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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Transports   Sun May 21 2017, 20:57

I wonder if deep striking a vehicle still counts as having moved it, thus stopping occupants from disembarking now.
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Voidhawk
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Transports   Sun May 21 2017, 21:19

@mynamelegend wrote:
Curious effect of the rule about not being able to disembark after a transport moves: Surrounding a transport completely forbids all disembarking even if it's a skimmer and can move over the units to get away.

We don't know if entry/exit points are still a thing, but if that's the case then with those vehicles it will be even easier to minimize the participation of the passengers: Just park a couple reaver jetbikes by the back of that wave serpent and the guys inside can't do jack for the turn.

A very interesting point. Here's another: will you be able to disembark from a vehicle that's locked in combat? Because falling back definitely counts as movement.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Transports   Sun May 21 2017, 21:32

@BetrayTheWorld wrote:
I wonder if deep striking a vehicle still counts as having moved it, thus stopping occupants from disembarking now.

That is a very good question.

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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Transports   Sun May 21 2017, 22:06

Well. The vehicle can simply fall back after the close combat in the turn you attacked. Right?
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Voidhawk
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Transports   Sun May 21 2017, 22:34

@CptMetal wrote:
Well. The vehicle can simply fall back after the close combat in the turn you attacked. Right?
Yes, but that would count as movement. So the passengers can't disembark on their turn, and then on your turn you can just assault it again.

The more I hear about the new rules, getting/denying the charge seems to be the most tactically important thing.
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Transports   Sun May 21 2017, 22:45

But you moved the previous turn and I'm your turn you may act normally,right?
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Creeping Darkness
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Transports   Sun May 21 2017, 22:57

Presumably Drop Pods will have a special rule allowing the space marines inside to disembark that turn. Any other Deep Striking transports may be out of luck.

@mynamelegend good point - and possibly a good reason not to charge your raiders into assault before the dudes get off. If your opponent elects not to fall back, and instead piles in around your Raider, your Incubi/Grots/Wyches are trapped on board until the enemy kill the T5-6 transport. Then maybe they die too if there's no room to place them...

The 'death on a 1' is classic GW. It's pretty good for our fragile units, but now it's pretty risky to put a character in a transport. Especially as they're separate units... if there's no way to reallocate the wound.

@Voidhawk agree, who gets the charge will be very important. I can see some cat & mouse, especially if both sides have assault units in transports; who wants to sit 13-15" away to be in a good charge position next turn, at the risk of being charged yourself? While still in your transport! Ouch.
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doriii
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Transports   Sun May 21 2017, 23:08

i think you can choose models that die, instead of rolling off model per model (faster better)
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Imateria
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Transports   Mon May 22 2017, 00:35

@BetrayTheWorld wrote:
I wonder if deep striking a vehicle still counts as having moved it, thus stopping occupants from disembarking now.
I expect thats going to be handled on a per model basis, see the Trygons Subterranean Assault special rule which I reckon will work for Drop Pods, but on normal vehicles it could go either way.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Transports   Mon May 22 2017, 02:04

Also.. IDK if this has been said.

But losing models on a 1, what if I rolled a 1 on my Archon :'(

I hope we get to chose there that removed comes from.... or at least Characters can be removed Sad

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Transports   Mon May 22 2017, 03:54

Just thought about this....

Im scared of Land Raider Redeemers now, especially Salamanders
*If they keep the Flamer/Melta rules*

TL-HF's now are 2 shots, with TL-Assault Cannons and the MM

S6 Assault 4D6w Rend -2 (might be 2D6 Rend -2, but also could be Rend -3)
S6 Assault 8 Rend -1
S8 Assault 1-D6w Rend -4

I can see these being strong AF, sense they might be T19-12 with 16-20 wounds (im guessing T10 16 wounds).

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Red Corsair
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Transports   Mon May 22 2017, 04:11

I would not be surprised if occupants of transports destroyed in melee simply pile into attackers and count as being engaged, this removes the clunky effect of worrying whether models are placed within or without of the 1" range of enemies and frankly makes more sense.
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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Transports   Mon May 22 2017, 07:31

This is looking really good for us.

Raiders can hold more than 1 unit now.
3-4 raiders loaded with 2 cheap units each (kabbies, wyches?) move up in the enemies grill.
Raiders shoot.
Passengers split fire shoot.
Raider charges turn 1 causing damage and locking up shooting.

Next turn enemy tries desperately to kill these raiders because he knows what's coming.  Twisted Evil
These raiders demand attention. They absolutely scream "KILL ME NOW BEFORE I KILL YOU".

Meanwhile the rest of your army. Which should be the real heavy hitters have already, or are about to, rip your opponents army to shreds and win you the game.

This is even without the other buffs like DE specific rules and wargear. Shocked
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Transports   Mon May 22 2017, 07:54

The transport rules are largely in favour of the dark kin as i see it. Our vehicles's speed will dictate where and how the battle is played. Of course our paper thin vehicles will be damaged and lost but that is no new news.
Do not forget that our vehicles will probably have fly keyword as Reece hinted it at FLG vlog, so we can engage in combat with enemy after shooting without penalty, then bind them in cmbat to reduce return fire then retreat and shoot again all the while suffering a casualty 1/6 of the time.
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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Transports   Mon May 22 2017, 08:13

Against slower armies the new rules could be an advantage. Against things like eldar jetbikes who are aslo insanely fast we will have trouble catching them since they move further than our foot troops. Anything slower then our foot troops will be fair game.

But the rule interactions between assaulting and leaving a transport will be an important part of how everything plays out for us I think.
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Imateria
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Transports   Mon May 22 2017, 13:33

@Razorfate wrote:
The transport rules are largely in favour of the dark kin as i see it. Our vehicles's speed will dictate where and how the battle is played. Of course our paper thin vehicles will be damaged and lost but that is no new news.
Do not forget that our vehicles will probably have fly keyword as Reece hinted it at FLG vlog, so we can engage in combat with enemy after shooting without penalty, then bind them in cmbat to reduce return fire then retreat and shoot again all the while suffering a casualty 1/6 of the time.
I think people got too hung up on the Fly keyword in that Tau article, it's almost certainly the case that the keyword itself doesn't do anything, it's a keyword after all not a special rule, and that the Tau have an army wide special rule that lets them leave combat and shoot as normal in their turn but only works on units with the Fly keyword (which would be why the Stormsurge needs the Walking Battleship rule).

Maybe we'll get something similar, maybe not.
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RedRegicide
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Transports   Mon May 22 2017, 14:00

@Archon_91 wrote:
Well I was right to guess that our vehicles (if we can take the starweaver stats and copy paste them to the venom before the effects of chain snares) would be great in CC compared to other vehicles and am still seeing this as perfect proof that my vehicle only cc army will still be amazing ... But they didn't really change much when it came to disembarking from the transport it's just now, "get out and charge because we are close enough" or "stay in move the boat and shoot" pretty much what we already did

But ours are transports, so they need units to take them right?

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Archon_91
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Transports   Mon May 22 2017, 20:24

All of this is just reinforcing my idea that an all vehicle assault army for the true kin is going to be nuts (of course I will have units in the vehicles but they will be wyches with pistols to aid the true assault king of the army, the vehicle, in cc) if it doesn't work then I will have had fun anyway
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Kantalla
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Transports   Tue May 23 2017, 05:02

As a little exercise in guessing at Venom survivability, I have been doing some comparative numbers between 7th edition rules and 8th edition rules in terms of how much shooting is required to down a Venom.

Here is the comparison of the number of firings required to destroy a Venom for weapons in 7th / 8th / % difference:

Bolter 27.0 / 54.0 / +100%
Disintegrator 4.1 / 4.5 / +9%
Scatter Laser 2.1 / 6.8 / +218%
Dark Lance 4.7 / 7.3 / +55%
Lascannon 3.9 / 7.3 / +87%

Overall that Venom is looking a bit harder to crack, which should be interesting.

And against a Dreadnought:
Bolter * / 108.0 / *
Disintegrator * / 7.2 / *
Scatter Laser 6.8 / 27.0 / +300%
Dark Lance 8.0 / 6.1 / -24%
Lascannon 5.9 / 7.3 / +23%

The Dread is probably more vulnerable because more things can hurt it. Scatter Lasers are the main weapon going backwards, which seems reasonable to me on the whole.

Some assumptions:
* Venom has T5, W6, Sv 4+/5++ in 8th Edition
* Venom is not Jinking and not in cover
* Dreadnought not in cover
* Disintegrator is S5 AP-3 Dmg2 Heavy 3
* Scatter Laser is S6 AP0 Dmg1 Heavy 4

Some hidden background math results:
* Lascannons / Dark Lances (or any D6 damage weapon) will need 2.15 damage results on average to remove the 6 wounds
* Yet to calculate in detail for 8 wound target, assumed 2.7 damage results required

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Gobsmakked
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Transports   Tue May 23 2017, 05:07

@Painjunky wrote:
This is looking really good for us.

Raiders can hold more than 1 unit now.
3-4 raiders loaded with 2 cheap units each (kabbies, wyches?) move up in the enemies grill.
Raiders shoot.
Passengers split fire shoot.
Raider charges turn 1 causing damage and locking up shooting.

Next turn enemy tries desperately to kill these raiders because he knows what's coming.  Twisted Evil
These raiders demand attention. They absolutely scream "KILL ME NOW BEFORE I KILL YOU".

Meanwhile the rest of your army. Which should be the real heavy hitters have already, or are about to, rip your opponents army to shreds and win you the game.

This is even without the other buffs like DE specific rules and wargear. Shocked


Yeah, pretty much my line of thinking so far. Will have to wait and see, for sure!


@Painjunky wrote:
........ Raiders can hold more than 1 unit now ........

I missed this bit, really?
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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Transports   Tue May 23 2017, 05:13

Yeah, all transports can is my understanding.

Its pretty freakin sweet for us.
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Transports   Tue May 23 2017, 05:28

@Painjunky wrote:
Yeah, all transports can is my understanding.

Its pretty freakin sweet for us.

Suh-weet! Totally missed that. I wonder how many units a Tantalus could carry? *maniacal laugh*
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Transports   Tue May 23 2017, 09:32

@CptMetal wrote:
But you moved the previous turn and I'm your turn you may act normally,right?

You can't fall back at the end of combat, that isn't an option. You can fall back in place of your Movement Phase, though. This is coupled with penalties for that Unit; can't Advance, Shoot or Charge for the remainder of this turn (unless you have "Fly").

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Ikol
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Transports   Tue May 23 2017, 09:34

@Gobsmakked wrote:
@Painjunky wrote:
Yeah, all transports can is my understanding.

Its pretty freakin sweet for us.

Suh-weet!  Totally missed that.  I wonder how many units a Tantalus could carry? *maniacal laugh*

16 separate Lhamaens! It shall be the new Meta!

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Imateria
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Transports   Tue May 23 2017, 11:48

@Ikol wrote:
@CptMetal wrote:
But you moved the previous turn and I'm your turn you may act normally,right?

You can't fall back at the end of combat, that isn't an option.  You can fall back in place of your Movement Phase, though.  This is coupled with penalties for that Unit; can't Advance, Shoot or Charge for the remainder of this turn (unless you have "Fly").
Once again, Fly is not a special rule but a keyword, Tau almost certainly have an army wide special rule that interacts with that keyword to let them act as normal after falling back. I fully expect Fly to be a generic keyword associated with all skimmers, jet bikes, jet pack and jump infantry, I seriously doubt they'll all be able to pull out of combat and act as normal.
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