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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: DE Rule Leaks   Thu Jun 01 2017, 09:59

Aeldari is enough to build a force I think.
But the Raider is for Drukhari only. EXCEPT for those aforementioned characters.
So we can legally build a Aeldari list that consists of primarily True kin and some Craftworld dudes like weapon batteries or wraith guard or scatter bikes.

Make those guys look like true kin and you're good to go!

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The Red King
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PostSubject: Re: DE Rule Leaks   Thu Jun 01 2017, 10:41

So I'm not wrong in thinking that a trueborn squad can still take a ride in a venom if they go ynnari. Since they don't lose their other keywords.

It makes sense. I just want to make sure.

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: DE Rule Leaks   Thu Jun 01 2017, 10:54

alexwellace wrote:
I'm more than a little disappointed with the amount of 2+ to hits everywhere. A Succubus hits on a 2+ as equally as a Haemunculi does and the Haemonculi is better at it! With more attacks and a straight up better weapon (Electro-corrosive whip is exactly the agoniser with dmg 2), 5+ invul at all times and T5. <- That's just not right.

Wait, so an Electrocorrosive whip is now basically an Agoniser and Huskblade combined? Shocked


That aside, I don't think WS has transferred well between editions. Especially since armies like ours had a lot of characters with really high WS stats that have basically been lost entirely with no replacement (and that's in addition to us losing our other high stat - initiative).

Anyway, in terms of BS, I can see how it was transferred - they just used the model's to-hit score, with anything better than 2+ becoming a straight 2+. However, I'm completely baffled as to how WS was calculated. I mean, my Necron Destroyer Lord only had WS4 last edition, yet he now hits things on 3s in combat. Not that I'm complaining, but where did that number even come from?

Or maybe they just took the model's WS and then used the BS chart?


But yeah, the trouble with the current modifiers is that they basically erase the top half of the WS chart. So a model that was WS5 is now just as good as a model that was WS10. What's more, models with high WS now get no defensive bonus from it - since it makes no difference to the to-hit roll of their opponent.

This seems like an oversimplification to me - especially given the wide variety of models 40k needs to represent. Would it really have complicated the game to stick with the old method of WS vs WS? Likewise, I'd have thought giving models a BS stat would have allowed them to better bring across the models who excelled at shooting. e.g. a -1 modifier would make a BS5 need 3+ to hit, whilst a BS6 model would still hit on 2s.



Something else I've noticed though - it seems like only an Archon can gain any benefit from bodyguards. If you have a Succubus, a Haemonculus or one of our special characters then they can be sniped to hell or murdered in combat, and none of our units can intervene. Neutral
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: DE Rule Leaks   Thu Jun 01 2017, 11:07

The WS change was one that I flagged before anything was even leaked/previewed as being a bad idea and nothing I've seen since has changed my opinion on that. The really annoying thing is that they could have kept WS the same as 7e but just used the same chart as they use for rolling To Wound!

WS 2 x opponent = 2+
WS greater then opponent = 3+
Same = 4+
Lower = 5+
Half or less = 6+

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: DE Rule Leaks   Thu Jun 01 2017, 11:15

Count Adhemar wrote:
The WS change was one that I flagged before anything was even leaked/previewed as being a bad idea and nothing I've seen since has changed my opinion on that. The really annoying thing is that they could have kept WS the same as 7e but just used the same chart as they use for rolling To Wound!

WS 2 x opponent = 2+
WS greater then opponent = 3+
Same = 4+
Lower = 5+
Half or less = 6+

That's actually a really good idea.

What's more, I'd have thought the changes to characters would make it even easier to do WS vs WS (since you generally won't have to mess around with majority WS or any suchlike).

Seems like a real missed opportunity.

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PostSubject: Re: DE Rule Leaks   Thu Jun 01 2017, 11:25

I'm going to suggest this to my group, along with a few other house rules to make it feel like I'm actually playing a proper game.

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PostSubject: Re: DE Rule Leaks   Thu Jun 01 2017, 16:08

It seems that Eldar units are now much slower than they were previously. The old Fleet rules they enjoyed are gone and replaced by a 1" extra move on warriors and 2" on wyches. Back in the day when most units moved 4" Eldar all moved 6". Why did our Warriors suddenly lose the speed they were always known for? Everything is moving 6" standard. DE should be moving 8" now with Wyches maybe moving 9" to represent their extra speed. Moving only 1" more than a guardsman is hardly being swift, when you have no advantage with the new advance mechanic. And Frontline were talking up units saying they move much faster now. Hardly. Raiders/Ravagers get 2" more but they;re losing the benefit of fast units flat-outing in the shooting phase. Fortunately Ravagers can actually shoot again (changing lances to assault on vehicles was a great idea) but they're not really much faster now than they were in 7th. With the loss of any webway shenanigans the DE army is now much slower relatively. Sure they can move slightly further and fire etc but they lost much of their ability to forgo shooting and redeploy quickly. The army is way more static now.

Scourges are amazing now. No scatter on DS is superb. Heatlances are wicked now, overshadowing haywire and being easy to set up with the new DS rules. Mandrakes gaining DS is great too for extra options. Lets hope that a future codex will address the webway issue and allow the DE to make use of that mechanic again. Maybe in the form of a special detachment that allows units all units to DS.

Night Shields on vehicles is much needed. Venoms are now faster than Raiders and are harder to hit too. How do rapid fire weapons on vehicles though? Do they get max shots as if they stood still? Splinter Canons look to have taken a minor nerf but they were a crutch holding up the DE for a long time. Better they be slightly weaker but everything else be stronger.

Archons look like nothing more than cheap mandatory HQ choices, their buffs being pretty meh for a HQ. Succy's and Naemies are great buffing characters for other units in the army. Archons are just cheap! The bodyguards look great. They're basically mini-characters in their own right. Beastmasters look interesting too as a buffing character. What I'd like to see though is the Succubus (or through some other means) adjusting the roll off to keep units locked in combat. We need ways of leveraging that roll to ensure units can't leave combat with the wyches.

Bloodbrides got shafted again. They're still exactly the same as wyches except for that 1 extra attack and the redundancy of them each getting the same leadership as the hekatrix (which is wasted as they use her leadership anyway). So you pay more for 1 extra attack on a unit that can barely damage anything. Why can't they all at least take wyche weapons? Trueborn are better equipped warriors, why aren't Bloodbrides better equipped Wyches? Makes no sense.

Choosing what missiles to fire each turn on our fliers looks like a buff in utility. Though I can't work out what you would use the razorwing missiles on, hard to place them in their niche. The Void Mine from the Raven looks like it'll murder a squad of infantry but against vehicles it might only cause minor damage? Each d6 roll against a vehicle should do 2 mortal wounds instead of 1 so you have a chance to cripple a single vehicle with the big bomb, instead of just scratching the paintwork.

Last thing I can think of from my first look is with the Reavers. The Grav-Talon looks to be better than the Caltrops in every way and you'll get to use it every time you charge rather than hoping to force a unit to fall back before it gets use. Caltrops should probably reduce their fall back move, as caltrops are meant to cripple you and impede movement.

It looks like this is a reasonable first attempt at new DE but it also looks like GW is holding off from DE trickery until they have the base game balanced out. I hope (and somewhat expect) that when the codex eventually hits DE with get their webway portals back along with whatever wargear they need to be a nuisance. I think GW may be keeping the faction simple for now to see if they can hold their own in the vanilla game first.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: DE Rule Leaks   Thu Jun 01 2017, 16:12

I think that's a pretty good analysis.

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PostSubject: Re: DE Rule Leaks   Thu Jun 01 2017, 17:27

Hi All,

I'm returning from 5e where I played daemons and have now decided to play DE as 8th is being released. I've played a couple 7th games with a buddy(me as necrons, him as SoB) to start to get my bearings back but will go all out in 8th to get a feel for play as I was advised not to commit as much of the 7th rules to memory. Being as 8th has leaked and the DE profiles have been released what should i start buying to build a core foundation for my army? I want to create a semi competitive/competitive list that does well in a tournament environment as I do have a local tournament that I would like to frequent. If this is the wrong thread to discuss this feel free to let me know and I will post in the proper place. Thanks!
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PostSubject: Re: DE Rule Leaks   Thu Jun 01 2017, 19:43

I'm abit gutted with most of the de stuff. It just seems really bland, like they've taken lists of cool rules out. Like the archon, husk blade is tame, no soul trap etc just bland, not too be feared anymore.

Also, only the heame can take weapons from the separate wargear list! 'Many of the units...' lol no GW just one
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PostSubject: Re: DE Rule Leaks   Thu Jun 01 2017, 19:48

Hellions are improved though. With the drug +1 str or attack, possibly our best cc antitank?

Reavers though
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PostSubject: Re: DE Rule Leaks   Thu Jun 01 2017, 19:58

I never used the soul trap. It had a fun lore, but the point cost for what it did, made it useless. As mentioned before, more artifacts will probably show up in the codex. The index is a placeholder.
On the plus side the voidraven looks fun to use, hellions look good, scourges can use lances effectively, mandrakes looks great, the court are now multiwound and saves archon from being sniped, ramming raiders in blobs of infantry looks like a fun past time, and the leadership buffs stacks with drugs. Our fnp is now impossible to take away from us, coven are now slightly more survivable cronos looks fun with healing allies while he smothers enemies, the dark lance and dissie gun looks great, and ravagers are once again a good way to go, as they can advance and shoot.

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Von Snabel
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PostSubject: Re: DE Rule Leaks   Thu Jun 01 2017, 20:04

Man you should really go and play a game with the Soul trap. It's not that good but man, having a Archon with S10 running around beating the snot out of Mech is hillarous.

Last game i played against a Ork player I got up to S8 I think and then started Tank Hunting with him and some Incubi. Might not be that good but I'd take it over another kabalite any day for the fun it brings (ST, Agonizer and a Shadow Field. Maybe a armour Of Misery if you're feeling really wild)
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PostSubject: Re: DE Rule Leaks   Thu Jun 01 2017, 20:09

I just took him with a haywire, shadowfield and a succubus with armor of misery. Then I challenged knights with him. And stuck them in combat for three turns or so, while everything else did the work.

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PostSubject: Re: DE Rule Leaks   Fri Jun 02 2017, 13:55

Some of the flavour of DE will come back with the actual codex, though we have no idea how long that is in the making. All factions lost their flavour in 8th, but all of them will get that back eventually. Lets hope that when it does drop it'll be worth the wait.

Trying to get my head around how good haywire is now. A mortal wound on a 4+ or d3 on a 6+ seems ok but when a heatlance can tear through armour at -5 and d6 wounds (rolling twice if you get it right) I'm not sure it can compete. Haywire can hurt stuff you otherwise couldn't hurt with S4 but it's doing a small number of wounds per weapon. A single lance can do the job of 2 haywire's and at S6 can hurt most things anyway (have we seen a vehicle with higher than T8?). Heat lance is a fraction over twice the price of a haywire but what can two haywires bring to the table that a single lance cannot, considering you have to buy a scourge or reaver chassis to carry each weapon in the first place?

I think they missed the boat with those darklight grenades. I got excited when I saw them mentioned first, until I saw the stats. Why didn't they keep plasma grenades and add darklight grenades as mini blaster bombs or something? Way more interesting than claiming that a darklight blast is nothing more than a frag grenade+. It's half the S of a darklight pistol, how is it so weak!

Big bonus is being able to choose your drugs on select units. Now you can build a strat around your units and their drugs.

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PostSubject: Re: DE Rule Leaks   Fri Jun 02 2017, 14:26

It should be legal since they share the aeldari keyword, but when the codices arrive you might loose some important cp and wargear access.

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PostSubject: Re: DE Rule Leaks   Fri Jun 02 2017, 15:20

Demantiae wrote:
Some of the flavour of DE will come back with the actual codex, though we have no idea how long that is in the making. All factions lost their flavour in 8th, but all of them will get that back eventually. Lets hope that when it does drop it'll be worth the wait.

Trying to get my head around how good haywire is now. A mortal wound on a 4+ or d3 on a 6+ seems ok but when a heatlance can tear through armour at -5 and d6 wounds (rolling twice if you get it right) I'm not sure it can compete. Haywire can hurt stuff you otherwise couldn't hurt with S4 but it's doing a small number of wounds per weapon. A single lance can do the job of 2 haywire's and at S6 can hurt most things anyway (have we seen a vehicle with higher than T8?). Heat lance is a fraction over twice the price of a haywire but what can two haywires bring to the table that a single lance cannot, considering you have to buy a scourge or reaver chassis to carry each weapon in the first place?

I think they missed the boat with those darklight grenades. I got excited when I saw them mentioned first, until I saw the stats. Why didn't they keep plasma grenades and add darklight grenades as mini blaster bombs or something? Way more interesting than claiming that a darklight blast is nothing more than a frag grenade+. It's half the S of a darklight pistol, how is it so weak!

Big bonus is being able to choose your drugs on select units. Now you can build a strat around your units and their drugs.

Good point on the haywire, largely they aren't the best choice. Do think they have a role - thought I saw a vehicle with T14 already, not sure if I'm making that up. Mortal wounds are really important in AOS, think they might be in 8th too. Will likely be worth having a cheap squad of haywire scourges or the like, just in case of massive toughness values.
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PostSubject: Re: DE Rule Leaks   Sat Jun 03 2017, 13:18

Did anyone else pick up on how good wracks are now. Ossefactors are amazing. Always wounds on a 2+, AP -3 and if it kills a model the unit suffers a mortal wound on 4+. Not to mention they are T4 or T5 with a near by haemy and a 5++ save. 5 wracks with an ossefactor in a venom may be my new troops choice.
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PostSubject: Re: DE Rule Leaks   Sat Jun 03 2017, 14:26

Are they any good in close combat? Otherwise you waste the other 4 guys.

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PostSubject: Re: DE Rule Leaks   Sat Jun 03 2017, 14:30

Dread Serpent wrote:
Did anyone else pick up on how good wracks are now. Ossefactors are amazing. Always wounds on a 2+, AP -3 and if it kills a model the unit suffers a mortal wound on 4+. Not to mention they are T4 or T5 with a near by haemy and  a 5++ save. 5 wracks with an ossefactor in a venom may be my new troops choice.

I don't see the appeal over a Blaster. Especially since the Osseffactors are basically useless agaisnt Vehicles and only do 1 wound apiece.

Why not just use Warriors which are cheaper and can do extra wounds by shooting a unit with their guns? Razz
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PostSubject: Re: DE Rule Leaks   Sat Jun 03 2017, 14:34

Ossefactor is assault 1 so can still fire and charge. I would like to know what the tools/weapons of torture do too cause you can upgrade to use them too.

Wracks are much more durable than kabalites. Why bother with blasters when dark lances are much better anti tank now?
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PostSubject: Re: DE Rule Leaks   Sat Jun 03 2017, 16:02

Dread Serpent wrote:
Ossefactor is assault 1 so can still fire and charge.

Assault works differently this time around. All units can charge after shooting now, what assault does is allows you to advance and still fire it at a -1 to hit.
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PostSubject: Re: DE Rule Leaks   Sat Jun 03 2017, 17:50

Just notices a big red flag in the leaked rules.

Lelith Hesperax has the Combat Drugs special rule.

This could be a fluff thing- she's just that good- but it'd seem weird to represent that with a changeable bonus. This may represent a plot point of some sort, given the hints at the end of Gathering Storm 2 that she might side with the Ynnari.
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PostSubject: Re: DE Rule Leaks   Sat Jun 03 2017, 19:18

Wasn't it actually part of Lelith's fluff that she didn't use drugs?
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PostSubject: Re: DE Rule Leaks   Sat Jun 03 2017, 19:24

Yeah, but games workshop rewrites the fluff all the time so that's just a small irrelevant part.

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