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 8e - Leaked rules

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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Leaked rules   Tue May 30 2017, 23:15

I do still say DE is going to be tough as hell. But I'm outright livid we are essentially 3 armies now in one. There is literally no reason to mix and match.

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Leaked rules   Tue May 30 2017, 23:15

Splinter Cannons are nerf, Assault 3 Rapid fire. SO only 6 shots from venoms now, unless within 18".

Dark Light Grenades: S4 -1

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Leaked rules   Tue May 30 2017, 23:24

Ok Reavers Coltrops is from units leaving and Grav Talons is for us charge, we have both now.

Hellions move 14"!!!!

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Cherrycoke
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Leaked rules   Tue May 30 2017, 23:26

splinter cannons are rapid fire 3 now?
omg that seems god awful
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Leaked rules   Wed May 31 2017, 10:57

@amishprn86 wrote:
Yep pfp is per turn... WTF

lol!

So we get FnP 6+ for a single game turn?

I think I'm about to be overwhelmed by GW's generosity.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Leaked rules   Wed May 31 2017, 11:03

No, it very specifically says that the bonuses are cumulative.

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Leaked rules   Wed May 31 2017, 12:45

@Count Adhemar wrote:
No, it very specifically says that the bonuses are cumulative.

Ah, you're right. I hadn't noticed the box at the bottom.
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Toffeehammer
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Leaked rules   Fri Jun 02 2017, 19:26

Trueborn venom squads still seem pretty workable (the reason I'm not too upset over the splinter cannon change is because my venoms were normally within 18 to allow their blaster-wielding passengers to fire anyway). Honestly I'm not sure whether it's accurate to say the blasters were nerfed or the dark lances were buffed considering the circumstances but since the former have half the damage potential of the latter now I guess it's a question of whether to go for the usual 4 blasters or 2 dark lances.

I'm really not sure whether haywire blasters are still good or not. My scourges have historically never had much trouble making their points back with those but then vehicles are very different now. My regular blaster scourges have always performed pretty well too but I can't help but wonder if heat lances are the new hotness now (pun not intended).

It's a shame cluster caltrops aren't so good anymore though. Seems like the grav-talon is a better take for the reavers these days.

Either way I guess I'll finally end up buying a voidraven at some point since they seem like a good time. I only wish you could still take incubi in squads of 3-4 since I have no idea who my melee Archon is going to hang with in her venom anymore.
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Demantiae
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Leaked rules   Fri Jun 02 2017, 21:36

Haywire Blasters are weird now. 50% of your hits are causing mortal wounds on vehicles and 1/3 of those wounds will be at 1d3. However at S4 and with a single shot and single damage unless you roll that lucky 6 the base weapon won't do much against most vehicles. So 4 shots, assume one misses, you might do 1d3+3 wounds, one of which gets a save. Call it 5 wounds as a mean damage output. A single Dark or Heat lance can do that in one shot, two of them give you good odd's of matching it (with a potential to double it). I'm scratching my head figuring out what roll haywire scourge are meant to perform now. Heat Lances are for taking out hidden artillery tanks or assassinating heroes, dark lances are great for general tank hunting, blasters are good for monster hunting (combined with some charging afterwards), but what is haywire for?

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Hen Tai, the tentacle guy
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Leaked rules   Fri Jun 02 2017, 21:39

Splintercannons in infantry squads are better than before, since they are no longer heavy.

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Leaked rules   Fri Jun 02 2017, 21:40

Haywire is worded oddly, the way we read it is this

You roll to wound, if you wound it and it was rolled a 4+ then you deal a mortal wound in addition to that 1st roll, but that 1st damage can still be saved sense HWB are only -1ap it more most likely a 50/50 chance to be saved.

If you rolled a 6 then its D3 mortal wounds.

We might be wrong tho.

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CurstAlchemist
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Leaked rules   Fri Jun 02 2017, 22:00

The way I understand Haywire Blaster is, when used against a vehicle,

If you roll a 4+ on your to wound roll you do the 1 wound the weapon normally does in addition to 1 mortal wound. The normal wound can still be saved at a -1 armor.

If you roll a 6 on your to wound roll you do the 1 normal wound in addition to d3 mortal wounds with the normal wound being saved against with a -1 armor.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Leaked rules   Fri Jun 02 2017, 22:05

B.c i dont fully understand some written ways of english i have to say it differently.

1) You roll to would
2) you need a 5+ to wound (Nothing is t4 from what ive seen in vehicle rules)
3) You rolled a 5+ to wound
4) Snese you wound on a 5+ you did 1 wound that can be saved
5) B.c you rolled a 4+ due to haywire rule you do 1 mortal wound
6) they roll save of 5+ (4+ with a -1ap) they saved their save
7) they take a total of 2 wounds.

Correct? this is how we were playing it.

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CurstAlchemist
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Leaked rules   Fri Jun 02 2017, 22:23

Okay so going with your example:

1) You have successfully hit so you roll to wound
2) You need a 5+ to wound
3) You successfully rolled a 5 to wound
4) Since you successfully wounded you did 1 wound that can be saved
5) As you wounded on a 4 or 5 with the haywire rule you do 1 mortal wound which can't be saved
6) The enemy vehicle must roll a 5+ armor save (they had a 4+ armor -1 from ap) to negate the 1 normal wound
7a) They successfully save with a 5 negating the normal wound
8a) They only take 1 wound from the mortal wound.

7b) They fail the save by rolling a 4 and take the normal wound
8b) They take 2 wounds, one from failing to save and 1 from the mortal wound

This is how I'm understanding it.


Last edited by CurstAlchemist on Fri Jun 02 2017, 22:25; edited 1 time in total
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Leaked rules   Fri Jun 02 2017, 22:24

Right but potentially doing 2 wounds for every 4-5 rolled, and potentially 4 wounds for every 6 rolled.

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Leaked rules   Fri Jun 02 2017, 22:26

Correct, edited my post to clarify.
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The Strange Dark One
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Leaked rules   Fri Jun 02 2017, 23:29

I think it can be summarized as follows:

Roll of 4: 1 Mortal wounds from Haywire
Roll of 5: 1 Mortal wounds from Haywire + 1 normal Wound at AP-1
Roll of 6: D3 Mortal wounds from Haywire + 1 normal wound at AP-1
Assuming the vehicle is not T8+


Doing the mathhammer with a 4+ save gives us:
Normal Damage (5+): = 0,222 average wounds
33% (5+) chance for the normal damage to apply. And 66% chance to bypass the save.

Normal Haywire Damage (on 4 or 5) = 0,333 average wounds
33% chance for a mortal wound, no armor saves.

Critical Haywire Damage (on a 6) = 0,333 average wounds
16% chance for D3 mortal wounds, with 2 damage on average.

Total average wounds: 0,888888889
7th edition Haywire wound chance: 0,833333333

The problem only was that vehicles have much more wounds. But I guess that is mitigated by the lower cost of Scourges and higher cost of vehicles.

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Leaked rules   Fri Jun 02 2017, 23:35

@The Strange Dark One wrote:
I think it can be summarized as follows:

Roll of 4: 1 Mortal wounds from Haywire
Roll of 5: 1 Mortal wounds from Haywire + 1 normal Wound at AP-1
Roll of 6: D3 Mortal wounds from Haywire + 1 normal wound at AP-1
Assuming the vehicle is not T8+


Doing the mathhammer with a 4+ save gives us:
Normal Damage (5+): = 0,222 average wounds
33% (5+) chance for the normal damage to apply. And 66% chance to bypass the save.

Normal Haywire Damage (on 4 or 5) = 0,333 average wounds
33% chance for a mortal wound, no armor saves.

Critical Haywire Damage (on a 6) = 0,333 average wounds
16% chance for D3 mortal wounds, with 2 damage on average.

Total average wounds: 0,888888889
7th edition Haywire wound chance: 0,833333333

The problem only was that vehicles have much more wounds. But I guess that is mitigated by the lower cost of Scourges and higher cost of vehicles.

I do think that haywires will more reliably put wounds on superheavies (T9+) than lances... which makes them a bit niche. But they're also cheaper than lances, so there's that.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Leaked rules   Fri Jun 02 2017, 23:43

Heat Lances and Dark Lances i feel are better than Haywire for sure.

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The Strange Dark One
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Leaked rules   Fri Jun 02 2017, 23:50

@krayd wrote:
I do think that haywires will more reliably put wounds on superheavies (T9+) than lances... which makes them a bit niche. But they're also cheaper than lances, so there's that.

Not really, sadly.
A Lance might only wound T9+ on a 5+ (33%), but it also deals 3.5 wounds on average.
And due to its AP-4 the target won't get a save most the time. Maybe an occassional 6+ save

This is 1.16 average wounds per hit.
Haywire loses 0.16 of average wounds, giving it 0.72 average wounds per hit.


However, Haywire and Dark Lances are almost on par if the target has a 5+ invul save.
At this point Lances do 0.77 average wounds whereas Haywire does about 0.7 per hit.[/quote]

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Leaked rules   Fri Jun 02 2017, 23:55

Yes but the Dark Lances will be better against most other things as well, multi wound models, or just 2+ saves.

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Leaked rules   Fri Jun 02 2017, 23:57

@amishprn86 wrote:
Yes but the Dark Lances will be better against most other things as well, multi wound models, or just 2+ saves.

Again.. you get what you pay for. haywires are the budget option.
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Leaked rules   Sat Jun 03 2017, 00:03

Its only 8pts difference

For me that 8pts are well worth the extra usefulness.

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Leaked rules   Sat Jun 03 2017, 01:01

im not sure if this is the place to ask, but does quantum shielding protect against mortal wounds? If not haywire could be helpful against them.
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Leaked rules   Sat Jun 03 2017, 01:12

"Each time this model suffers am unsaved wound roll a D6, if the result is less than"

We were reading it as 1 damage it never works, so doing 2 damage or Haywire is the most effective way to kill them.

2 Damage is just faster, they still get a 16.7% chance to ignore it, but 6 hits of 2d will equal 10 total damage.

And Haywire is good due to no saves vs mortal wounds, and we read it as "it counts as 2 separate wounds" sense a roll of 1 is always a fail that is 1 mortal damage with potential of another damage id fail the save.

DE Dis cannons, Talos, Haemonculu and HWB are some of the better things to deal with Necron vehicles, DE might be the best counter (and Harlequins) to Necrons.

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