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Tounguekutter
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Facebook live 40k developer stream part 2   Fri May 19 2017, 00:09

We will become the new OP!!!! Jk I hope that doesn't happen because I feel the resulting nerfs would send us back to 3rd edition. But it will be nice to not feel like the battle was practically determined by our choices of codex, and I think that will be the case. I am not sure how much more or less useful the after damage 6+ save will do but since it is after damage that will mean it is counter-acting Mortal Wounds which is better than an Invulnerable save even if we will only successfully make this roll half as often as before (1/6th vs 1/3rd of the time). Perhaps there will be some way(s) to improve our odds... a stratagem perhaps?

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Facebook live 40k developer stream part 2   Fri May 19 2017, 00:16

Or the presence of Haemonculus Coven Units? Pain for Pain, I think they generate the most misery.

If that's the case, Cronos would be the optimal candidates for a +1, and perhaps Haemonculi could dish out the same.

And no, I don't think we'll be "THE NEW OP!!!" But a more even playing field could be fun... To quote a digital acquaintance: 4th dimensional Wizard Chess, here we come!

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Facebook live 40k developer stream part 2   Fri May 19 2017, 00:37

lament.config wrote:
I'm really looking forward to coven's info. If nothing else it's good to see PfP is sticking around though I hope it can ramp up or be improved beyond a 6++ after other saves.

Yeah 6++ FNP is meh. Needs to be 5++ like now.
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Facebook live 40k developer stream part 2   Fri May 19 2017, 01:28

Cronos with spirit probes plus a combo of homunculi will be deadly this next edition IMO. especially with covens
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Facebook live 40k developer stream part 2   Fri May 19 2017, 01:48

It's like they're actively trying to make the most boring game possible.

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Facebook live 40k developer stream part 2   Fri May 19 2017, 01:51

We're going to be so overpowered other factions won't even have a response except for like a small handful. I mean 7th edition CWE levels of overpowered.

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Facebook live 40k developer stream part 2   Fri May 19 2017, 01:59

Improving PfP through haemonculi or just being Wracks/Grotesques would be fluffy and not at all gamebreaking, as all they're getting is a reasonable Invuln. save that's actually Invuln. Which is fine because they are supposed to be tough.

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I love 8th edition, and I love Dark Eldar in 8th, but I still can't wait for fluffy Kabal rules to drop in our dex.  I have written multiple Dark Eldar fan codexes (3 and a "mini-fandex" which was totally ridiculous), the latest of which (for 7th edition) can be found here.  I also created a Blood Angels 7th edition fan codex for 7th (and I'm taking ideas for a Blood Angels chapter trait to fan-rule in while my girlfriend and I wait for a full codex), and I have used the Age of Sigmar Kharadron Overlords battletome to create a 40k squat army codex complete with a bunch of Stratagems.
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Facebook live 40k developer stream part 2   Fri May 19 2017, 02:05

@TeenageAngst I hear what you say about boring, which I am assuming is a complaint stemming from the fact that the game is being simplified, yes? If so then I do share your worry, however, if big army wides like Poisoned shooting and PfP are kept in game that is enough differentiation for my taste, however I could see it being insufficient in another's eyes. It will be after all simplification. However, I think Stratagems will also add flavor to armies and I am optimistic that units will be getting more individualized rules rather than benefiting from one or more USRs. Just my opinions and speculations though.

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I love 8th edition, and I love Dark Eldar in 8th, but I still can't wait for fluffy Kabal rules to drop in our dex.  I have written multiple Dark Eldar fan codexes (3 and a "mini-fandex" which was totally ridiculous), the latest of which (for 7th edition) can be found here.  I also created a Blood Angels 7th edition fan codex for 7th (and I'm taking ideas for a Blood Angels chapter trait to fan-rule in while my girlfriend and I wait for a full codex), and I have used the Age of Sigmar Kharadron Overlords battletome to create a 40k squat army codex complete with a bunch of Stratagems.
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Facebook live 40k developer stream part 2   Fri May 19 2017, 02:10

Quote :
however, if big army wides like Poisoned shooting and PfP are kept in game that is enough differentiation for my taste, however I could see it being insufficient in another's eyes. It will be after all simplification. However, I think Stratagems will also add flavor to armies and I am optimistic that units will be getting more individualized rules rather than benefiting from one or more USRs. Just my opinions and speculations though.

Those are all things from AoS.

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Facebook live 40k developer stream part 2   Fri May 19 2017, 05:22

TeenageAngst wrote:
Those are all things from AoS.

Very true, however, what little I know of AoS (admittedly I have never played an actual game myself even though I own the General's handbook and the Sylvaneth battletome) I like. And even if I end up not liking AoS as an overall system, the fact that elements are drawn from the system does not guarantee that they will be executed as poorly, because there may be other factors in 40k which mitigate things disliked in AoS. For example I don't believe that in AoS there are any universal bonuses whatsoever for charging, whereas in 40k there will be. That might make the difference. I don't know, but in addition to the fact that what the game will be like is largely (not completely, because some of the parallels are indeed obvious) speculation, I think there will also be an element of taste. You and I may form completely different opinions on 8th edition as a whole and that's ok. I'd even go so far as to say that that is to be expected. Naturally, I wish you maximum happiness in all your hobbies and their aspects. Smile

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I love 8th edition, and I love Dark Eldar in 8th, but I still can't wait for fluffy Kabal rules to drop in our dex.  I have written multiple Dark Eldar fan codexes (3 and a "mini-fandex" which was totally ridiculous), the latest of which (for 7th edition) can be found here.  I also created a Blood Angels 7th edition fan codex for 7th (and I'm taking ideas for a Blood Angels chapter trait to fan-rule in while my girlfriend and I wait for a full codex), and I have used the Age of Sigmar Kharadron Overlords battletome to create a 40k squat army codex complete with a bunch of Stratagems.
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Facebook live 40k developer stream part 2   Fri May 19 2017, 05:57

AoS is a dull, sterilized game system with the depth of a spoon. I play High AELFS and I recently freegan'd 2 Frostfire Phoenixes to support them. These things are basically buff machines that crank out stacking defensive auras while casting defensive spells. My entire strategy, every game, is to stick them behind a line of Spearmen with ranged infantry behind them, and wait. The electric football board turns on, the enemy charges, they kill a few Spearmen, they get shot to death, and the entire process repeats. I literally win games by not moving and just shooting things that come close, because my units are even harder to kill at a range than they are in close combat. This is the level of tactical genius this game operates at, and now this will be 40k.

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Facebook live 40k developer stream part 2   Fri May 19 2017, 06:47

I think that 40k units inherently has way more moving in them.Lots of transports, everyone have them, flying units, actual jets, drop pods... While AoS is primarily from Fantasy, where moving blocks of units and area denial is the key.

Said example in 40k would probably meet some drop pod on the back of formation and this buffing unit would be gone.

Most of the tactics is happening in the movement phase and 40k one is way more rich then AoS.

One change i dont really like is return of old wound allocation. That was always stupid and now its back. With same stuff - hidden powerfists, undying flamers. That really is stupidification.

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Facebook live 40k developer stream part 2   Fri May 19 2017, 06:53

AoS is as divorced from Fantasy as I am from my ex-wife. Also there is no back of the unit, the back is a board edge. Considering the drop pod would need to stay 9" away at all times that's easily denied. I have no doubt that with things like fortifications (if they still work the same) and AoS style buff auras there will be turtle lists galore.

Anyway the point wasn't that sitting still and firing with buffs is going to win 40k now. It's that braindead strategies in a wash-rinse-repeat playstyle will win 40k, because that's all the ruleset can accommodate.

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Facebook live 40k developer stream part 2   Fri May 19 2017, 06:57

So you're afraid that 40k will become as much in favor for a gun line as Sigmar?
Don't worry, there will be enough different missions where you need to move to win. And if you were afraid of that even now the Tau kind of resemble your elves.
And now we can charge from our ultra fast transport vehicles. Throw him a bunch of grotesques and Sslyth in his face.
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Facebook live 40k developer stream part 2   Fri May 19 2017, 07:29

Quote :
So you're afraid that 40k will become as much in favor for a gun line as Sigmar?

No I'm afraid braindead strategies will win over and over again. For Ironjawz it's "charge turn 1 with the boars and follow up with the heavy hitters and use your buffs." Every. Single. Game. For my AELFS it's "sit behind some spearmen and shoot anything that gets close." Every. Single. Game.

I mean say what you will about spiders and scatbikes, at least they were DYNAMIC. You had to *constantly* move them over and over again to new positions, constantly keep distances in mind, check line of sight, gamble on random movement rolls, keep like 5 different rules going on in your head as you did so, you could not run that army if you were asleep at the switch. Sure, it was stupidly powerful, but if you ran it wrong you were dead. 8th edition will be nothing like that. The game will be stupidly simple, so simple it will detract not only from the flavor and playstyle of different armies but from the fun of the game as a whole. You can't devise grand strategies of maneuvering and defense and such in AoS, you just roll dice and move mice. It's tactically lobotomized.

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Facebook live 40k developer stream part 2   Fri May 19 2017, 08:15

Well, knowing the strategies will not lend any help to those strategies. Any static system is deemed to fail, because of all known parameters sooner or later there is method to fighting it.

Your mates should think harder how to break yours.

Its the undefendable strategies that break games. Are they really so in AoS, or have noone just found the right answer?

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Facebook live 40k developer stream part 2   Fri May 19 2017, 09:13

TeenageAngst wrote:
No I'm afraid braindead strategies will win over and over again. For Ironjawz it's "charge turn 1 with the boars and follow up with the heavy hitters and use your buffs." Every. Single. Game. For my AELFS it's "sit behind some spearmen and shoot anything that gets close." Every. Single. Game.

Okay, so what happens when Ironjawz charge their boars into your spearmen on turn one?

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Facebook live 40k developer stream part 2   Fri May 19 2017, 09:21

@ teenageangst, Yes I understand your problem, I fear to some extent the same thing.
But it used to be more or less the same. Sure scatbikes were dynamic: but the tactic was always the same: move from behind cover shoot something, get back behind cover.

I think 40k always had this to some extent. Since most units could just move where they wanted, there were so many flying hovering etc units that even terrain was hardly a real limitation anymore. Sure tanks had a rear with lower av, but normal units did not.
I think if one unit can so easily determine the whole game and as Azdrubael said there should be a counter. if it is not, then we get the same situation as with deathstars, where sure there were more rules, and they might be harder to make on paper, I found that once you knew how they worked they were quite easy to play with and used the same tactics all the time.
Sure with more rules you might get more options, but generally 1 option was superior to others anyway so you only saw a few options getting used. I am not saying you are wrong Teenageangst, hell I don't play AoS since the loss of unit blocks took away from the tactical aspect why I played warhammer in the first place. After a sound win I often switched armies with one of my regular opponents, just to show how things could be countered, that this often let me win again. This shows that even with him having seen the tactics it is not as easy to do it as it seems. And he also starts to realize the inherent flaws of those units and thus becomes better able to beat it next time. Sure this was mostly warhammer, after AoS it became kings of war, where sides and rear matter a lot.
But I think it does show that tactics are in a balanced game more important than army selection, even if the army selection is still important.
Next to that I think there are enough tactical games that can be very tactical and have 1 or a few page of rules (chess hive pocket etc). The fact that you can calculate the rough numbers better now might make it less tactical because there are fewer outlyers to take into account, on the other hand chess has no randomness and it is still one of the more tactical games in my opinion. Randomness usually is seen as a deviation from tactics.
Sure I also want more deviation and more rules in wargames then i long for in chess, but that does not necessary make it a less tactical game. Right now it feels a lot more like army selection determined who won. If everything is equal then the tactics should determine who wins. And as you mentioned you can calculate beforehand who wins, this means that something is not balanced right in my opinion. And with more rules that would not change, it would just make the calculations harder.
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Facebook live 40k developer stream part 2   Fri May 19 2017, 12:01

On the topic on whether we are getting Vect back. Seems GW are liking the Triumvirate sets. Could this mean that each faction gets a new set? If Dark Eldar were to get a new set then who would make up the Triumvirate?

Vect?
Lelith Hesperax?
Drazhar?
Urien Rakarth?
Kheradruakh?
Sliscus?

If they based it on which model needs updating then Drazhar and Vect are a must do you think? Kheradruakh must be a major player since recent goings on.
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Facebook live 40k developer stream part 2   Fri May 19 2017, 12:24

Jeah I have my hopes up that there might come some Kheraduakh model I would love it.

Vect seems to make sense.

Drazhar might be since he was mentioned specifically in the rules leak.
Lelith still has quite a good model so maybe not.
I would love Sliscus, but he seems to much a small fry for now unless they come with some new lore.

Urien would also be a good option.

But it depends on how they will tell the story. Kheradruakh is more for inside commorragh against the demons, while Urien might be more against the ynnari. So I doubt they will be part of the same set. Vect goes well with both.

If they will make them like a triumverate at all.
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Facebook live 40k developer stream part 2   Fri May 19 2017, 12:40

I would expect Vect, Drazhar and Kheradruakh.

As you mentioned Lelith has a perfectly good model as it is. The model for Urien is OK, but I have to admit I prefer the standard Haemonculus model to his.

Agreed Sliscus is not famous enough but then was Grand Master Voldus known to anyone before he was released?

People might shoot me down for this but I wouldn't mind seeing Vect sacked off and replaced with a new character.
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Facebook live 40k developer stream part 2   Fri May 19 2017, 12:44

Consolidate into combat could be very powerful for us with our ability to hold other units there.
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Facebook live 40k developer stream part 2   Fri May 19 2017, 14:55

I dont think we will get a Triumvirate set again.

That doesnt mean DE wont get more models, i just feel that those were a last 7th ed push.

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Facebook live 40k developer stream part 2   Fri May 19 2017, 15:28

Do you not think? I had heard they are looking at releasing a Chaos triumvirate with Abaddon, Urkrathos and a 3rd character than is possibly unknown to us at this moment in time.
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Facebook live 40k developer stream part 2   Fri May 19 2017, 17:59

I'm actually pretty concerned about this simplification myself. 6th an 7th edition had plenty of variation, and an extremely broad range of army/unit combinations to use, in addition to what sounds like much more depth in the actual core rules, making each game pretty unique.

I'm not seeing that so far in what they've told us. It sounds WAY oversimplified, and I don't want to play a basic dice game. If I did, I could have saved myself thousands of dollars in models and supplies.

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