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Dark Elf Dave
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PostSubject: Re: Almost Full DE rules w/ Picks   Thu Jun 01 2017, 23:45

@Seshiru wrote:
@Barrywise wrote:
How do y'all think a kitted out Talos does in comparison to grots? 112pts for Splinter pods, twinlinked liquifier and a charge + whatever losses from morale tests

Stinger Pods! your a genius!!!

Talos + Stinger pods 88 points  ... sold!!!

My 8th ed Dark Eldar army is shaping out to be freaking awesome.

EDIT: I just can't spell anything =/

The Talos costs 88 points base.

Talos 88 points
Stinger Pod 26 points
2x Macro-Scalpel 8 points

122 points
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Almost Full DE rules w/ Picks   Thu Jun 01 2017, 23:53

@Dark Elf Dave wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:
@Dark Elf Dave wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:
@Massaen wrote:
Dark reapers are 5 points per model!

Their launchers are 31 per model though

Yes but the cost of their launchers shouldn't alter their base cost. Why are they barely half the cost of a guardian when they are objectively better?

Guardian - M 7", WS 3+, BS 3+, S 3, T 3, W 1, A 1, LD 7, Sv 5+, Ancient Doom, Battle Focus
Dark Reaper - M 6", WS 3+, BS 3+, S 3, T 3, W 1, A 1, LD 8, Sv 3+, Ancient Doom. Inescapable Accuracy

This will be because Guardians come stock with weapons that have 0 points cost...meaning their base cost reflects that they access to 0 points wargear.

Dark Reapers without the Reaper Launcher have access to nothing...so it's 5 points for an unarmed Dark Reaper.

That doesn't hold water. Regardless of what their weapons cost, the points cost shown is for a model without those weapons.

It makes perfect sense to me...if you can't see it then you can't see it.

Okay, look at it this way then. If GW decides in the future that Shuriken Catapults are waaaay too good and that they need to go up to 10 points, what is the base cost of the Guardian? Still 8 points.

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Creeping Darkness
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PostSubject: Re: Almost Full DE rules w/ Picks   Fri Jun 02 2017, 00:16

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@Dark Elf Dave wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:
@Dark Elf Dave wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:
@Massaen wrote:
Dark reapers are 5 points per model!

Their launchers are 31 per model though

Yes but the cost of their launchers shouldn't alter their base cost. Why are they barely half the cost of a guardian when they are objectively better?

Guardian - M 7", WS 3+, BS 3+, S 3, T 3, W 1, A 1, LD 7, Sv 5+, Ancient Doom, Battle Focus
Dark Reaper - M 6", WS 3+, BS 3+, S 3, T 3, W 1, A 1, LD 8, Sv 3+, Ancient Doom. Inescapable Accuracy

This will be because Guardians come stock with weapons that have 0 points cost...meaning their base cost reflects that they access to 0 points wargear.

Dark Reapers without the Reaper Launcher have access to nothing...so it's 5 points for an unarmed Dark Reaper.

That doesn't hold water. Regardless of what their weapons cost, the points cost shown is for a model without those weapons.

It makes perfect sense to me...if you can't see it then you can't see it.

Okay, look at it this way then. If GW decides in the future that Shuriken Catapults are waaaay too good and that they need to go up to 10 points, what is the base cost of the Guardian? Still 8 points.

I would imagine it has been done this way because another model (perhaps an Autarch?) has access to the dark reaper missile launcher, and needs to be paying 31 points for it. Ergo, since there is only one price for each weapon (no dynamic pricing in the 41st millenium!):

[normal dark reaper cost] = [Total value of Dark Reaper with standard weapon] - [cost of Reaper launcher]

The cost of the launcher may have other constraints if other models can access them, whereas the cost of the Dar kReaper himself is not constrained. Thus it becomes a sort of 'fudge factor' to set the actual points payed for the model to the correct value.

Although this results in a nonsensically low value for a dark reaper with no gun, it keeps the value of a reaper with a gun, and an autarch with the same gun both balanced. And since you can't take the reaper without the gun, this is what matters.
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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: Re: Almost Full DE rules w/ Picks   Fri Jun 02 2017, 00:46

Thank heavens the confusion of 7e equipment buying has been replaced with such an easy to understand and straightforward points system.

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TheBaconPope
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PostSubject: Re: Almost Full DE rules w/ Picks   Fri Jun 02 2017, 00:51

Quote :
Thank heavens the confusion of 7e equipment buying has been replaced with such an easy to understand and straightforward points system.
That got a rare chuckle out of me. Good job.

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Leninade
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PostSubject: Re: Almost Full DE rules w/ Picks   Fri Jun 02 2017, 01:04

Actually there is dynamic pricing for weapons in 8th. Go check out Tyranids and see how many weapons have the bearer in parentheses with different costs listed
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Tyelacoirii
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PostSubject: Re: Almost Full DE rules w/ Picks   Fri Jun 02 2017, 01:23

@Hellstrom wrote:
@Tyelacoirii wrote:
As I see it the 500 points of necrons could be defeated fairly easily by just taking say 60 kabalite warriors and 5 splinter cannons. Preferably 6 but it would be 510 points.

Potentially trade out 10 kabalites for five blasters.

I have no idea how you think this would work.  Walk towards them, shooting weaker guns than they have and then getting shot back with no saves?

I don't see how they have better guns.

You have longer range on the cannons and a higher movement speed so should be able to determine when you hit 24".

You have the first turn (whether they moved up a bit or not doesn't much matter unless you deploy under 30" away from each other). Only your cannons are in range. You shoot at the immortals.

15 shots, 10 hits, 5 wounds, 1.666 dead Necrons. 1/3 chance to get up, so lets assume one immortal stays dead leaving 9 left.

Their turn 9 immortals advance into 24" range. Warriors are slightly further behind as they cannot advance and shoot.
18 shots with Tesla results in 15 hits due to the -1 from advancing. 10 wounds. Down to 6.66 due to 5+ kabalite armour, down to 5.5 due to 6+++ power from pain. Lets round up to 6. Morale will on average cause you to lose one or two more. So lets say 8 dead Kabalites while the squad's Sybarite and cannon survive.

You can now advance your cannons 7" and into rapid fire range of 18. Remaining warriors are all in 24" but not in 12". This results in 47 rifle shots and 30 cannon shots. 77 shots results in 51.333 hits results in 25.666 wounds results in 8.555 dead immortals. On average dice you kill the unit and morale will on average clear the remainder if one happens to live.

The warriors not get into 24" range. 20 gauss flayer shots results in 13.333 hits. 8.888 wounds, 7.4 after the 6+ armour save, 6.1 dead Kabalites after power from pain. Again with morale this might kill another 1-2. Lets round up and say 8.

So now you have 5 cannons left and 39 rifles. Lets assume you cannot get in 12" with your rifles but can get into 18" with the cannon.
69 shots equals 46 hits, 23 wounds and 11.5 dead Necrons. Average dice would result in a further 5 dead from morale. Lets round up so 18 died and 6 get up leaving 8 Necrons.

8 Necrons now advance to rapid fire range. They can finish off either depleted squad of Kabalites or shoot an undamaged squad. 16 shots, 10.666 hits, 7.111 wounds, 5.925 after armour, 4.93 after power from pain. You lose a further kabalite for morale to bring the total to 6 (although if its turn 4 you are immune to morale losses).

You have 5 cannon and 33 rifles. Your Kabalites can now advance into rapid fire range with their rifles. 96 shots, 64 hits, 32 wounds and 16 dead Necrons easily wiping the remaining unit.

I guess you can tweak it to make things worse. Perhaps 1 immortal survives and so 3 of his squad get back up next turn - they can then kill 3 kabalites, picking off the depleted squad. Feel free to run the numbers but I don't see it changing much.
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Barrywise
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PostSubject: Re: Almost Full DE rules w/ Picks   Fri Jun 02 2017, 01:34

@Dark Elf Dave wrote:
@Seshiru wrote:


Stinger Pods! your a genius!!!

Talos + Stinger pods 88 points  ... sold!!!

My 8th ed Dark Eldar army is shaping out to be freaking awesome.

EDIT: I just can't spell anything =/

The Talos costs 88 points base.

Talos 88 points
Stinger Pod 26 points
2x Macro-Scalpel 8 points

122 points

I may have been looking at splinter pod instead of stinger pod Embarassed

and i'm going to run the math eventually, which is better, 2 Talos barebones(192pts) or one kitted out with stinger pod and TL Liquifier(144). Because it might be worth it to hit harder in one turn to cause those morale penalties.

Also of note: with a Leadership of 8, you need to lose three Talos and then roll a 6 before losing another one from Morale. Three Talos = 288pts, 2 fully kitted = 288pts

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Red Corsair
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PostSubject: Re: Almost Full DE rules w/ Picks   Fri Jun 02 2017, 03:54

@Tyelacoirii wrote:
@Hellstrom wrote:
@Tyelacoirii wrote:
As I see it the 500 points of necrons could be defeated fairly easily by just taking say 60 kabalite warriors and 5 splinter cannons. Preferably 6 but it would be 510 points.

Potentially trade out 10 kabalites for five blasters.

I have no idea how you think this would work.  Walk towards them, shooting weaker guns than they have and then getting shot back with no saves?

I don't see how they have better guns.

You have longer range on the cannons and a higher movement speed so should be able to determine when you hit 24".

You have the first turn (whether they moved up a bit or not doesn't much matter unless you deploy under 30" away from each other). Only your cannons are in range. You shoot at the immortals.

15 shots, 10 hits, 5 wounds, 1.666 dead Necrons. 1/3 chance to get up, so lets assume one immortal stays dead leaving 9 left.

Their turn 9 immortals advance into 24" range. Warriors are slightly further behind as they cannot advance and shoot.
18 shots with Tesla results in 15 hits due to the -1 from advancing. 10 wounds. Down to 6.66 due to 5+ kabalite armour, down to 5.5 due to 6+++ power from pain. Lets round up to 6. Morale will on average cause you to lose one or two more. So lets say 8 dead Kabalites while the squad's Sybarite and cannon survive.

You can now advance your cannons 7" and into rapid fire range of 18. Remaining warriors are all in 24" but not in 12". This results in 47 rifle shots and 30 cannon shots. 77 shots results in 51.333 hits results in 25.666 wounds results in 8.555 dead immortals. On average dice you kill the unit and morale will on average clear the remainder if one happens to live.

The warriors not get into 24" range. 20 gauss flayer shots results in 13.333 hits. 8.888 wounds, 7.4 after the 6+ armour save, 6.1 dead Kabalites after power from pain. Again with morale this might kill another 1-2. Lets round up and say 8.

So now you have 5 cannons left and 39 rifles. Lets assume you cannot get in 12" with your rifles but can get into 18" with the cannon.
69 shots equals 46 hits, 23 wounds and 11.5 dead Necrons. Average dice would result in a further 5 dead from morale. Lets round up so 18 died and 6 get up leaving 8 Necrons.

8 Necrons now advance to rapid fire range. They can finish off either depleted squad of Kabalites or shoot an undamaged squad. 16 shots, 10.666 hits, 7.111 wounds, 5.925 after armour, 4.93 after power from pain. You lose a further kabalite for morale to bring the total to 6 (although if its turn 4 you are immune to morale losses).

You have 5 cannon and 33 rifles. Your Kabalites can now advance into rapid fire range with their rifles. 96 shots, 64 hits, 32 wounds and 16 dead Necrons easily wiping the remaining unit.

I guess you can tweak it to make things worse. Perhaps 1 immortal survives and so 3 of his squad get back up next turn - they can then kill 3 kabalites, picking off the depleted squad. Feel free to run the numbers but I don't see it changing much.

This is so ridiculous it isn't even funny. For one thing, that was 400pts of necrons, you ignored the part where he was given 5 tries with anything he could take as well as a 100 point handicap. Beyond that, your making so many assumptions about this match, for one thing your assuming he will chase after you like a moron and wont use any terrain.

But lets humor you for a moment, it took you 6 troop slots and 60 models to combat half as many from only 2 slots and again, your forgetting that 100 point handicap.

It's not only embarrassing, but insulting how much tailoring and hypothetical engineering is happening in here.

Again, moral of the story is 5 tries with 100 extra points and limitless options failing to kill 2 basic troop units. I assure you it only gets worse as the game scales up, for every unit we have, the necrons have a better version lol.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Almost Full DE rules w/ Picks   Fri Jun 02 2017, 05:42

Ok so i've seen Necrons play now... and HOLY FING HELL

You MUST tailor your list to fight them, we even did Knights against them and it was pointless.

You need 2 damage weapons to effectively kill the Transports.

We are thinking its a typo in the rules, there is NO WAY they are this strong.

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mynamelegend
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PostSubject: Re: Almost Full DE rules w/ Picks   Fri Jun 02 2017, 05:54

I mean... If you remember the last four consecutive editions, you'd know that being obnoxiously overpowered compared to almost every codex (but only occasionally THE god-tier meta-dominators themselves) is the Necron hat.

I'm not surprised.
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PostSubject: Re: Almost Full DE rules w/ Picks   Fri Jun 02 2017, 06:00

@mynamelegend wrote:
I mean... If you remember the last four consecutive editions, you'd know that being obnoxiously overpowered compared to almost every codex (but only occasionally THE god-tier meta-dominators themselves) is the Necron hat.

I'm not surprised.

This is different tho, if you do "6 damage" to a vehicles then on a roll of 1-5 it completely ignores that damage. If do 3 damage then a roll of 1-2 it is ignore. if you do 4-6 damage there is a 50-83% chance you will do 0 damage.

On top of that it gains a wound back each turn (this might be a roll i dont remember now, i've been awake for 26hrs)

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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: Almost Full DE rules w/ Picks   Fri Jun 02 2017, 06:44

Normal guys revive on a roll, the vehicles (and I think characters) get wounds back for free.

But yes I think in slightly bigger battles it will matter less since you can go better for wiping a unit completely by focussed fire.

But yes they are insanely though and just not wiping a unit is hell. ow you killed 19 of my 20 warriors, let me just put 6 back, so you can try again. And I think that damage thing is just for the command barge? But yes necrons clearly are one of the better armies (I think orks are also doing quite ok).
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Almost Full DE rules w/ Picks   Fri Jun 02 2017, 06:47

we where doing 1k games. When a Knight can NOT kill a Ghost Ark thats a problem.

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Barrywise
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PostSubject: Re: Almost Full DE rules w/ Picks   Fri Jun 02 2017, 06:55

Sounds like Mr. Bones Wild Ride got an upgrade. What did you find effective against the crons?

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Almost Full DE rules w/ Picks   Fri Jun 02 2017, 06:58

High value and 2 damage weapons, you need to chip them away with multi units or 2 damage weapons so they fail that roll to ignore the damage.

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PostSubject: Re: Almost Full DE rules w/ Picks   Fri Jun 02 2017, 07:13

So lots of dessie cannons on ravagers/raiders to kill necrons ... Pretty much what I woulda done anyway. And then dark scythes on bombers ... Missile pods/dessie cannons on jetfighters and haywire blaster scourge, and hellions/wyches/beast masters to tie infantry up in combat. I'm not gonna say this is perfect and I'll have to play against necrons a few times to figure it out but they aren't impossible to beat
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PostSubject: Re: Almost Full DE rules w/ Picks   Fri Jun 02 2017, 15:24

@Dark Elf Dave wrote:
@Seshiru wrote:
@Barrywise wrote:
How do y'all think a kitted out Talos does in comparison to grots? 112pts for Splinter pods, twinlinked liquifier and a charge + whatever losses from morale tests

Stinger Pods! your a genius!!!

Talos + Stinger pods 88 points  ... sold!!!

My 8th ed Dark Eldar army is shaping out to be freaking awesome.

EDIT: I just can't spell anything =/

The Talos costs 88 points base.

Talos 88 points
Stinger Pod 26 points
2x Macro-Scalpel 8 points

122 points

Darn, really need the book so I can stop trying to read blury internet pictures of it.

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PostSubject: Re: Almost Full DE rules w/ Picks   Fri Jun 02 2017, 15:46

Why are we liking the Stinger Pod over twin Canons? Better at vehicular shooting on top of infantry?
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PostSubject: Re: Almost Full DE rules w/ Picks   Fri Jun 02 2017, 17:05

@amishprn86 wrote:
we where doing 1k games. When a Knight can NOT kill a Ghost Ark thats a problem.

If anyone wanted evidence that 8th edition's writers have not started communicating better than the previous edition's ones, here it is. Does anyone think that when they gave the Knight's Reaper Chainsword a Damage of 6, that guy had Quantum Shielding in mind?

My girlfriend called Quantum Shielding the stupidest rule to ever exist in 40k. I'm... not sure I can disagree, but even if I were to it's not far from it.
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PostSubject: Re: Almost Full DE rules w/ Picks   Fri Jun 02 2017, 17:34

I 100% agree that's a stupid thing... but you use titanic feet and smash the crap out of it! 12 attacks, S8, D3 damage and the barge dies super quick

Quantum shielded things need to be chipped away at - thankfully they have a low T and save

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Barrywise
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PostSubject: Re: Almost Full DE rules w/ Picks   Fri Jun 02 2017, 17:49

@nerdelemental wrote:
Why are we liking the Stinger Pod over twin Canons? Better at vehicular shooting on top of infantry?

Yeah, that was my reasoning at first with S5 wounding T6-T9 on a 5+ instead of a 6+, but the random shots and Ballistic skill of the Talos are making me re question the worth.
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PostSubject: Re: Almost Full DE rules w/ Picks   Fri Jun 02 2017, 18:17

The other player did use his feet after 1st round, but it still took 3 full turns to just get it down 8-9 wounds (sense it gets them back). shooting them with 2 damage weapons is the way to go i feel.

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Seshiru
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PostSubject: Re: Almost Full DE rules w/ Picks   Fri Jun 02 2017, 19:34

@nerdelemental wrote:
Why are we liking the Stinger Pod over twin Canons? Better at vehicular shooting on top of infantry?

I just miss read the points picture and thought they were free.
Given that they are almost as much as the two splinter cannons I no longer like them.

I'm not really loving the new Tallos, it's been the one downer about this new book so far.

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PostSubject: Re: Almost Full DE rules w/ Picks   Fri Jun 02 2017, 19:41

Splinter Cannons not being heavy is amazing.

I won my games b.c the opponents under estemated -1 to hit with Heavy weapons while moving, and sense Raiders are already -1 to hit 90% the game they were wasting the Heavy weapons.

I was able to zip around and shoot 6 splinter cannon shots like it was nothing.


A unit of Trueborn in Venom with 2 Splinter cannons each (total of 4) is i think more scary than last edition.

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