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 8e - Leaked rules

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Leaked rules   Thu May 25 2017, 09:20

@TeenageAngst wrote:
Mobility is king. A 16" move means a turn 1 charge is not only possible but probable with enough boats.

Except you have to disembark before the vehicle moves...

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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Leaked rules   Thu May 25 2017, 09:30

The boats themselves charge.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Leaked rules   Thu May 25 2017, 10:12

I'm not sure they'll have much impact on the charge unless we get some vehicle upgrades that help out there. I doubt we'll even get the same stats as the Starweaver in terms of offense. I'm also not sure you want to be throwing boats into the middle of the enemy army as they could just surround you and prevent you from disembarking the units inside.

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Eldur
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Leaked rules   Thu May 25 2017, 10:18

Why should a Starweaver be better in CC than a Venom? The mini itself is sold with hanging wyches... Well maybe we get WS4+ instead of 3+ as harlqeuins had WS5(old one)

I will (shoot then) charge with all my boats in turn one. Remember: 18" between deployment zones in matched play. Of course I will charge the shooty units and stay away from melee specialists... it will be quite predictable if a unit will or won't be able to blow a transport in a turn of combat.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Leaked rules   Thu May 25 2017, 10:37

Even if we do get the same stats as the Starweaver, they're still only killing about half a Marine on the charge (4 attacks, 3+ to hit, 3+ to wound, 3+ save)

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Voidhawk
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Leaked rules   Thu May 25 2017, 11:07

@Count Adhemar wrote:
Even if we do get the same stats as the Starweaver, they're still only killing about half a Marine on the charge (4 attacks, 3+ to hit, 3+ to wound, 3+ save)

The objective of the boat-charge isn't to kill loads of dudes, but tie them up so they have to Fall Back in their turn rather than do anything useful. Then on your turn you disembark (or more likely scramble from the crater where the Raider used to be) and charge the squad properly.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Leaked rules   Thu May 25 2017, 11:28

I'm hoping we will have other units that will be cheaper, effective in combat and able to tie up enemy units quickly (looking at you Beastmasters, Hellions and Reavers). That way we still get to shoot with our Venoms and Raiders.

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Imateria
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Leaked rules   Thu May 25 2017, 12:39

With things like Shock Prows, Chain Snares and Envenomed Blades (one can hope) I can see Raiders being excellent for doing damage on the charge and the same goes for Reavers and their Cluster Caltrops. I'd much rather keep Venoms back to provide fire support alongside Ravagers.
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Draco
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Leaked rules   Thu May 25 2017, 13:09

@Eldur wrote:
Why should a Starweaver be better in CC than a Venom? The mini itself is sold with hanging wyches... Well maybe we get WS4+ instead of 3+ as harlqeuins had WS5(old one)

I will (shoot then) charge with all my boats in turn one. Remember: 18" between deployment zones in matched play. Of course I will charge the shooty units and stay away from melee specialists... it will be quite predictable if a unit will or won't be able to blow a transport in a turn of combat.

I've heard the 18" thing a couple times, where was that said?
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Dark Elf Dave
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Leaked rules   Thu May 25 2017, 14:22

Unless you are playing an idiot then even if there is 18" between deployment zones I doubt a first turn charge will be available often. Especially against a shooty army.
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Leaked rules   Thu May 25 2017, 14:40

@Dark Elf Dave wrote:
Unless you are playing an idiot then even if there is 18" between deployment zones I doubt a first turn charge will be available often.  Especially against a shooty army.

If your movement is 12-15", plus 2D6 charge, you could easily cross that. Especially now since you don't even have to be in base contact for a valid charge move.
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Leaked rules   Thu May 25 2017, 15:04

Only if we can move with our transports and get out to attack in one turn.
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Leaked rules   Thu May 25 2017, 15:07

@CptMetal wrote:
Only if we can move with our transports and get out to attack in one turn.

I thought this was the Grotesque strategy where we just ram the vehicles with guys on board into combat, vehicle dies (maybe) in combat, then we pile out and assault next turn?
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Leaked rules   Thu May 25 2017, 15:44

Deployment zones have changed somewhat. http://www.thedarkcity.net/t15409-missions#183870
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Leaked rules   Thu May 25 2017, 16:06

I predict many shooty armies are going to be deploying as far back as possible.

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Logan Frost
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Leaked rules   Thu May 25 2017, 16:13

Shooty armies are not that safe anyway, you can deepstrike just at 9", and charge 8" with a rerollable die thanks to CP.
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Leaked rules   Thu May 25 2017, 18:38

@Logan Frost wrote:
Shooty armies are not that safe anyway, you can deepstrike just at 9", and charge 8" with a rerollable die thanks to CP.

Oh true I forgot about that Twisted Evil heh heh heh heh heh...

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Imateria
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Leaked rules   Fri May 26 2017, 00:16

@Logan Frost wrote:
Shooty armies are not that safe anyway, you can deepstrike just at 9", and charge 8" with a rerollable die thanks to CP.
MORE than 9", you still need to roll a 9 to get in.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Leaked rules   Fri May 26 2017, 05:01

They knew what they were doing, you can in theory right now have units of 3-5 flamers with DSing... flamers are 8" lol.

This to me shows how much thought is going into the game for balancing purposes.

DS+ charge is a thing but you need to roll above average.

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Leaked rules   Fri May 26 2017, 05:02

Actually, you only need to roll an 8. Universal charge distance is now 2D6+1", rather than 2D6".

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Leaked rules   Fri May 26 2017, 09:12

Orks can reroll charge distance now, like in 7th. We did that but much better, let's see if we will have some rule like fleet of foot. In any case, charging 9-1" with a command reroll is not a fantasy.

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Dark Elf Dave
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Leaked rules   Fri May 26 2017, 12:59

@Draco wrote:
@CptMetal wrote:
Only if we can move with our transports and get out to attack in one turn.

I thought this was the Grotesque strategy where we just ram the vehicles with guys on board into combat, vehicle dies (maybe) in combat, then we pile out and assault next turn?  

So that is a 2nd turn assault and not a first turn assault...like I said I just don't see there being that many units that can expect to make it into assault on the 1st turn unless of course your opponent goes first and shortens the distance.

If you both deploy as far up the table (18" away) and lets say Wyches move 8" (not confirmed) then of course you only end up needing a 9" charge move to get within an inch. If I had deployed first and set my Wyches up at the front of the deployment zone, then I would be surprised to see my opponent deploy within range of a 1st turn charge...like I said they would have to be an idiot.

The new rules are great imo. Being able to disembark and both shoot and assault is great, but you have to do this at the start of the phase and can't hitch a ride into assault in one turn.
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Leaked rules   Fri May 26 2017, 13:07

@Ikol wrote:
Actually, you only need to roll an 8.  Universal charge distance is now 2D6+1", rather than 2D6".
No. Being MORE THAN 9" away means you'd need to roll a 10 to get in currently. With the need now being to get within 1" of an enemy unit it means you need to roll a 9, that more than makes the difference between needing an 8 or 9.
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Leaked rules   Fri May 26 2017, 13:10

@Dark Elf Dave wrote:
@Draco wrote:
@CptMetal wrote:
Only if we can move with our transports and get out to attack in one turn.

I thought this was the Grotesque strategy where we just ram the vehicles with guys on board into combat, vehicle dies (maybe) in combat, then we pile out and assault next turn?  

So that is a 2nd turn assault and not a first turn assault...like I said I just don't see there being that many units that can expect to make it into assault on the 1st turn unless of course your opponent goes first and shortens the distance.

If you both deploy as far up the table (18" away) and lets say Wyches move 8" (not confirmed) then of course you only end up needing a 9" charge move to get within an inch.  If I had deployed first and set my Wyches up at the front of the deployment zone, then I would be surprised to see my opponent deploy within range of a 1st turn charge...like I said they would have to be an idiot.

The new rules are great imo.  Being able to disembark and both shoot and assault is great, but you have to do this at the start of the phase and can't hitch a ride into assault in one turn.

Where is this 18" coming from? There are 6 deployment types and the one they've shown is table quarters with an 18" bubble in the middle but that doesn't mean Dawn of War, Vanguard or Hammer and Anvil will be changed from their current 24" gap. Besides, our turn 1 charges will come from our vehicles that will cover the majority of that gap in a single movement phase.
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Leaked rules   Fri May 26 2017, 13:13

@Dark Elf Dave wrote:
@Draco wrote:
@CptMetal wrote:
Only if we can move with our transports and get out to attack in one turn.

I thought this was the Grotesque strategy where we just ram the vehicles with guys on board into combat, vehicle dies (maybe) in combat, then we pile out and assault next turn?  

So that is a 2nd turn assault and not a first turn assault...like I said I just don't see there being that many units that can expect to make it into assault on the 1st turn unless of course your opponent goes first and shortens the distance.

If you both deploy as far up the table (18" away) and lets say Wyches move 8" (not confirmed) then of course you only end up needing a 9" charge move to get within an inch.  If I had deployed first and set my Wyches up at the front of the deployment zone, then I would be surprised to see my opponent deploy within range of a 1st turn charge...like I said they would have to be an idiot.

The new rules are great imo.  Being able to disembark and both shoot and assault is great, but you have to do this at the start of the phase and can't hitch a ride into assault in one turn.

Your transports are assaulting turn 1 in this example. That hopefully means they are tied up that entire first turn, and from the limited rules so far, it's completely possible. If the guys on board get to use their pistols while still embarked, all the better. And of course there shouldn't be many units that can pull off a turn 1 assault, but we should be counted among them at the very least fluff wise.
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