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 8e - Drukhari

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krayd
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Drukhari   Wed May 17 2017, 19:01

@The Strange Dark One wrote:
@Cavash wrote:
There are a lot of holes in our knowledge. I am pleased for the bits that are making gunboats sound like floating carnage as I was an avid gunboat player in 5th.

I think the most interesting question is how they will handle Kabalites and our poison as a whole. As most shooting will hit on a 5+ at worst, a flat 4+ just isn't what it used to be.

If anything, that would feel only more akin to a Bolter that is handled on a T3 model with paper armour.

Flat 4+ will be as good as it is right now - A help when shooting at higher T things, and a hindrance when shooting at low T things... though, seeing as how splinter rifles used to be S3, this is still better overall. It will still make us a pretty hard counter to any army utilizing lots of monstrous creatures... though I am kinda expecting poison to have a toughness threshold, assuming that it still gives a flat 4+ to wound, rather than doing something else entirely.
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nerdelemental
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Drukhari   Wed May 17 2017, 19:04

All I heard was "blah, blah, blah, blisteringly fast, blah, blah..."
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AngelicPerversion
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Drukhari   Wed May 17 2017, 19:05

I am very happy to see the buff to the ravagers. I am also willing to wager that scourges have repaed the benefits of the buffed dark lances as well. I am still anxiously awaiting to see my coven units and if they still will have some semblance of power from pain. I actually loved the mechanics from the supplement.
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krayd
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Drukhari   Wed May 17 2017, 19:06

@mynamelegend wrote:
Everyone who's happy about wyches, keep in mind that pistols can be fired in the Shooting phase when you're in close combat, and Dodge still only works in the Fight phase. Even if we somehow forget how horrifying flamer overwatch is, anything with Bolt Pistols will tear wyches apart. (Here's a prediction based on the available data: Bolt pistols will still hurt wyches way, way more than splinter pistols hurt Space Marines)

I'm willing to bet that the dodge will apply during any time that wyches are locked in close combat, and that Frankie just poorly worded his statement (besides, he didn't say *only* the fighting phase, technically speaking). But we'll have to see.
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Drukhari   Wed May 17 2017, 19:25

Ok, so despite the enthusiastic language Frankie used in this article, nothing he said sounds that amazing. I'd think that if wyches moved 8 inches instead of 6, he'd have mentioned that. There are so many things you'd expect him to mention if they were positive that he simply did not. -1 AP on razorflails and hydra gauntlets is NOT "fantastic". It's meh.

Let's all breath for a moment, and understand what kind of company GW is. They're NOT stupid. Bringing the guys from FLG in to playtest and advise was a calculated move, and I'm sure there were at least these 2 rules in their contract:

1. You are not allowed to release any information we don't specifically tell you that you can release.
and
2. You may not say anything negative about our rules or development prior to it's release.

These are pretty standard things to put into a non-disclosure agreement, which I can say with 99.9999% certainty that they have signed. So while they may have SOME influence in rules development, they are not allowed to "stir the pot" of public opinion against things they feel are negative prior to the release of said content.

They're also almost certainly being paid by Games Workshop.

So, back to the issue: Frankie's article can be summed up in a single Shakespearean phrase:

"Much ado about nothing."

It doesn't sound to me like there was much positive to say about DE, so Frankie had to make an article that SOUNDED positive, using the scant, lackluster rules that he COULD spin as positive.
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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Drukhari   Wed May 17 2017, 19:46

I didn't see anything about power from pain. Looks like Dark Eldar are gonna be the 3 color tournament winners for me because their fluff just went out the window.

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Sarkesian
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Drukhari   Wed May 17 2017, 20:03

I feel that power from pain or combat drugs will be our replacement for the psyker phase. Can't wait to see what rules they have for those.

I'm quite baffled at the negativity that's being shown in here. They just buffed our dark lances significantly! And ravagers not getting a minus to shooting heavy weapons and moving is another buff that this community has been asking for. I'm glad we are getting attention as a faction and it is looking positive to me.

We don't know everything yet, but it is better than what I was expecting. I feel more like a cannon now from this little blurb.

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AngelicPerversion
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Drukhari   Wed May 17 2017, 20:13

I agree that the negative comments are a bit surprising let face it though we are a community of dark eldar players we are all playing with are backs against the wall at whatever games workshop or hobby shop we play in. If anything we should be used to turning water into wine at this point lol. I think we are jumping the gun on negative feedback and lets wait till the rest of the rules drop. I also remember wuches being a tarpit/ tank busting unit a far cry from being an apex cc unit.
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Ignatius J. Reilly
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Drukhari   Wed May 17 2017, 20:17

@CurstAlchemist wrote:
@Ignatius J. Reilly wrote:
@The Red King wrote:
only slightly worse because terminators will now still get an armour save against them

Terminators would get a 5+ save. They already have a 5++ in 7th, so it really stays the same

Terminators still have an invulnerability save this edition, so they now get 2 saves instead of 1.

Yeah but you can only make one save right? so they either roll their armor save of 5+ or their invulnerable save which is a 5+. Unless you can roll armor saves AND THEN and invulnerable saves in the new edition. In which case I apologize for my ignorance.
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DARK_ARCHON_GAZ_NZ
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Drukhari   Wed May 17 2017, 20:20

They have talked briefly about 3 units which is quite limited and full of holes
We still have very little info about the rest of the army and changes to it
Wait and see

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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Drukhari   Wed May 17 2017, 20:24

How did they buff our dark lances? The 1d6 damage? Who cares? It's now S8 and he mentioned nothing of the "lance" special rule, meaning that dark lances have a harder time WOUNDING things to begin with, where they used to wound AV13+ as if it were only AV12. That extra damage isn't even the equivalent of our current ability to explode things with lances on a 6, since most things we previously could have exploded will now have more than 6 wounds.

I've rolled enough 1d6 on cluster caltrops to know that it isn't always the boon you think it is. 2d3 would be so much better.

And as for the lack of information: With their previous track record of highlighting some pretty awesome stuff for the other factions, then giving us lackluster info for DE, I think it's pretty safe to infer that there simply was not a lot of upside to highlight for DE. THAT is where the negativity is coming from. They broke from a set pattern of announcing cool stuff to announce some very "meh" stuff in an overly optimistic way.
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JonTheArchon
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Drukhari   Wed May 17 2017, 20:30

As negative as what BetrayTheWorld is saying, I have to agree with him. What they gave us was nothing to be excited about, they told us everything you are getting is the same as it was, be happy with it. Sure there are holes in what we know, but why give us nothing if there was anything even remotely interesting. Tau even got to see a new data slate for a unit, why didn't we. We got very limited information, on things that were subpar, where everyone else has gotten actual incentive. I understamd why there is so much negativity towards it, i just continue to hope that I'm wrong about this.
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Sarkesian
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Drukhari   Wed May 17 2017, 20:31

You truly believe that dark lances were not buffed? Possibility of 18 damage on a triple DL ravager seems waaay better than 3 it used to do. With AV gone from the game, we treat vehicles as MC were in 7th. Would you rather deal 3 wounds to a Wraithknight or 18? I'll take the latter.

Yes, there are more wounds now for larger models, but this is a huge boost in my opinion.

I'm willing to bet the Lance rule is gone. And this is why we have av-4 guns now.
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Razorfate
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Drukhari   Wed May 17 2017, 20:32

I asked about the movement rate of our vehicles an infantry in the comment part of the article in frontlinegaming.org, and Reecus answered as: "
Reecius
May 17, 2017 10:35 am
Reply
#
They are fast;)"

His attitude is very positive and as a good player he knows our problems, i do not personally doubt his sincerity.


Last edited by Razorfate on Wed May 17 2017, 20:37; edited 1 time in total
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Drukhari   Wed May 17 2017, 20:34

@Sarkesian wrote:

Yes, there are more wounds now for larger models, but this is a huge boost in my opinion.

I disagree. Do you want me to be optimistic? Fine:

On the bright side, at least my Tau and Eldar armies sound like they'll be good! Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Drukhari   Wed May 17 2017, 20:36

@BetrayTheWorld wrote:


And as for the lack of information: With their previous track record of highlighting some pretty awesome stuff for the other factions, then giving us lackluster info for DE, I think it's pretty safe to infer that there simply was not a lot of upside to highlight for DE. THAT is where the negativity is coming from. They broke from a set pattern of announcing cool stuff to announce some very "meh" stuff in an overly optimistic way.

THIS!

It appears to be a reverse of the codex releases for 7th... crap crap crap (dark eldar)crap, then AMAZING, great! Astounding!

Now it's:
Wow! Neat! exciting (dark eldar) meh.
actually, "meh" is too strong of an emotion to represent what I felt when i read it.

And it appears "lance" will add -1 AP. Nice, but to say dark lances are buffed.. I disagree.



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Sarkesian
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Drukhari   Wed May 17 2017, 20:39

Previously a T5 marine character on bike with multiple wounds would only ever take 1 wound from a DL, no chance of instant death. Now a single DL can deal D6 wounds to that character on bike. Is that not a buff?
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Skulnbonz
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Drukhari   Wed May 17 2017, 20:43

@Sarkesian wrote:
Previously a T5 marine character on bike with multiple wounds would only ever take 1 wound from a DL, no chance of instant death. Now a single DL can deal D6 wounds to that character on bike. Is that not a buff?

Previously Pask in a Leeman Russ could be blown off the table with one shot.
Now, you at BEST can do only 1/2 his wounds, causing no damage to his shooting or abilities in ANY way. Is that not a nerf?
You may only do 1 wound. 11 more shots like that and you may have something...

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Drukhari   Wed May 17 2017, 20:44

Love how our Wyches' new special rule is called "No Escape".
Does that mean getting flamed off our transports has died just like templates?

Also i guess the negativity here comes mostly from 7th edition.
BetrayTheWorld you counted the nerfs, how many were it? 30? 50?
Scepticism at some text saying Dark Eldar will be great again is adequate in my opinion.
The bunch of buffs and pseudo buffs it mentioned could be followed by a whateveritscalledscrolldex full of another 50-ish nerfs.

I'm more optimistic though, i guess it can't get worse than it is now, riiiight?

But if Betray is right and the author scraped everything good together that he could find, if i understood Betray correctly, then that's a really meager yield...
And we are majorly screwed.

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Sarkesian
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Drukhari   Wed May 17 2017, 20:45

But that's not a problem with just Dark Lances. Not even a S10 weapon can 1 shot that tank.
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Keast Kannegaard
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Drukhari   Wed May 17 2017, 20:49

"Venoms, as well, are absolutely fantastic vehicles, and due to the changes to the core rules of the game, all of their weapons now have at least a chance to hurt even resilient vehicles on a 6 to wound"

Think that one summons up where peoples negativity comes from... The most awesome thing to say about Venoms are the universal rule of everything can hurt everything... That's really... underwhelming imo...

I dont know Frankie, or his writing style, but reading the preview... its so overly positive, to the point, it feels forced and almost sarcastic.
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Drukhari   Wed May 17 2017, 20:57

@Sarkesian wrote:
But that's not a problem with just Dark Lances. Not even a S10 weapon can 1 shot that tank.

You're right nothing can one shot anything anymore but the stats they gave us for the Dark Lance I would not call a buff. With the old rules we could one shot tanks and treat them as a lower AV where other antitank weapons couldn't. Now it looks like in the new rules it will be almost exactly the same as any other antitank weapon. Its hard to compare accurately between the old and new edition but at most I would say that it was a lateral movement for the DL no upgrade and maybe no downgrade depending on the rest of the rules.
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Sarkesian
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Drukhari   Wed May 17 2017, 21:01

I'll agree that it is lateral against vehicles now due to more wounds. But against MC (tyranids) or even Grotesques, they are significantly better. Once tanks were dead you could deal 1 wound per DL. Now I can kill a grotesque with 1 DL instead of 3. They have much more utility now.
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Sess
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Drukhari   Wed May 17 2017, 21:03

Dark lances seem really buffed. Even if the lance weapon rule doesn't exist anymore I don't think there will be too many situations where we would wound vehicles on anything less than 4+ which was the equivalent of armor 12 previously. Plus rolling a 4 verses armor 12 before was a glance before whereas now it is the same as if we roll a 5 or a 6 on the dice. I doubt there will be many vehicles with higher than toughness 8 outside of crazy titan type units. Though lances will be better against things like dreadnoughts as I believe dreadnoughts had toughness 7 compared to 12 armor for a vehicle before, so we wound the new dreadnoughts on 3s instead of glance on 4s.

I'm personally skeptical about wyches and incubi as they seem to just be translated to the new edition and not buffed really. Hoping they get some other sort of rule to compensate, though if wyches can suddenly deep strike from a raider, get out, and charge in the same turn, it is a huge buff to them. I also really like that wych weapons giving -1 ap might actually make them pretty good even though we don't know what they do yet. Incubi not having to care about having grenades might be good if charging through terrain doesn't affect them having to go 2nd. Though the no escape type rule for wyches seems interesting, though it is still weaker than chasing down tau that fail morale and cutting down the unit rather now they actually have a chance to escape. Loss of initiative is also a pretty big deal for all of our close combat but hopefully they give us additional mobility to make up for it to represent our speed another way.

Disappointed we didn't really learn too much new things. Also I don't think it was confirmed that we are keeping our poisoned weapons. It is mentioned how they worked in 7th edition but I didn't see any information on if they are there in the new edition.

Edit: As someone else pointed out dark lances are way more effective vs monstrous creatures. We may have just received a really good way to kill something like a wraithknight and tau super suits.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Drukhari   Wed May 17 2017, 21:28

SO... Ravagers might be good, Im wondering about the Bomber more so tho.

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