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 8e - Leaked rules

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Leaked rules   Sun May 28 2017, 16:54

Im not worried about bolters at all..... everyone keeps talking about bolters....

What about the mass fire of Eldar S6, Taus S5-7, or all the Blasts... So many D6 damage Blasts... like IG, Flamers, Plasma Cannons (many of which has AP) (This is not including Assault cannons, Heavy Bolters, Lascannons etc...) there are so many weapons that does D3-D6 wounds and some type of rend now.

That is what i'm worried about, mostly b.c you can split fire now.

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Leaked rules   Sun May 28 2017, 17:03

@Kantalla wrote:
I did some number crunching for how many firings on average it takes to destroy a Venom using 7th against what we know of 8th.

Some assumptions, which could change the outputs substantially:
* Venom is a Starweaver statline with a 5++
* Disintegrator is S5 AP-3 Dmg2 Heavy 3
* Scatter Laser is S6 AP0 Dmg1 Heavy 4
* No cover or hit modifiers in place
* Bolters not in rapid fire range

The number of times a weapon needs to be fired to destroy a Venom:

Weapon............7th Edition...........8th Edition............% Change
Bolter...............27.0...................54.0....................+100%
Disintegrator......4.1.....................4.5.....................+9%
Scatter Laser.....2.1.....................6.8.....................+218%
Dark Lance........4.7....................7.3......................+55%
Lascannon.........3.9....................7.3......................+87%

That's a solid improvement across the board, especially for the Scatter Laser if my guesses at the stats are right. Maybe not enough to right everything, but expect the Venom to be tougher than it is now.

The one thing which might make a difference here is if weapons like the Scatter Laser and Heavy Bolter get Multiple Wounds. (I know you didn't run numbers for the Heavy Bolter, I'm just speaking in terms of general suitability).

Regardless, our transports are looking pretty good this edition. Let's just hope we have something worthwhile to put in them. Wink
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Leaked rules   Sun May 28 2017, 17:08

Honestly... Im really scared of what the Thunderfire Cannon might turn into. When i did play SM (yes in 6th and 7th I just sold my collect to limit my armies, i already had to many) i used them and they are just amazing....

8th ed Thunderfire might be an auto include or 2, bepending out Jink/Cover/Artillery fully works.

IG could also be king now, Manticore's, Wyvers, Battle Cannons, (that tank with 3 Plasma Cannons!)

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Leaked rules   Sun May 28 2017, 17:41

@amishprn86 wrote:
Honestly... Im really scared of what the Thunderfire Cannon might turn into. When i did play SM (yes in 6th and 7th I just sold my collect to limit my armies, i already had to many) i used them and they are just amazing....

8th ed Thunderfire might be an auto include or 2, bepending out Jink/Cover/Artillery fully works.

Yeah, those things could be brutal against our vehicles (if they're getting d3 hits for each blast template they would have had in 7th).

@amishprn86 wrote:
IG could also be king now, Manticore's, Wyvers, Battle Cannons, (that tank with 3 Plasma Cannons!)

Honestly, as someone who plays IG, I'm holding out hope that our infantry will be viable again. There's something about massed IG infantry that always appealed to me far more than their tanks.
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Imateria
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Leaked rules   Sun May 28 2017, 23:06

@The Shredder wrote:
@Kantalla wrote:
I did some number crunching for how many firings on average it takes to destroy a Venom using 7th against what we know of 8th.

Some assumptions, which could change the outputs substantially:
* Venom is a Starweaver statline with a 5++
* Disintegrator is S5 AP-3 Dmg2 Heavy 3
* Scatter Laser is S6 AP0 Dmg1 Heavy 4
* No cover or hit modifiers in place
* Bolters not in rapid fire range

The number of times a weapon needs to be fired to destroy a Venom:

Weapon............7th Edition...........8th Edition............% Change
Bolter...............27.0...................54.0....................+100%
Disintegrator......4.1.....................4.5.....................+9%
Scatter Laser.....2.1.....................6.8.....................+218%
Dark Lance........4.7....................7.3......................+55%
Lascannon.........3.9....................7.3......................+87%

That's a solid improvement across the board, especially for the Scatter Laser if my guesses at the stats are right. Maybe not enough to right everything, but expect the Venom to be tougher than it is now.

The one thing which might make a difference here is if weapons like the Scatter Laser and Heavy Bolter get Multiple Wounds. (I know you didn't run numbers for the Heavy Bolter, I'm just speaking in terms of general suitability).

Regardless, our transports are looking pretty good this edition. Let's just hope we have something worthwhile to put in them. Wink
We already know thats pretty much not the case, the Heavy Bolter was shown off early on as being D1 and even the new Primaris Assault Bolter is D1, same goes for Plasma weapons unless you overcharge them (then they become S8, D2 but straight up kill the wielder on a to-hit roll of 1). The Scatter Laser hasn't been shown yet but anything other than D1 will be an almighty slap in the face regarding promises of better balance.
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Leaked rules   Sun May 28 2017, 23:36

I doubt the play testers would be okay with D 2+ scatter Lasers
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Leaked rules   Mon May 29 2017, 02:46

@CptMetal wrote:
I doubt the play testers would be okay with D 2+ scatter Lasers

They and Multi lasers are basically the same gun, i think they both will be S6, Rend0, assault 3
But will just cost more points now, like 20pts (im guessing 21pts lol! )

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Leaked rules   Mon May 29 2017, 02:58

My guess at the Scatter Laser was D1 as stated in my assumptions. I'm about 80% odds that it will be D1 but I've been wrong before and will be again.

If my guess was right then medium strength high rate of fire weapons like the Scatter Laser or Tau rifles Will be less effective against light vehicles. In my table the Scatter Laser is the worst affected weapon by the change to 8th rules as you need more than 3 three times as many firings to down a Venom as in 7th.

In contrast the Dark Eldar weapons are relatively little impacted either due to good AP on the Dark Lance or D2 on the Disintegrator.

I really need to see how Raiders will look before I can make any real conclusions as that 3+ Jink was pretty solid in many games.

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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Leaked rules   Mon May 29 2017, 06:44

Jink isn't in the core rules right? So it should be on the Skimmer Datasheet, right?
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Leaked rules   Mon May 29 2017, 08:57

A question regarding the Fight phase and Heroic Intervention.
Do I understand it right, that you can move your character in combat with any enemy unit within 3" even if the fight goes on at the opposite table edge, far away?

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Leaked rules   Mon May 29 2017, 09:14

@Imateria wrote:

We already know thats pretty much not the case, the Heavy Bolter was shown off early on as being D1 and even the new Primaris Assault Bolter is D1, same goes for Plasma weapons unless you overcharge them (then they become S8, D2 but straight up kill the wielder on a to-hit roll of 1).

Ah, okay. I must have missed those statlines.

@Imateria wrote:
The Scatter Laser hasn't been shown yet but anything other than D1 will be an almighty slap in the face regarding promises of better balance.

I'd hope so. But at the same time, I've got no idea what qualifies a weapon for D>1 in the new edition.
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Leaked rules   Mon May 29 2017, 09:50

Well. Anything that isn't working with high rate of fire but devastating shots.
Any isn't small calibre of course.
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Hen Tai, the tentacle guy
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Leaked rules   Mon May 29 2017, 11:13


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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Leaked rules   Mon May 29 2017, 11:30

@Hen Tai, the tentacle guy wrote:
http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/333990-leaked-chaos-space-marine-rules/

Something I find interesting is how they're not using round numbers anymore (even for single models). Like 102pts for a Predator, 119 for a Forgefiend, 146 for a Daemon Prince.

I guess I'm just curious about how they ended up with such odd numbers. I find it hard to believe that they playtested to the extent that they worked out that a 120pt Forgefiend was overcosted but a 119pt Forgefiend was perfect. Razz

Is there some sort of formula, perhaps?
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Leaked rules   Mon May 29 2017, 11:44

Probably there is a formula, but possibly also some archaic notion that it is worse than something else but actually not noticably worse. I found that it sometimes happened when playtesting for kings of war. You have something worth an amount of points (A = 120 for this example) and you have a similar thing B in a different army that is nearly the same but just a little bit worse, so you want to price it as 115. But the special rule is not really usefull and at 115 it would be quite a bit better then the 110 optie in the same army. So you price B at 119, to show yes it is cheaper then the 120 optie but it is actually pretty much the same effectiveness except in one special case where there is a minor benefit but that will rarely happen.

Expecially since they already lost complete numbers for regular cheap troopers and weapons.
So there was no real loss in pointing it this way.
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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Leaked rules   Mon May 29 2017, 11:57

Anybody else notice a rhino is now 70pts?
The stock standard muhreen transport just DOUBLED in pts.

Could our skimmers also be much more expensive?... we shall have to wait and see but this is very interesting. Surprised
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Leaked rules   Mon May 29 2017, 12:16

That rhino is now likely T6, W7 with a 3+ save and a move of 12. Combined with being able to carry multiple units, its ability to 'fight' in combat and so on.... yeah, point going up is not surprising.

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Leaked rules   Mon May 29 2017, 12:20

Our skimmers will probably also be more expensive.
My hope is that they do not go up in points to much.

The problem was that most cheap vehicles were to cheap, ours included. Just for board control and survivability they were really good.
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Imateria
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Leaked rules   Mon May 29 2017, 14:07

Lord of Skulls and Magnus both took a pretty hefty points drop as well.
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Leaked rules   Mon May 29 2017, 14:14

Helldrake moves 30"... there's no way our flyers are slower than a helldrake.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Leaked rules   Mon May 29 2017, 14:18

Looks like Helldrake turn 1 charges are going to be a thing.
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Logan Frost
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Leaked rules   Mon May 29 2017, 14:22

Not if flyers enter from turn 2 like in 7th.
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Leaked rules   Mon May 29 2017, 14:36

Could be possible but I think that would be unlikely.
Since I think they did away with the main rules for the most part, and other units like tau are also flyers. We have seen the datasheet and it has no special mention. I think turn 1 charges with the helldrake are a thing.
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Leaked rules   Mon May 29 2017, 14:45

@|Meavar wrote:
other units like tau are also flyers
Good point.
Thinking about it, since vehicles can charge, will other flyers have a rule preventing them to charge?
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Leaked rules   Mon May 29 2017, 14:50

Jeah seems like they should, but do not remember seeing something in the spoilers about it.
Otherwise you should nearly always charge a lone unit with a flyer since then that unit cannot shoot anymore and you can get out of combat and shoot next turn again anyway.
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