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JonTheArchon
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Drukhari   Wed May 17 2017, 21:40

@Sarkesian wrote:
I'll agree that it is lateral against vehicles now due to more wounds. But against MC (tyranids) or even Grotesques, they are significantly better. Once tanks were dead you could deal 1 wound per DL. Now I can kill a grotesque with 1 DL instead of 3. They have much more utility now.

Honestly I had not thought of it this way, I had only thought against vehicles. You are correct after it deals with any vehicles it will now still have a use with the ability to take out multiple wound models.
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Marrath
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Drukhari   Wed May 17 2017, 21:54

Yes we know very little at the moment, so it's impossible to tell.
Could go either way, if we get ridiculous good movement stats that'd be awesome.

Edit: Fast Skimmers shooting at full ballistic skill after moving seems to point in that direction./end edit

But 7th edition never forget.

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Drukhari   Wed May 17 2017, 22:07

@BetrayTheWorld wrote:
How did they buff our dark lances? The 1d6 damage? Who cares? It's now S8 and he mentioned nothing of the "lance" special rule, meaning that dark lances have a harder time WOUNDING things to begin with, where they used to wound AV13+ as if it were only AV12. That extra damage isn't even the equivalent of our current ability to explode things with lances on a 6, since most things we previously could have exploded will now have more than 6 wounds.

OK, I get where you are coming from. However, our Dark Lances were always Strength 8 and our AP was 2 which is now "rend" -3. So it looks like the lance rule increase "rend" by one giving us the same as AP1 weapons. The -4 also means vehicles with no cover and 3+ saves like the Leman Russ or the Morkanaught get no saves against us. As a side thought not knowing what the dirty D becomes we might have the only "rend" -5 weapon. The Heat Lance was melta already -4 and its lance another -1.

@BetrayTheWorld wrote:
And as for the lack of information: With their previous track record of highlighting some pretty awesome stuff for the other factions, then giving us lackluster info for DE, I think it's pretty safe to infer that there simply was not a lot of upside to highlight for DE. THAT is where the negativity is coming from. They broke from a set pattern of announcing cool stuff to announce some very "meh" stuff in an overly optimistic way.

The articles are not written by GW, now I agree that GW who edits them, could have put in a Data sheet or something. The FLG guys were told to write fluff pieces to get people excited but not to include any rules, that's why the first one chaos had nothing really in it. Then GW said you can include little nuggets. If its in the text FLG probably wrote it, if its a stat-block GW probably edited in. However this is what Frankie is excited about and wanted to share within the guidelines given to him buy GW. He seems to love his Incubi and seems really stoke how they play that is why they are in the article.
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Drukhari   Wed May 17 2017, 22:10

Honestly I don't think we got anymore or any less then Guard, Daemons, and, dare I say, Eldar, Speeehhsss mehrineseseses got more simply due to being the poster children of GW, that will never change, I haven't seen anything from the space Marines previews that make me think they are any more of a threat to my army then they already were, but I am seeing ways that wyches are better at killing them then they are right now ... Incubi will now be used a heck of a lot more in my army with Drahzar, a character I always wanted to use but could never justify, and the ravager has just gotten a hell of a lot better at doing the job I used it for already which was big game hunter, either load out will tear monsterous creatures and vehicles a new one, and we still have to see what else we can do because as was mentioned we have "dirty tricks" which means more then just the "no escape" rule which has a 60% chance (without buffs) at keeping opposing infantry from running away from the combat, and that is something NO OTHER ARMY can do that we know of. So I'm leaning to the positive side of things, I do see the negative side too and understand why there is so much of it, and we will not know for another week and a half or so which side will have the right to say "see? This is what we were talking about", personally I'll keep playing Dark Eldar whether or not they stay this bad, get worse, or they suddenly become top tier
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Drukhari   Wed May 17 2017, 22:12

I'll just be happy if our HQ are useful in 8ed and not just a tax to pay. God how much I hated when lamheas where the most viable HQ for us! Please make archons something to fear again! (fingers crossed)
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Drukhari   Wed May 17 2017, 22:22

Regarding Lances: Sure, old lance rule might've been strong against high AV tanks, but our lances SUCKED major balls against anything that's av 11 or 12 (rhinos and chimeras for example) - slim chance of blowing the target up, and low shotcount. Now that the lances have been changed (together with how vehicles work), killing a rhino or chimera with 1 or 2 shots is most likely going to be easier than it used to be (and our lances can chunk down monstrous creatures). And i've played a lot of games against astra militarum mechanized companies, so yeah. the russes were never a big problem to kill (other than having something surviving the firepower of 2 executioners with pask and sponsons), the chimeras, hellhounds and wyverns were if i didn't flank them with disintegrator cannons. And remember, haywire hasn't been revealed yet, another reliable source of Anti-Armour in our dex (if we field scourges).
To summarize: I see it as a buff. Could've been better or more reliable - e.g. 2d3 instead of 1d6 damage - but a buff nonetheless.

Regarding Incubi: Disappointed with the klaivex. very disappointed. Seems our Incubi remained relatively unchanged, and the klaivex, which was our answer to MEQ squads (rampage!), got delegated to being a second-rate multi-wound model killer. emphasis on second-rate. However, due to the changes in the AP system, our incubi received a minor buff. so that's... nice? And the to-wound roll modification from 7th is also going to be helpful.

Regarding wyches: The changes itself mentioned in the article are somewhat lackluster, but the real buff for them will be the new to-wound system (and the ability to retain an armor save against boltguns and equivalent). So, the edition itself, not the codex specific entry, will make them a lot more durable and useful, and increases their damage output against T5 (space marine bikes and T-wolf cav, looking at you!), and they can chip away at vehicles even. The "No Escape" ability? Welllll... compared to 7th ed close combat rules, it's... crap?, but in 8th ed it might make the difference in very specific cases. overall probably not that good, but time will tell.

Regarding vehicles: They're faster. or so they say. Nothing to say here because we got next to no info on that. However, it's nice to know that boltguns can still shoot our paper-ships down.

Regarding AP, wound roll and Armour save changes: This is probably the part that benefits us the most. While before, any foot-sloggers we fielded would die to even the tiniest scratch (grotesques excepted, of course), now we actually have a chance of surviving if caught out in the open. The newest edition seems incredibly generous to light infantry in general. Our Grotesques on the other hand, if their current statline is any indication of what to expect from them in 8th, will suffer heavily. Good thing the majority of casual Dark Eldar players weren't bothering with them anyways, i guess? (at least at my GW store i was the only one to ever field them) (Also R.I.P. Talos and Cronos i'm guessing)
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Drukhari   Wed May 17 2017, 22:28

Actually now i wonder how good a Raider full of Wyches will really be.

Also the "fly" keyword was mentioned in the T'au one, could come in handy for scourges.
I mean they do fly, no?
Dark Lance Scourges Viable?
The possibilities...

And YES to better HQs!
Bring back or replace Malys, Kheradruakh, Sliscus, Sathonyx and VECT!!!
And usable please.

I get the slight vibe that they want to encourage diversity, and really hope they do.

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Drukhari   Wed May 17 2017, 22:45

I hardly had the Lance rule do anything. It was only really beneficial on AV14, as on AV13 it's basically just a Lascannon. While fitting as concept, the Lance rule just doesn't synergize well with a fast faction that can (read "should be able to") shoot tanks from different angles.

A strong competitor with the Lance was always the Lascannon, and compared to that we have even better AP now. And since you only wound on a 2+ if you have double the strenght, it really doesnt matter if you shoot with a Lance or a Las (unless shooting at T8 or T9).

Couple that with the fact that the Ravager is much faster and fires 3D6, as well as much more user-friendly heavy-weapons on infantry. I do see this as a great increase in utility.

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Drukhari   Wed May 17 2017, 22:46

Seems like venom spam and dissie ravagers will be really good.
Venoms for sheer volume of fire, and dissies because 2 damage per shot? Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Drukhari   Wed May 17 2017, 22:49

@Logan Frost wrote:
I keep reading poison affects vehicles, but I don't see it anywhere.
We can wound vehicles due to the new s/t table on a flat 6.

Because it is never expressly stated.  It says that Venoms have "at least a change to hurt even resilient vehicles on a 6 to wound."  Venom having only poisoned shooting  implies poison can hurt vehicles.  

The statement can be true if the poison rule is eliminated and splinter weapons reduced to their original S3 and S4 (for the cannons). The word poison does not even appear after the phrase "in the new Warhammer 40,000[.]" 

I assume that the focus on wyches, incubi dissys and darklances as all being a distraction over how poison weapons work (if they still exist).  

My addition comments,

Without more on the general rules seems mostly status quo-  Dissys improve, assuming the strength stays the same; "lance" is apparently worth one extra ap over the lascannon bodes well for the heatlance.  

Wyches are only half as effective as tar paper-- less so with limitation to infantry.  Trap a Demon prince in cc?-probably not.  Also not effective against the tau sniper drones as we just saw that they are not infantry.   Granted -1ap for wyche weapons is spiffy.
--I note that it only mentions hydra gauntlets and razor flails in that description so maybe shard net and impaler has a different effect like adding +1 to the no escape rule.  

Though some really good news in in the representation that you can still shoot out from "Open Topped" when combined with the everything can split fire... Trueborn how we love them.
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Drukhari   Wed May 17 2017, 23:16

I might have missed this earlier but listening to Reece at 2:20 he states that 2 damage forces the opponent to take two saves to survive.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=USc1tq-PKuE
Looking at Dissies

Rewatching the video... taking two saves may be against their new feel no pain mechanic
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Drukhari   Wed May 17 2017, 23:24

@BizarreShowbiz wrote:




Me too.

If these are the big buffs that Frankie thought worthy of mentioning we are utterly screwed.

In regards to wyches...
"Their hydra gauntlets and razorflails are fantastic, giving their attacks -1 AP."
-1 AP in CC on just 2 weapons is "fantastic" how?

"But their real talent is in the No Escape special rule."
Their "real talent" is a random chance of doing something that they ALWAYS did in 7th???

Neutral scratch Rolling Eyes
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Drukhari   Wed May 17 2017, 23:32

You guys are funny.

edit since I feel I need to expand upon this since not even BetrayTheWorld can see what I'm getting at: These articles are not to highlight good changes. Just the opposite. They are meant to distract you from nerfs. The Tee-apostrophe-au lost jump-shoot-jump, lost ignores cover, lost riptide wing, etc. Daemons lost summoning, lost psychic domination, lost screamer star, lost everything that made them work. Eldar lost psychic phase lockdown, lost their undercosted gargantuan creature, and lost scatbikes being the kings of damage. What did we lose? Poison and Power from Pain.

The new to-wound rolls mean that loss of poison is a wash, we can wound everything but wound specific things slightly worse. The loss of Power from Pain, while a complete blow to our fluff, is frankly not even going to be felt this edition. What we gained however is immense. Anyone worried about our performance on the tabletop hasn't read between the lines.

Edit 2: I love how my topic complaining about actual things that happened in the printed literature got locked for "handwringing and baseless speculation" but a topic where literally the entire forum except for me and like 2 people are doing nothing but handwringing and baseless speculation on a 5 minute article is entirely valid. Carry on, gents.

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Drukhari   Wed May 17 2017, 23:51

AP is the new Negates Cover, do not underestimate the new dark lances and dissies. Forget venom spam, bringing Raiders too is now a thing. Also, three disintegrators on a ravager (9 shots S5 ap-3 D2) wounding dreadnoughts (T7) on 5+? Nice, almost 4/8 wounds without cover.  Who shares AVs with dreads?  Lances are better still against those.

You know which vehicles cannot be dead in one-shot? All of them. Well, unless they get equal or less than 6W. Venoms and speeders?

Edit: if I seem to ignore offtopic discussions, it's intended.

Edit2: Reecius said FnP is after normal save, but also after Damage. So you must save every wound caused by a multiple damage weapon.

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Drukhari   Thu May 18 2017, 00:19

Flat 2 damage on disintegrators? Hello, Primaris marines.

Dark Lance now better than a lascannon in more instances than vice-versa? What is this universe, and how did I get here?

Wyches can trump the whole running out of combat thing? Nice - charge two different units with your real combat units, then charge both with a unit of Wyches. Fun times for all.

The rules so far seem to imply that non-Walker vehicles can charge - if so that is our secret sauce for dodging overwatch. Charge with the wyche's raider first, soak overwatch, then send in the Wyches. I can roll with that.

5+ invulnerable on our skimmers? I'm guessing this replaces Jink. Can't say I'm sad to see it go. More shooting for us, and hopefully more dead bikes etc on the other side.

Blistering speed? I'll take it! Where do I sign up?

I'm not too fussed if there's no power from pain army-wide mechanic. I imagine haemy's will have aura buffs to give something similar, and maybe other characters (or the Cronos) too. I don't mind waiting until our 8ed codex for something more properly thought out.
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Drukhari   Thu May 18 2017, 00:26

What he writes is... Mixed.
The vehicles being fast and able to shoot without penalty is great.
Incubbi seem.. Not improved. Witches don't seem to have improved either. Only more versatile because of that rule but not more killing stuff.

Poison. Poison. Where is our poison?

After all, I'm still optimistic. But only because he tested them and as a dark Eldar player he knows our struggles.

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Drukhari   Thu May 18 2017, 00:33

Never trust a west coast tourney player, they don't play 40k. Idk what they do play but it ain't 40k
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Drukhari   Thu May 18 2017, 00:38

Quote :
What I want is Raiders flying around with guys shooting poisoned needles out of the back.

It's implied poison is still a thing, and the fact Power From Pain is not mentioned in the article does not mean it went the way of the dodo.
And they shall not no fear is never been mentioned ether, yet is present in the Primaris dataslate.

I'm still cautiously optimistic, but we have to wait for the full release yet.
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Drukhari   Thu May 18 2017, 00:40

@TeenageAngst wrote:

edit since I feel I need to expand upon this since not even BetrayTheWorld can see what I'm getting at: These articles are not to highlight good changes. Just the opposite. They are meant to distract you from nerfs. The Tee-apostrophe-au lost jump-shoot-jump, lost ignores cover, lost riptide wing, etc. Daemons lost summoning, lost psychic domination, lost screamer star, lost everything that made them work. Eldar lost psychic phase lockdown, lost their undercosted gargantuan creature, and lost scatbikes being the kings of damage. What did we lose? Poison and Power from Pain.

Dismantling of the current tournament-meta. I agree that every other army lost a lot, even space marines. Their Primaris Marines are only a consolation prize, if even that, considering the new AP and to-wound rolls really hurts them (before, heavy bolters and their equivalent were about as harmful as regular boltguns to their save, now any kind of AP- will increase their casualties, even against TEQ).

@TeenageAngst wrote:

The new to-wound rolls mean that loss of poison is a wash, we can wound everything but wound specific things slightly worse. The loss of Power from Pain, while a complete blow to our fluff, is frankly not even going to be felt this edition. What we gained however is immense. Anyone worried about our performance on the tabletop hasn't read between the lines.

Again, agreed on that spot. individual units may have been nerfed on the DE side of things, but that doesn't outweigh the fact that DE are one of the armies benefiting the most from the new AP/To-wound system. Way more than SM, CSM, Necrons, CE and Tau. Nids will probably have gained the most though. They needed it too.
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Drukhari   Thu May 18 2017, 01:13

@Creeping Darkness wrote:
Flat 2 damage on disintegrators? Hello, Primaris marines.

Dark Lance now better than a lascannon in more instances than vice-versa? What is this universe, and how did I get here?

Wyches can trump the whole running out of combat thing? Nice - charge two different units with your real combat units, then charge both with a unit of Wyches. Fun times for all.

The rules so far seem to imply that non-Walker vehicles can charge - if so that is our secret sauce for dodging overwatch. Charge with the wyche's raider first, soak overwatch, then send in the Wyches. I can roll with that.

5+ invulnerable on our skimmers? I'm guessing this replaces Jink. Can't say I'm sad to see it go. More shooting for us, and hopefully more dead bikes etc on the other side.

Blistering speed? I'll take it! Where do I sign up?

I'm not too fussed if there's no power from pain army-wide mechanic. I imagine haemy's will have aura buffs to give something similar, and maybe other characters (or the Cronos) too. I don't mind waiting until our 8ed codex for something more properly thought out.

Agreed, CD, there are a lot of positives that could be taken from this brief preview. And yes, absolutely, we have no idea what the covens might lend us yet, either.

I don't think anyone can comment decisively one way or the other until we have the new rules and codex-thingy in hand, so there is not much point in getting bent out of shape until the actual release.
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Drukhari   Thu May 18 2017, 01:13

"Wyches will be seen in greater numbers too. Honestly, this might be one of the top 3 most improved units in all of the new edition!"

This is quite a bold statement. I can't believe he said that only because of "no escape".

The new S/T table is quite interesting for a S3T3 army. I'm glad now my reavers and wyches are able to wound T5 bikers on 5+ without needing furious charge.

Edit:
Dissies were awesome against the right target. Now they can also wound T9 on 5+, and the new AP works against cover (if I undertstand the rule correctly). I expect a price increase


Last edited by Mononcule on Thu May 18 2017, 01:37; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Drukhari   Thu May 18 2017, 01:34

@TeenageAngst wrote:
You guys are funny.

edit since I feel I need to expand upon this since not even BetrayTheWorld can see what I'm getting at: These articles are not to highlight good changes. Just the opposite. They are meant to distract you from nerfs. The Tee-apostrophe-au lost jump-shoot-jump, lost ignores cover, lost riptide wing, etc. Daemons lost summoning, lost psychic domination, lost screamer star, lost everything that made them work. Eldar lost psychic phase lockdown, lost their undercosted gargantuan creature, and lost scatbikes being the kings of damage. What did we lose? Poison and Power from Pain.

The new to-wound rolls mean that loss of poison is a wash, we can wound everything but wound specific things slightly worse. The loss of Power from Pain, while a complete blow to our fluff, is frankly not even going to be felt this edition. What we gained however is immense. Anyone worried about our performance on the tabletop hasn't read between the lines.

Edit 2: I love how my topic complaining about actual things that happened in the printed literature got locked for "handwringing and baseless speculation" but a topic where literally the entire forum except for me and like 2 people are doing nothing but handwringing and baseless speculation on a 5 minute article is entirely valid. Carry on, gents.

I kinda disagree about this. I understand what you are saying, but with what we have in hand, we can't conclude anything about poison weapons and feel no pain. As others have stated, he probably had very strict directive on what he is allowed to say. Those texts are merely teasers. They will probably reveal more stuff on a second or third round of articles, closer to the release. That's why a lot of good stuff are not mentionned. They want to keep the big hype for when they will release the game.
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Drukhari   Thu May 18 2017, 02:12

If I am correct the full datasheet has not been released for the wyches. I think we should wait for the datasheets before casting judgement upon the full scope of the improvements. My only concern is with many weapons switching over to multiple wound taking our coven units are going to be collecting dust on the shelves if there stats are still in line with 7th edition. I will continue running heavy coven lists nonetheless.
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Drukhari   Thu May 18 2017, 02:21

Ossefactors could inflict more than 1 wound easily Smile

And there is a chance they correct the liquifier useless nerf
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Drukhari   Thu May 18 2017, 02:21

@TeenageAngst wrote:
Never trust a west coast tourney player, they don't play 40k. Idk what they do play but it ain't 40k

I take umbrage to that.  Although I'm inclined to forgive solely on the basis that you've given me an opportunity to use that word.  

-4ap dark lances with ap now working to reduce cover; S3 being able to wound t7 or better; loss of OP formations with free transports; no more razor wings that decide not to join the fight due to temperamental reserve dice ... there is enough for me to be cautiously optimistic.
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