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 8e - Leaked rules

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Leninade
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Leaked rules   Tue May 30 2017, 03:01

You would have a point if it weren't for the 250 point land raiders, 13 point tacs, and 25 point lascannon. The rhino probably got more expensive because it doesn't look all that less durable than a land raider. About half the wounds at only -1T. Jesus what were they thinking making land raiders only T8?
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krayd
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Leaked rules   Tue May 30 2017, 03:05

@Leninade wrote:
You would have a point if it weren't for the 250 point land raiders, 13 point tacs, and 25 point lascannon. The rhino probably got more expensive because it doesn't look all that less durable than a land raider. About half the wounds at only -1T. Jesus what were they thinking making land raiders only T8?

T8 is fine with me. Means that dark lances still have a 50% chance of wounding. Razz

Double the wounds probably makes quite a bit of difference though.
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Leninade
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Leaked rules   Tue May 30 2017, 03:08

I hope so, we are comparing the durability of rhinos and land raiders after all
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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Leaked rules   Tue May 30 2017, 06:33

The save is a big difference as well - 2+ is a big deal

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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Leaked rules   Tue May 30 2017, 08:11

Does the 250pt landraider come with all its guns?
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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Leaked rules   Tue May 30 2017, 09:00

@Massaen wrote:
Considering the increase in points - rhino is 70+ points, drop pod is 105!

This makes think raiders and venoms will cost a lot more in 8th.

Maybe 100pts for a raider with DL and something cool like shock prow and/or racks.
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doriii
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Leaked rules   Tue May 30 2017, 10:28

doesnt every tau unit have like a gazillion guns that can all shoot at different targets 8th ed. they used to overkill raider or msu, now they can take on many more units at a time
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Leaked rules   Tue May 30 2017, 10:30

@TeenageAngst wrote:

Might wanna dial it up to 11.

This explanation requires a number of assumptions:

- Wraithknights will probably cost more points than they did before, comparatively speaking, because the #1 complaint in 7th edition was "Wraithknights are undercosted."

- The D-Cannons are probably going to be similar to the D-Scythes, just maybe with more damage but fewer shots.

- Stomp will either be gone or replaced with something so bad as to be inconsequential to the actual functionality of the unit.

- They probably lost the benefit of being a Jump unit.

None of these assumptions I think are ridiculous nor unexpected, and were it merely those, I would say the Wraithknight would be a perfectly fine option, well balanced compared to the rest of the spread. However they then proceeded to nerf it further. The number of wounds it has for example is a misdirection in 8th of Sigmar. It says 24 but what it actually has is 12, with the remaining 12 being there for stat padding. Like Superheavies, it will lose combat effectiveness, it will lose shooting effectiveness, and it will lose mobility as it takes damage. Now 24 wounds is a lot to take out, but 12? With just a 3+ save? That's easy mode. Even with an invul save, a few Ravager volleys will shoot this guy's kneecaps out in one turn. And with everything not only moving faster on average but also hitting and wounding more reliably, the effectiveness of this unit diminishes drastically. Bolters are now a threat, anti-tank is a huge threat, it loses its ability to outright remove tough enemies, and worst of all, with diminishing movement it can't chase enemies. Not being able to effectively chase opponents down means this guy is left as an objective holder the moment it drops to half health. A big, fat, paper tiger that squads on an objective until something can be bothered to remove it as it plinks away at opponents shooting with a 5+ to hit, and god help you if you brought the sword and board variant.

To quote Sam Elliot, "He's great out of the gate but not one for stamina." You're going to be paying the points for the crib sheet at full health. After it loses those wounds however what you're left with is an ineffectual mess bumbling around trying to fight things that it should have killed 2 turns ago. Just like the Knight Titans, the victory doesn't come from killing it but instead for hobbling it and then moving around it. Stupid players will not realize this and still bring one to fill a vital role only for that role to no longer be filled after the first couple turns as it wanders around moving 10" or 8" a turn, unable to catch even jump pack marines. Those diminishing returns, that lack of utility after it drops in wounds, is where the real nerf comes from, because there is no way to rely on something when it becomes less effective over time.

Okay, thank you for explaining it in detail.

- With regard to point cost, I wouldn't make any assumptions. The point cost was certainly a complaint last edition, but given the changes it's entirely possible that the point cost remained largely unchanged. I mean, let's be honest - this was a likely possibility in spite of the complaints. Wink

- With regard to losing the benefit of being a jump unit, are you talking about movement speed or Fly? If the former, Knights still have 12" movement (to start with, anyway), so I'd be surprised if Wraithknights didn't have the same.

- With regard to Stomp, if it's the same as for Knights then it will be 3 attacks at S: User, AP-2. I understand that this is a lot worse, however, Stomp was one of the worst abilities in 7th.

- With regard to losing effectiveness as it loses wounds, if its anything like a Knight then you'll need to inflict 18 wounds to it to really dent its speed and offence. At 12 wounds, it will likely have a 9" move and be hitting on 4+. Let's be honest here - your to-hit roll is no worse than most Tyranid Monstrous Creatures, but you're faster and with higher strength, higher toughness and better weapons. It's hardly impotent at this point. When it's down to 6 wounds and moving at 6" and hitting on 5s, then it's starting to look crippled.

I do get where you're coming from and you might well be right. At the same time, GW does have a tendency to be generous to its 'centrepiece' models in 40k, so I'd be surprised if they went out of their way to cripple the wraithknight.
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SERAFF
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Leaked rules   Tue May 30 2017, 10:47

@The Shredder wrote:


- With regard to losing effectiveness as it loses wounds, if its anything like a Knight then you'll need to inflict 18 wounds to it to really dent its speed and offence. At 12 wounds, it will likely have a 9" move and be hitting on 4+. Let's be honest here - your to-hit roll is no worse than most Tyranid Monstrous Creatures, but you're faster and with higher strength, higher toughness and better weapons. It's hardly impotent at this point. When it's down to 6 wounds and moving at 6" and hitting on 5s, then it's starting to look crippled.

Don't forget, that the Knight will get -1 to hit if it moves, as most of its weapons are Heavy.
So combined with -1 to hit for being 50% dead it makes him much more crippled.

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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Leaked rules   Tue May 30 2017, 10:53

Power from pain got leaked. See Natfka. Pretty much like now, but has +1 to hit and -1 to Ld. Kinda nice.

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Hen Tai, the tentacle guy
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Leaked rules   Tue May 30 2017, 10:54

I hope it is cumulative, and not different from turn to turn.

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Eldur
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Leaked rules   Tue May 30 2017, 10:55

We're already discussing it in the 8e Drukhari thread

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Leaked rules   Tue May 30 2017, 11:15

@SERAFF wrote:
Don't forget, that the Knight will get -1 to hit if it moves, as most of its weapons are Heavy.
So combined with -1 to hit for being 50% dead it makes him much more crippled.

Oh, that's a good point. Unless the Titanic ability removes that penalty (the Chaos Knight has it but I've no idea what it does)?

But yeah, if Wraithknights suffer the -1 penalty from Heavy weapons then I can definitely see the issue.
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krayd
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Leaked rules   Tue May 30 2017, 15:44

Maybe I'm misreading the Tau rules, but it looks like markerlight hits are cumulative *and* permanent. So, if one of your units gets hit by 4 of them, it's going to be stuck with bonuses to be destroyed for the rest of the game. That seems pretty powerful to me, other alleged nerfs aside.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Leaked rules   Tue May 30 2017, 15:52

Markerlights last until the end of the phase but aren't consumed by the first unit that shoots the target. So you pick a target, paint it with markerlights and then everything else that shoots it that phase benefits from those markerlights. Much better way of doing it than the previous version IMO.

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krayd
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Leaked rules   Tue May 30 2017, 16:02

@Count Adhemar wrote:
Markerlights last until the end of the phase but aren't consumed by the first unit that shoots the target. So you pick a target, paint it with markerlights and then everything else that shoots it that phase benefits from those markerlights. Much better way of doing it than the previous version IMO.

Well, not quite as good as I thought, but still pretty powerful for taking out choice units.
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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Leaked rules   Tue May 30 2017, 19:19

Quote :

I do get where you're coming from and you might well be right.

I'm rarely wrong with my analysis.

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Leaked rules   Tue May 30 2017, 19:24

@The Shredder wrote:
@SERAFF wrote:
Don't forget, that the Knight will get -1 to hit if it moves, as most of its weapons are Heavy.
So combined with -1 to hit for being 50% dead it makes him much more crippled.

Oh, that's a good point. Unless the Titanic ability removes that penalty (the Chaos Knight has it but I've no idea what it does)?

But yeah, if Wraithknights suffer the -1 penalty from Heavy weapons then I can definitely see the issue.

If WKs keep BF, which is rumoured to be that they wont get the -1 for movement, I think that WKs will still be decent/good, while not being auto-include. Pricewise, we can expect something close to IKs, but thats ofc only guess...

Also we are not counting with all the new mechanics. WK can lock up a Land Raider or IK or Primaris Dread in Melee...

And if... IF it keeps jump pack, it will have FLY keyword, meaning it can fall back and shoot if something tries to lock him up...

I am guessing it will be similar as with psykers. Those will pretty much cancel 50% of each other's effectiveness. So you can either choose to mitigate psyker or bring more dakka. Same with big dudes. Anyway, without full rules, its just guessing.
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Leaked rules   Tue May 30 2017, 19:24

@TeenageAngst wrote:
I'm rarely wrong with my analysis.
Another guy used to say it, and look where it got him. Wink
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Leaked rules   Tue May 30 2017, 19:27

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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Leaked rules   Tue May 30 2017, 19:31

When I have my IQ on my signature as a way to prop up my own arguments from authority, then you can compare me to him. All I include is my terrible YouTube videos and elf fiction.

Edit: I've glanced at those. Really they just confirm things I assumed a while ago, or are not enough information with the things we know now to derive anything useful further. I'm looking forward to sisters being good.
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Leaked rules   Tue May 30 2017, 19:49

@Painjunky wrote:
@Massaen wrote:
Considering the increase in points - rhino is 70+ points, drop pod is 105!

This makes think raiders and venoms will cost a lot more in 8th.

Maybe 100pts for a raider with DL and something cool like shock prow and/or racks.

You were spot on!
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Leaked rules   Tue May 30 2017, 19:52

@CptMetal wrote:
@Painjunky wrote:
@Massaen wrote:
Considering the increase in points - rhino is 70+ points, drop pod is 105!

This makes think raiders and venoms will cost a lot more in 8th.

Maybe 100pts for a raider with DL and something cool like shock prow and/or racks.

You were spot on!
Are you a wizard? Shocked

Where are you getting that from?
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Leaked rules   Tue May 30 2017, 20:09

@The Shredder wrote:
@CptMetal wrote:
@Painjunky wrote:
@Massaen wrote:
Considering the increase in points - rhino is 70+ points, drop pod is 105!

This makes think raiders and venoms will cost a lot more in 8th.

Maybe 100pts for a raider with DL and something cool like shock prow and/or racks.

You were spot on!
Are you a wizard? Shocked

Where are you getting that from?

https://17890-presscdn-0-51-pagely.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/New40kChoosingArmyList3.jpg

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/30/new-warhammer-40000-choosing-your-army-may30gw-homepage-post-4/

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Archon_91
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Leaked rules   Tue May 30 2017, 20:24

Well ... The archon got cheaper by far ... But I'm disturbed by the lack of shadow or clone field on him ... It might have been to many points but he might not need them in 8th either ... Also the inclusion of the Phantasm grenade launcher and Voidraven bomber is pretty awesome ... Kabalites are up 2 points a model and so are trueborn ... I wish they woulda done an actual list for 8th instead of one that looks like it might have been netlisted from a 1500 point 6-7th edition list with the ravagers pulled out of the list and given us a look at what a wych unit might have looked like ...
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