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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Thu Jun 01 2017, 12:59

@Minks wrote:
@BizarreShowbiz wrote:
MFW I get hyped up reading the DE index and get in The Dark City

I dont get most of you people.
You complain about HQs when all of them have cool bubble buffs for the army that open cool combos and possibilities. Succubi seem specially good rerolling 1s. That paired with pfp means all units around her will hit all their attacks.

Power from pain is objectively better. Yeah, fnp its down from 6+ to 5+ but now we can actually roll it while in 7th everything negated it and now it can be rolled even against mortal wounds. And on turn 3 onwards most of out cc units hit on a 2+! I dont thing you realise how big that is.

Now we can pick drugs effects by hand. That is huge. We can give hellions more attacks, reavers more toughness and have small cheap 5 man wytch units in venoms to tie things up preventing fall backs and get the rest of the bonuses so we can pick the best ones again.

Plenty of our units are flat out improved. Yes, we cant sit back at 36" firing away with venoms, but youll have to agree with me that wasnt very cool fluffwise. I for one glad I can explore close combat lists with dark eldar with dark lance fire support for the first time in 3 editions.

Honestly, I think you should give it a try, think outside of the box and test things out before jumping to silly conclusions.

Well-said, this place is full of hysterics.

Feel free to share any positive views you have of the new codex.

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doriii
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Thu Jun 01 2017, 13:08

there prolly is potential in our new stuff. takes a little time to find it with playing it.
then when this edition has been played for a few months maybe a year theyll have rectified a lot and balanced stuff for the upcoming releases of new codexes
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lessthanjeff
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Thu Jun 01 2017, 13:15

I won't lie, I was one of those people who insisted on being optimistic about leaks throughout and telling people to wait and see because it'll be a whole new game. Now I find myself feeling very meh about my dark eldar (not my other armies though).

I know I still need to play them because some things just don't jump out from looking at the rules but will become very significant in game (for example, I keep thinking about our transports getting to move the full distance and have passengers shoot at full BS instead of only getting to move 6").

I just don't see anything exciting and cool and fun to try though, that's the bigger problem. I love my dark eldar, but I see things like khorne berserkers getting to attack twice and it gets me pumped up and eager to try them while nothing is jumping out like that for me with my dear dark eldar. Even our aura effects seem lackluster compared to other armies. Unless I'm mistaken, most other armies give reroll 1's to hit on everything but we seem to get reroll 1's to hit in close combat from specific sets of models. I'm not seeing the fun and exciting elements my other armies are getting which is making me sad.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Thu Jun 01 2017, 13:28

What lessthanjeff said. We were gutted is coolness, thats my biggest problem with DE.

Tryanids have
Trygons (DSing unit that can let 1 other unit DS that wouldnt normally be able to)
Tervigons are good now
Swarmloard is amazing (can give other uits 2x movements)
Etc..

Harlequins got, HQ's now, Shadowseer can give a unit X2 movement now as well

Ynarri still can do its thing.

The more i'm reading other armies the more DE seem to have "coolness" we are a very basic army with basic buffs (Drugs are stat changes not coolness) we lost WWP's cool HQ's and we dont get any "tricks" even tho WE SHOULD HAVE THE MOST TRICKS.

We dont have Powers either so we cant get tricks through them....

Overall not saying DE is bad, im just saying they are plain compare to other armies i can play.

Edit: On a possitive note, i am for the 1st time wanting to play with hellions, and i'm happy about amny of the unit buffs, also i'm already thinking of a Coven list.

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Von Snabel
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Thu Jun 01 2017, 13:39

Im quite exited about using Reavers in units of like 6 with Grav talons and Balsters/Heatlance to execute important Characters. Just jump in, fire some Heat Lances or Blaster and if they survive charge the crap out of em. Distract other units with raiders, Vemons and Helions charging to keep my now really pricey Reavers as a less than optimal target. A bit bummed that my Characters can't fit in Vehicles with troops, but then again why would I want my Archon to travel with filthy, lowly Kabalites ?
I think using some shocktroops to take aggro and actualy murder people instead of the 36" pussyfooting around and taking objectives. That's the way I feel like DE should be played (Fluffwise, not ruleswise)

I do really like the Incui (even now), but what's the deal with Drazahar ? Add 1 to hit rolls ? I mean sure, useful turn 2. After that they hit on 2+ anyway ? I guess to mitigate other bonuses from the lesser races but really. Didnt they look at the pfp table before they made that rule ? Or am I just really slow and not seeing why this makes sence ?

PS: Feels like Slaanesh Daemons is more like a army of Reavers in 8th than we ever were. Must say I'm not that experienced with them in other editions but they look like they can wreck some arse


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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Thu Jun 01 2017, 13:41

Character can go in transport

Transports are only limited by model count unless it says other wise, you can put in a 5-9man unit and a character, or 5man unit with 5 character lol.

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Von Snabel
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Thu Jun 01 2017, 13:45

@amishprn86 wrote:
Character can go in transport

Transports are only limited by model count unless it says other wise, you can put in a 5-9man unit and a character, or 5man unit with 5 character lol.

Sorry for being unclear. But as most bonuses in terms of weapons come 10 and min is 5 a Archon wont fit in a venom with anything other than Court and why would i saccrafice good weaponds for a crappy aura. So the "wont fit" should be a "shouldnt fit". My bad
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Thu Jun 01 2017, 13:46

@amishprn86 wrote:
What lessthanjeff said. We were gutted is coolness, thats my biggest problem with DE.

Tryanids have
Trygons (DSing unit that can let 1 other unit DS that wouldnt normally be able to)
Tervigons are good now
Swarmloard is amazing (can give other uits 2x movements)
Etc..

Harlequins got, HQ's now, Shadowseer can give a unit X2 movement now as well

Ynarri still can do its thing.

The more i'm reading other armies the more DE seem to have "coolness" we are a very basic army with basic buffs (Drugs are stat changes not coolness) we lost WWP's cool HQ's and we dont get any "tricks" even tho WE SHOULD HAVE THE MOST TRICKS.

We dont have Powers either so we cant get tricks through them....

Overall not saying DE is bad, im just saying they are plain compare to other armies i can play.

Edit: On a possitive note, i am for the 1st time wanting to play with hellions, and im happy about amny of the unit buffs.

Exactly this.

All my Necron HQs and vehicles now regenerate wounds. RPs now allow models to get back up again (with full wounds!), instead of just being a save, and if a model fails it can keep trying each turn so long as its unit isn't completely dead. The staff of light now works in melee as well as at range. Whilst not necessarily optimal, most of their special characters at least look playable now -including my favourites - Trazyn and the Stormlord. The Destroyer Lord (which I specially converted a model for last edition) also looks pretty good - being durable, fast, decent in combat, handing out buffs to nearby destroyers and having access to good weapons along with a cheap item that lets it regenerate d3 wounds each turn.

Guardsmen now pass orders automatically and the various changes mean that infantry armies might actually work again. There are no blasts to worry about, people can't snipe their special/heavy weapons or sergeants and they can now move and fire heavy weapons. Platoon Commanders can now issue all the orders. Veterans look awsome. Scions can instantly appear in plasma or melta range of an enemy unit. Lots of useful abilities on HQs.

I'm just not seeing anything like that with DE.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Thu Jun 01 2017, 13:48

B.c a unit of Trueborn in a Raider is still a solid option and an Archon can go with them.

@TheShredder  Yep thats why i cant wait for Corsairs...... sadly if Corsairs have more fun rules i'll not play DE until i see the Codex Sad that means maybe no DE for 3 editions.

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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Thu Jun 01 2017, 13:51

Is Drazhar +1 to hit or +1 to WS? Because if its +1 to hit, Incubi always hit on 1+ after turn 3.

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Von Snabel
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Thu Jun 01 2017, 13:59

@Azdrubael wrote:
Is Drazhar +1 to hit or +1 to WS? Because if its +1 to hit, Incubi always hit on 1+ after turn 3.

It's add one to the hit roll. But in the rules a 1 is allways a miss, no matter the bonuses. (page 181 1. To Hit)So it's still just 2+ really. The only way I see this rule come into play is if the unit is subject of some Power or blid equivalent. But then again, why would anyone debuff something that ignores it. I hope they change it to reroll 1s, that'd be amazing.
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Hen Tai, the tentacle guy
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Thu Jun 01 2017, 14:04

people bringing flyers against us will have a huge problem. Hellions, reavers, razorwings, beastmen, talos, cronos, and all of our skimmers can charge and shoot at them without penalty. Kabalites in transports will also gain fly and can pepper away as well. This can be fun!

Edit. Forgot about scourges

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Thu Jun 01 2017, 14:06

@amishprn86 wrote:
@TheShredder  Yep thats why i cant wait for Corsairs...... sadly if Corsairs have more fun rules i'll not play DE until i see the Codex Sad that means maybe no DE for 3 editions.

Yeah, I'm holding out hope for Corsairs as well, though I'm also dreading what will happen to the Corsair Prince. I find it hard to believe that they'll let him keep his wealth of options, and I'll be really sad if Survivor of Endless Darkness is lost.

Other than that, the main things I'm curious about are:
- What will happen to their core abilities? GW seem to have eliminated all other 'move after shooting' abilities, so I'm wondering what will happen to theirs.
- What will happen to Balestrikes? If they get the normal penalty for firing Heavy weapons then it seems like they'll be a pretty pointless unit.

@Von Snabel wrote:
Sorry for being unclear. But as most bonuses in terms of weapons come 10 and min is 5 a Archon wont fit in a venom with anything other than Court and why would i saccrafice good weaponds for a crappy aura. So the "wont fit" should be a "shouldnt fit". My bad

Huh, I hadn't noticed that the minimum size of an Incubi unit had been increased to 5.

Aren't Archons supposed to use Venoms to ride to battle with their elite units? If so, I guess those units had a meeting and decided that the Archons were holding them back. Razz
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Von Snabel
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Thu Jun 01 2017, 14:16

@Hen Tai, the tentacle guy
The Talos and Cronos can't charge Flyers, or is that something that's included in the Monster Keyword ?

But the one thing Im missing is the Soul Trap. I want my Archon with S40 that can make Land Raiders into Supersonic Flyers Sad
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Sigmaril
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Thu Jun 01 2017, 14:19

@The Shredder wrote:

RPs now allow models to get back up again (with full wounds!), instead of just being a save, and if a model fails it can keep trying each turn so long as its unit isn't completely dead.
You need to set reinforcement points aside for this, though.
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Thu Jun 01 2017, 14:20

Just put my first list together, and is looking quite foreward to try it out Smile

2000 point
Brigade Detachment (+9 CP)  

HQ (3-5)
Archon [54]
Succubus (+1 Ld) [72]
Succubus (+1 Ld) [72]

Troops (6-12)
5 Wyches (+1 S) (45), Phantasm Grenade Launcher (3), Power Sword (4), Shardnet and Impaler (5) [57]
5 Wyches (+1 S) (45), Phantasm Grenade Launcher (3), Power Sword (4), Shardnet and Impaler (5) [57]
5 Wyches (+1 T) (45), Phantasm Grenade Launcher (3), Agonizer (4), Hydra Gauntlets (4) [56]
5 Wyches (+1 A) (45), Phantasm Grenade Launcher (3), Agonizer (4), Hydra Gauntlets (4) [56]
5 Wyches (+1 A) (45), Phantasm Grenade Launcher (3), Agonizer (4), Hydra Gauntlets (4) [56]
5 Wyches (+1 WS) (45), Phantasm Grenade Launcher (3), Agonizer (4), Hydra Gauntlets (4) [56]

Elites (3-Cool
5 Kabalite Trueborn (55), Phantasm Grenade Launcher (3), 2 x Dark lance (40) [98]
5 Kabalite Trueborn (55), Phantasm Grenade Launcher (3), 2 x Dark lance (40) [98]
5 Kabalite Trueborn (55), Phantasm Grenade Launcher (3), 2 x Dark lance (40) [98]

Fast Attack (3-5)
5 Hellions (+2 M) (85), Phantasm Grenade Launcher (3) [88]
5 Hellions (+2 M) (85), Phantasm Grenade Launcher (3) [88]
5 Hellions (+1 T) (85), Phantasm Grenade Launcher (3) [88]

Heavy Support (3-5)
Ravager (95), 3 x Dark lance (60), Shock Prow (1) [156]
Ravager (95), 3 x Dark lance (60), Shock Prow (1) [156]
Ravager (95), 3 x Dark lance (60), Shock Prow (1) [156]

Transports
Raider (Wych Cult) (95), Dark lance (20), Shock Prow (1) [116]
Raider (Wych Cult) (95), Dark lance (20), Shock Prow (1) [116]
Raider (Wych Cult) (95), Dark lance (20), Shock Prow (1) [116]
Venom (Wych Cult) (65), 2 x Splinter Cannon (30) [95]


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Hen Tai, the tentacle guy
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Thu Jun 01 2017, 14:20

Ah. Once more I remembered wrongly. I should really stop writing things from memory. Very Happy

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Thu Jun 01 2017, 14:25

@Sigmaril wrote:
You need to set reinforcement points aside for this, though.

No, because you're reviving existing models - not bringing new ones into play.
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Sigmaril
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Thu Jun 01 2017, 14:31

@The Shredder wrote:
@Sigmaril wrote:
You need to set reinforcement points aside for this, though.

No, because you're reviving existing models - not bringing new ones into play.

Wouldn't that count as "replacing"?

Page 214 in the rulebook
Sometimes a psychic power or ability will allow you to add units to your army, or replace units that have been destroyed. In a matched play game, you must set aside points in order to use these units.
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Von Snabel
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Thu Jun 01 2017, 14:32

Hmm, didn't really think about it but Phantasm Launcher seems quite good. I just looked at the effect and felt like meeh. But it still wounds on 6 on vehicles as on IG and for 3 points it's seems allright. Might kill one additonal every turn they're used so neat. I guess the Shock Prowl is there just since it's dirt cheap and for those "What The Heck"-moments ?
Do you got a game plan or is it just the units you'd like to try and see what happends ? Smile
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Thu Jun 01 2017, 14:38

@Sigmaril wrote:

Wouldn't that count as "replacing"?

I wouldn't have thought so. The whole point is that it's the same model that's coming back - not a replacement.

I'd have thought this would refer to the old rules like Without Number that allowed you to bring on a replacement unit of gaunts each time you lost one of your units. I think IG had a similar ability at one point.

@Sigmaril wrote:
Page 214 in the rulebook
Sometimes a psychic power or ability will allow you to add units to your army, or replace units that have been destroyed. In a matched play game, you must set aside points in order to use these units.

The use if 'Units' is important here, I think. Reanimation Protocols is for individual models, not units. Indeed, since it stops working if the entire unit is destroyed, it is physically incapable of bringing back a whole unit.

I'll ask around, but I really don't think this rule is supposed to apply to Reanimation Protocols.
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Minks
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Thu Jun 01 2017, 14:39

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@Minks wrote:
@BizarreShowbiz wrote:
MFW I get hyped up reading the DE index and get in The Dark City

I dont get most of you people.
You complain about HQs when all of them have cool bubble buffs for the army that open cool combos and possibilities. Succubi seem specially good rerolling 1s. That paired with pfp means all units around her will hit all their attacks.

Power from pain is objectively better. Yeah, fnp its down from 6+ to 5+ but now we can actually roll it while in 7th everything negated it and now it can be rolled even against mortal wounds. And on turn 3 onwards most of out cc units hit on a 2+! I dont thing you realise how big that is.

Now we can pick drugs effects by hand. That is huge. We can give hellions more attacks, reavers more toughness and have small cheap 5 man wytch units in venoms to tie things up preventing fall backs and get the rest of the bonuses so we can pick the best ones again.

Plenty of our units are flat out improved. Yes, we cant sit back at 36" firing away with venoms, but youll have to agree with me that wasnt very cool fluffwise. I for one glad I can explore close combat lists with dark eldar with dark lance fire support for the first time in 3 editions.

Honestly, I think you should give it a try, think outside of the box and test things out before jumping to silly conclusions.

Well-said, this place is full of hysterics.

Feel free to share any positive views you have of the new codex.

There's a few that jump out. Power from patience and drugs seem better.

Mandrakes look lethal - mortal wounds are important and they can put them out pretty simply and apply pressure through their deployment.

Larger units seem viable, spamming msu doesn't have to be the go to for Kabalites

Reavers with heat lances and talons look like one of the best character assassination units in the game. Kill the characters - stop the buffs.

Hellions look good!

Wyches and the bomber look improved over the last edition - decent at the least.

Footslogging actually seems viable for us, first time since 3rd ed.

I'm actually looking forward to trying out different units for the first time in years.
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Sigmaril
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Thu Jun 01 2017, 14:42

@Von Snabel wrote:
Hmm, didn't really think about it but Phantasm Launcher seems quite good. I just looked at the effect and felt like meeh. But it still wounds on 6 on vehicles as on IG and for 3 points it's seems allright. Might kill one additonal every turn they're used so neat. I guess the Shock Prowl is there just since it's dirt cheap and for those "What The Heck"-moments ?
Do you got a game plan or is it just the units you'd like to try and see what happends ? Smile
PGLs are there because they're cheap and doesn't trade in for other weapons, so it's just extra shots.
Shock Prows are in because they're basically free Smile

Battle Plan is tricky since I have no idea what anyone might bring, but I sucpect we'll be seeing a lot of vehicles in the beginning, ond those need popping. 18 Lances ought to do something in that regard.
2 wych units in each raider, and a venom for the succubi. The idea is infantry hunting with assistance from the Hellions.

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BizarreShowbiz
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Thu Jun 01 2017, 15:30

*sigh* This is what I get for trying to be positive in this forum. I will be as honest as I can and answer you on the same tone you answered to my post, @TheShredder.

CHARACTERS

Lets tackle characters first, as is the easiest to cover. If you think our new characters are worse than their 7th counterparts you are out of your god dammned mind. Plain and simple. Either that or you have pulled out the fastest pink shade googles in the history of this game. The Archon in 7th was USELESS. The Succubi in 7th was USELESS. Haemonculi in 7th were ABSOLUTELY frak USELESS. Thats a FACT. And if you used one instead of a llhamaean to cover your CG slot you obviously dont give a frak about being competitive because those were at best 50 points straight up thrown in the thrash bin.

Now Succubi HAVE a purpose. Now Archons HAVE a purpose. Now Haemonculi HAVE a purpose, and all of them actually reflect the fluff pretty well. You want to run a Succubi with grotesques? you can still do. It might not be the best choice but neither was it in 7th and dont pretend like it was because it was straight up garbage against every meta list out there.

Oh, and our CGs had no benefit whatsoever for having huge WS in 7th because they couldnt be played as a single unit and the WS was measured by the unit they were in. So your point that they are somehow worse now that they hit on 2+ instead of 3+ is laughable at best. This is specially notable on the succubi that can easily access S6, while before she ran around with an apparently amazing S4. Yeah, you cant hide them inside units, the just become freakin untargeteable if they have another unit in front of them. BO HOO.

POWER FROM PAIN

You think power from pain is not relevant? From what i've read so far we the only codex that get a base save against mortal wounds. We are the only codex that get to hit on 2+ on all their regular combat units. We even frak ignore morale completely turn 4 onwards. In 7th PFP was only useful to reaver jetbikes, because the mass S6 everywhere made it completely useless in your regular T3 dudes.

Also, you repeteadly state that hitting wasnt our problem, but wounding. Excuse me? Wyches, grotesques, wracks, hellions... basically every unit except Incubi and Talos hit on 4+ before. Now they hit on 3+ base and 2+ on turn 3 onwards (or even before if you pick the +1WS drug) I refuse to beleive that you dont aknowledge the great improvement that this represents on our melee offensive capabilities. Units that you are quickly dismissing as "trash" becouse they traditionally have been so are now pretty good in close combat, specially since S3 is not as huge of a deal as it was before because A) Some special weapons and bonuses give us reroll to wound B) Now we roll on 5+ against T5, a very prevalent toughness value. Either way Im not saying wyches are da bomb, but at the very least are an utility unit that taken in MSU can pin down effectively shooty units (each unit triggers its own no escape roll) and capable of dishing some harm. Hydra gauntlets are pretty good and cheap, and you can take 2 in a 5 woman squad.

CHANGES IN PLAYSTYLE

Its not about playing fair, its about balance. Venomspam has been the only way to field dark eldar competitively for the last 3 editions and I personally am tired of it and Im glad to be able to explore other builds, something I see you having problems on doing as most of your complaints are that you cant field exacly the same as you did before and it working the same or better. Times change, meta swifts and editions pass. Get on with the times, try different stuff, experiment.

Reallly now, did you honestly think you would play exacly the way you did in 7th with a new edition and a simultaneous overhaul of all armies? becouse that would be very naive of you

Oh and you saying that venoms got a price increase like its exclusive for us is cute. Every vehicle in the game got a point increase.

SOME LAST WORDS, DONT WORRY ITS ALMOST OVER.

A big part of the reason I dont post nearly as often here as I used to is because ever since the Gathering Storm II book dropped and it turned out not to be a Dark Eldar supplement this forum has turned into a botomless pit of toxicity, self-pity, negativity, bad manners and out of tone responses to harmless oppinions or questions, And it honestly saddens me because it used to be such a cool place to write and read stuff about plastic toys.


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Amornar
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PostSubject: Re: Full rules and all Indexes   Thu Jun 01 2017, 15:40

Good points Showbiz....I will admit I feel a little like a scolded child right now but in a good way. I think we need more "tough love" around here to knock us out of our funk of "loosing stuff" and realizing that things are different, it was always going to happen, and it's not as bad as we think it is, just different, and change can be hard for us. Some more than others and I'll gladly admit to being one of the harder ones.
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