn't feel right tho. DE are always described as skimmer swarm in the fluff.
DE are defined by their tranaports more than any other army IMO.
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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Fri Jun 02 2017, 01:11

@BizarreShowbiz wrote:
The Archon in 7th was USELESS. The Succubi in 7th was USELESS. Haemonculi in 7th were ABSOLUTELY frak USELESS. Thats a FACT.

The hell kind of lists were you playing? I go so much mileage out of all of those.

Quote :
Now Succubi HAVE a purpose. Now Archons HAVE a purpose. Now Haemonculi HAVE a purpose, and all of them actually reflect the fluff pretty well. You want to run a Succubi with grotesques? you can still do. It might not be the best choice but neither was it in 7th and dont pretend like it was because it was straight up garbage against every meta list out there.

Um, I've tabled Daemons players doing exactly that. Do you not know how to run a Grotesquerie?

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Its not about playing fair, its about balance.

I want "it's about balance" carved in my tombstone, right next to "but they're just cosmetic!"

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Venomspam has been the only way to field dark eldar competitively for the last 3 editions and I personally am tired of it and Im glad to be able to explore other builds, something I see you having problems on doing as most of your complaints are that you cant field exacly the same as you did before and it working the same or better. Times change, meta swifts and editions pass. Get on with the times, try different stuff, experiment.

I'm going to say this again, in big bold letters, because I feel it needs to be said every time someone complains about not being able to play their dudes the way they want to play their dudes and some chump tells them they're playing wrong.

DO NOT TELL OTHER PEOPLE THEY ARE PLAYING THEIR TINY PLASTIC SPACE ELFS WRONG.

If someone enjoys playing Venom spam and suddenly they can't play Venom spam anymore, their complaint isn't just pointless screeching it's actually valid. That was an army they built and painted and played with and now the rules changed so they have to change their dudes. No one should have to change their dudes. Now in the case of Venom spam I think you still can run it, no one removed Venoms and no one removed the ability to run a bazillion of the things, it's just that's all you get now. They're worse, not broken.

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A big part of the reason I dont post nearly as often here as I used to is because ever since the Gathering Storm II book dropped and it turned out not to be a Dark Eldar supplement this forum has turned into a botomless pit of toxicity, self-pity, negativity, bad manners and out of tone responses to harmless oppinions or questions, And it honestly saddens me because it used to be such a cool place to write and read stuff about plastic toys.

We love you too.

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