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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Almost Full DE rules w/ Picks   Thu Jun 01, 2017 3:57 pm

They are tough and got a 5++ and they can use the cleaver (?) weapon if they want to profit from their high strenght. Reducing Marine armour to 4+.
Oh and if the use the gauntlet, you cause one mortal wound EACH TIME you roll a 6 to wound IN ADDITION to the normal damage. So the attack that causes the mortal wound also wounds normally (since you rolled a 6)

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Bibitybopitybacon
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PostSubject: Re: Almost Full DE rules w/ Picks   Thu Jun 01, 2017 3:59 pm

I think there are two key ideas to remember in your 500 point necrons challenge. #1 The value of wounds inflicted on necrons decreases by 1/3 every turn (IE they get the 5+ every turn for every model lost, so a model killed turn 1 has 5 turns to come back on a 5+.) If you can't wipe a unit in 1-2 turns you will have a difficult time trading cost efficiently with them and I don't think you can do that with shooting in that points range. #2 Our units get better the longer into the game it gets. My strategy would be to simple take no shooting what so ever, take venoms with incubi in them, and wait for a turn 4 or 5 assault. You can get three venoms with 3 units of 5 incubi in them for less than 500. Best of luck
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Leninade
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PostSubject: Re: Almost Full DE rules w/ Picks   Thu Jun 01, 2017 4:14 pm

I'm not quite saying that grotesques provide nothing, just that they provide too little for their cost. Their current role certainly isn't to tank that's for damned sure
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Bad-baden-baden
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PostSubject: Re: Almost Full DE rules w/ Picks   Thu Jun 01, 2017 4:16 pm

I'm pretty sure that Grots have a 3++, justifying their wound count staying the same. Disappointed that they need to take the flesh gauntlets. I was thinking of trying to run them as a meat shield for my characters: can't target my Haemi until you get passed that 3++ T6 grot!

Alternatively, they can also be overwatch sponges. Again, T6, 3++...
Also, can anyone tell me the difference between a stinger pistol and a splinter pistol? Perhaps I'm blind, but it seems to me they have the exact same statline, except that stinger pistols cost 7 points...
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Red Corsair
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PostSubject: Re: Almost Full DE rules w/ Picks   Thu Jun 01, 2017 4:23 pm

They don't have a 3++ dude. They have a 5++ but heir FNP is only a 6+ now. Don't wast points on the Haemi since most infantry still wound them on a 5+ due to the wounding chart change people love forgetting.

As to that silly necron discussion, The guy took 2 basic infantry units and you guys are struggling to come up with an answer using ANYTHING in the book and a 100pt bonus lol. That is all we need to draw our conclusions.

I play necrons as well, the tesla carbine is the worse option btw, gauss blasters are s5 rend -2. He also could take a cryptek and then his dudes literally get back up +50% more. It's completely stupid how far ahead necron infantry is compared to ours.


Last edited by Red Corsair on Thu Jun 01, 2017 4:33 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Von Snabel
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PostSubject: Re: Almost Full DE rules w/ Picks   Thu Jun 01, 2017 4:31 pm

@Red Corsair wrote:
They don't have a 3++ dude. They have a 5++ but heir FNP is only a 6+ now. Don't wast points on the Haemi since most infantry still wound them on a 5+ due to the wounding chart change people love forgetting.

Well, I think running one or two is nice anyhow. The placement will vary depending on what you're up agains. T6 on vehicles and i grots REALLY nice agains S3 flahslight, and T5 Wracks is nice agains the standard S4. So Not really a total waste of point Imo
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PostSubject: Re: Almost Full DE rules w/ Picks   Thu Jun 01, 2017 4:34 pm

Grots actually seem pretty cheap for what they do, only downside I see is the glove wounds on a 4+ always even if you have higher strength.

unless I'm reading the rules wrong, we can move are raiders 14" and still shoot all of the warriors out of them at full BS, right?
And we raiders actually protect the warriors now pretty decently.

Reavers don't seem terrible, but I didn't care for them in 7th.
Wyches might have a purpose, we'll see.

Not sure on the talos now (which is sad) he seems like a lot of points after you pay for both splinter cannons (or other ranged weapon of your choice).

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Bad-baden-baden
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PostSubject: Re: Almost Full DE rules w/ Picks   Thu Jun 01, 2017 4:36 pm

Are you certain? The Russian leak I have is a bit blurry, but I was almost certain it was a 3++.

I agree that the bonus toughness that a haemi gives to wracks is worth it. haemonculus are pretty cheap, and they seem to be the best HQ available to us.

I think we're going to see that the way Dark eldar are viable is through Darklight spam and spamming agonizers if you're CC focused.

As an aside, I'm new, how do I quote properly?
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Red Corsair
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PostSubject: Re: Almost Full DE rules w/ Picks   Thu Jun 01, 2017 4:39 pm

@Von Snabel wrote:
@Red Corsair wrote:
They don't have a 3++ dude. They have a 5++ but heir FNP is only a 6+ now. Don't wast points on the Haemi since most infantry still wound them on a 5+ due to the wounding chart change people love forgetting.

Well, I think running one or two is nice anyhow. The placement will vary depending on what you're up agains. T6 on vehicles and i grots REALLY nice agains S3 flahslight, and T5 Wracks is nice agains the standard S4. So Not really a total waste of point Imo

Your welcome to prepare against flashlights, but as a guard player I can tell you the IG meta is going toward scions. They pack 4 specials and a plasma pistol per 10 for 128 pts and they precision DS... Yea your not gona get hit with flashlights so much against grots now that they spit fire.

Back to the necrons, I forgot to mention that the match up gets worse as the points scale up. We have zero answers to their skimmers. Poison does jack to a 11-14 w model and quantum (trololololl) shielding ruins dark lights efficiency. You want to roll high in this edition for damage, but the QS will just ignore that damage so now your back to wanting to do 1 damage per dark light weapon only now they have triple or quadruple the wounds/HP.

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Red Corsair
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PostSubject: Re: Almost Full DE rules w/ Picks   Thu Jun 01, 2017 4:42 pm

@Bad-baden-baden wrote:
Are you certain? The Russian leak I have is a bit blurry, but I was almost certain it was a 3++.

I agree that the bonus toughness that a haemi gives to wracks is worth it. haemonculus are pretty cheap, and they seem to be the best HQ available to us.

I think we're going to see that the way Dark eldar are viable is through Darklight spam and spamming agonizers if you're CC focused.

As an aside, I'm new, how do I quote properly?

5++ I have clear as day scans right in front of me.

Dark light spam and cheap kabalites is the name of the game. But that just isn't the way I want to play my serial murdering space elves so I'll continue to treat them as a painting project I love until they get better rules. Hey I only waited 12 years for the 5th ed codex, seems to be a trend, wait over a decade to get 3-4 solid gaming years in then repeat lol!
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Von Snabel
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PostSubject: Re: Almost Full DE rules w/ Picks   Thu Jun 01, 2017 4:48 pm

@Bad-baden-baden wrote:

As an aside, I'm new, how do I quote properly?

There is a green button above the posts thats says "Quote". Just press it and it'll take you to another screen where you can write your post.
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Bad-baden-baden
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PostSubject: Re: Almost Full DE rules w/ Picks   Thu Jun 01, 2017 4:52 pm

@Von Snabel wrote:
@Bad-baden-baden wrote:

As an aside, I'm new, how do I quote properly?

There is a green button above the posts thats says "Quote". Just press it and it'll take you to another screen where you can write your post.

Thanks very much, i didn't see anything on the mobile version. Switching to desktop now!
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Dark Elf Dave
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PostSubject: Re: Almost Full DE rules w/ Picks   Thu Jun 01, 2017 5:30 pm

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@Massaen wrote:
Dark reapers are 5 points per model!

Their launchers are 31 per model though

Yes but the cost of their launchers shouldn't alter their base cost. Why are they barely half the cost of a guardian when they are objectively better?

Guardian - M 7", WS 3+, BS 3+, S 3, T 3, W 1, A 1, LD 7, Sv 5+, Ancient Doom, Battle Focus
Dark Reaper - M 6", WS 3+, BS 3+, S 3, T 3, W 1, A 1, LD 8, Sv 3+, Ancient Doom. Inescapable Accuracy

This will be because Guardians come stock with weapons that have 0 points cost...meaning their base cost reflects that they access to 0 points wargear.

Dark Reapers without the Reaper Launcher have access to nothing...so it's 5 points for an unarmed Dark Reaper.

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PostSubject: Re: Almost Full DE rules w/ Picks   Thu Jun 01, 2017 5:33 pm

Glad that I put blasters on most of my scourges, cuz it looks like that's going to be pretty much all of the DE that I take with my harlequins. Everything else either seems kinda sucky, or so far from the fast, mobile glass cannon that I enjoyed playing that I don't want to run it.

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PostSubject: Re: Almost Full DE rules w/ Picks   Thu Jun 01, 2017 5:46 pm

How do y'all think a kitted out Talos does in comparison to grots? 112pts for Splinter pods, twinlinked liquifier and a charge + whatever losses from morale tests

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PostSubject: Re: Almost Full DE rules w/ Picks   Thu Jun 01, 2017 5:52 pm

Quote :
How do y'all think a kitted out Talos does in comparison to grots? 112pts for Splinter pods, twinlinked liquifier and a charge + whatever losses from morale tests

I'm loving their new leadership stat, but without a wound increase, the loss of rerolls from poison, and the ability to lose a good portion of their unit from morale, they're hardly the go-to shock troops they were before.

Both have their uses, but they're hardly the assault beasts from before.

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PostSubject: Re: Almost Full DE rules w/ Picks   Thu Jun 01, 2017 5:57 pm

Have we seen the base rules, or lack there of, that say we don't get the reroll from poison cc weapons? I haven't seen that rule yet so I'm just asking...cause I haven't seen any leaks of the core rulebook for rulings like that
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PostSubject: Re: Almost Full DE rules w/ Picks   Thu Jun 01, 2017 6:00 pm

@Archon_91 wrote:
Have we seen the base rules, or lack there of, that say we don't get the reroll from poison cc weapons? I haven't seen that rule yet so I'm just asking...cause I haven't seen any leaks of the core rulebook for rulings like that

That's because "Poison" simply doesn't exist anymore. It is a straight 4+ against everything except Vehicles.

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PostSubject: Re: Almost Full DE rules w/ Picks   Thu Jun 01, 2017 6:16 pm

Then just use that for higher toughness models and use their other weapon for everything else including vehicles as grots are strong enough to damage them on a 5+, grots will still be useful melee monsters
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PostSubject: Re: Almost Full DE rules w/ Picks   Thu Jun 01, 2017 6:51 pm

@Dark Elf Dave wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:
@Massaen wrote:
Dark reapers are 5 points per model!

Their launchers are 31 per model though

Yes but the cost of their launchers shouldn't alter their base cost. Why are they barely half the cost of a guardian when they are objectively better?

Guardian - M 7", WS 3+, BS 3+, S 3, T 3, W 1, A 1, LD 7, Sv 5+, Ancient Doom, Battle Focus
Dark Reaper - M 6", WS 3+, BS 3+, S 3, T 3, W 1, A 1, LD 8, Sv 3+, Ancient Doom. Inescapable Accuracy

This will be because Guardians come stock with weapons that have 0 points cost...meaning their base cost reflects that they access to 0 points wargear.

Dark Reapers without the Reaper Launcher have access to nothing...so it's 5 points for an unarmed Dark Reaper.

That doesn't hold water. Regardless of what their weapons cost, the points cost shown is for a model without those weapons.

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Dark Elf Dave
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PostSubject: Re: Almost Full DE rules w/ Picks   Thu Jun 01, 2017 7:14 pm

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@Dark Elf Dave wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:
@Massaen wrote:
Dark reapers are 5 points per model!

Their launchers are 31 per model though

Yes but the cost of their launchers shouldn't alter their base cost. Why are they barely half the cost of a guardian when they are objectively better?

Guardian - M 7", WS 3+, BS 3+, S 3, T 3, W 1, A 1, LD 7, Sv 5+, Ancient Doom, Battle Focus
Dark Reaper - M 6", WS 3+, BS 3+, S 3, T 3, W 1, A 1, LD 8, Sv 3+, Ancient Doom. Inescapable Accuracy

This will be because Guardians come stock with weapons that have 0 points cost...meaning their base cost reflects that they access to 0 points wargear.

Dark Reapers without the Reaper Launcher have access to nothing...so it's 5 points for an unarmed Dark Reaper.

That doesn't hold water. Regardless of what their weapons cost, the points cost shown is for a model without those weapons.

It makes perfect sense to me...if you can't see it then you can't see it.

An actual mistake that I have noticed is that a stinger pistol has the same rules as a Splinter pistol but costs 7 points against 0 points. 7 points by the way is nearly double the cost of an Agoniser so you'd expect good stats for it.
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PostSubject: Re: Almost Full DE rules w/ Picks   Thu Jun 01, 2017 7:19 pm

@Barrywise wrote:
How do y'all think a kitted out Talos does in comparison to grots? 112pts for Splinter pods, twinlinked liquifier and a charge + whatever losses from morale tests

Stinger Pods! your a genius!!!

Talos + Stinger pods 88 points  ... sold!!!

My 8th ed Dark Eldar army is shaping out to be freaking awesome.

EDIT: I just can't spell anything =/

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PostSubject: Re: Almost Full DE rules w/ Picks   Thu Jun 01, 2017 7:29 pm

@Barrywise wrote:
@Azdrubael wrote:
Raider absorbing overwatch? I think it must absorb at least one round of shooting, if opponent has any tape around.

@Barrywise wrote:
this would be in a perfect world with a lot of assumptions

*NOTE*: 20 Gauss Flayer shots on average do about 3 (2.96) wounds to a raider. 20 Tesla Carbines will do 3-4 (3.33) wounds. 10 Gauss Blaster shots do about 1.5 (2.96/2) wounds.


Also forgot that disembarking occurs in the start of the movement phase. Assuming an open field and your opponent is being smart about attack range, you are hovering just outside of the 29" threat range. 14 inch movement with an advance roll, 15-20 inches. ("blistering speed" ...) you're now, at worst, 14 inches away. your opponent has the option of moving to 12 inches and rapid fire, or moving back to 19 inches to single fire. Option 1 does just about 10 wounds to the raider. That sucks. Option 2 does about 6 (6.3) wounds. Either you're blown up, with the warriors 12" away or you're moving 10 inches closer next turn to get blown up then. Dang you're right about that. And the immortals don't care about rapid fire, they'll keep their 24 inches away from you.

edit: Forgot about falling back too. aww shiz biz. Necrons scary. Mandrakes might be the go to for that alpha strike potential then.

edit2: I don't think Grots have enough killing potential to kill the warriors fast enough.


This !!!! Almost impossible to actually get into assault with anything.
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PostSubject: Re: Almost Full DE rules w/ Picks   Thu Jun 01, 2017 7:31 pm

@Tyelacoirii wrote:
As I see it the 500 points of necrons could be defeated fairly easily by just taking say 60 kabalite warriors and 5 splinter cannons. Preferably 6 but it would be 510 points.

Potentially trade out 10 kabalites for five blasters.

I have no idea how you think this would work. Walk towards them, shooting weaker guns than they have and then getting shot back with no saves?
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PostSubject: Re: Almost Full DE rules w/ Picks   Thu Jun 01, 2017 7:37 pm

@Red Corsair wrote:

As to that silly necron discussion, The guy took 2 basic infantry units and you guys are struggling to come up with an answer using ANYTHING in the book and a 100pt bonus lol. That is all we need to draw our conclusions. .

Indeed.
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