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Faitherun
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Drukhari   Mon May 29 2017, 06:22

What I saw was on the page for the wyches, and looked at their splinter pistols. These said they wound on a 4+ unless the target unit had the key word vehicles, in which case it was a 6+.

Now, that is not to say that a GMC might not have a rules that says fixed die rolls to wound are never better then a 6+ or whatever... But from what I looked at, yes, we are good.
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Drukhari   Mon May 29 2017, 06:42

I hope they don't and suddenly we can fight giant ass monsters too!
Yeah!

Oh. Um... I mean: vehicles only wounds on 6?
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Drukhari   Mon May 29 2017, 07:24

@Ikol wrote:
@Faitherun wrote:
Nope - Having seen the index (briefly) I can say poison is still 4+ except vs vehicles where its a 6+

Woot, bleeding Woot!  That's great!

So is it only against vehicles that we need a 6+?  (If you saw it in full Razz) or do we have trouble against MC's and GMC's still?

Yeah this is the real question.

Is it 4+ or a 6+ vs the big guys (GMCs)?
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Drukhari   Mon May 29 2017, 08:34

@Faitherun wrote:


Nope - Having seen the index (briefly) I can say poison is still 4+ except vs vehicles where its a 6+

Tell us more! What are you waiting for?

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Drukhari   Mon May 29 2017, 09:52

But are the close combat weapons really Poisoned too?
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Drukhari   Mon May 29 2017, 10:44

@Count Adhemar wrote:
What I think is being overlooked in all the talk about assault from vehicles is that things like bikes and jump infantry are almost certainly going to be better at assaulting than any of our vehicle-based units and don't face the drawback of potentially being surrounded in their transports and killled automatically!

Basically this.

@Imateria wrote:
I'm sorry but "even if it Advanced this turn" is about as clear an override as it gets, nothing else is remotely needed.

Sigh.

Okay, apparently I have to spell this out for you.

The shooting phase is divided into 4 steps:
Step 1 - Choose Unit to Shoot With
Step 2 - Choose Targets
Step 3 - Choose Ranged Weapons
Step 4 - Resolve Attacks

Each step is predicated on completing the ones before it (e.g. if there are no legal targets in Step 2, you can't advance to Step 3).

With me so far?

Right, so let's say we have a squad of 5 Marines. 4 with bolters, 1 with a Flamer and 1 with a Lascannon (I don't know if this loadout will be possible, but let's just assume it is).

In the Movement Phase the squad Advances up the table.

Now we move to the shooting phase and begin with Step 1:
"In your Shooting Phase you can shoot with models armed with ranged weapons." Check.

"First, you must pick one of your units to shoot with. You may not pick a unit that Advanced or Fell Back this turn, or a unit that is within 1" of an enemy unit."

The player may not pick the unit of marines because it Advanced in the movement phase.

"But what about the Assault rule!" I hear you cry.

Okay, let's look at the Assault rule:

"A model with an Assault weapon can fire it even if it advanced earlier that turn."

I refer you back to Step 1 of the shooting phase:

"First, you must pick one of your units to shoot with. You may not pick a unit that Advanced"

Do you see any reference to models in that sentence? Do you see any mention of weapon types? No. Do you see any mention of 'units' or 'choosing' in the Assault rule? No.

This is a permissive ruleset. You do not have permission to choose the unit of marines that advanced. There is literally nothing in the Assault rule that overrides that. The Assault rule would, in theory, come into play in Step 3 (when you choose weapons). However, that's far too late because you've already been denied access to those steps.

"But the intent is obvious!" I could argue that we're already on dicey ground here. I mean, what's to stop me arguing that the intent of a transport is to move units before they disembark, and thus overriding that rule?

But whatever. Let's say you're right. Clearly the intent is that the model with an Assault weapon should be able to fire it even if the unit advanced. So clearly it must override that restriction in Step 1.

Okay, we'll move onto Step 2. Let's say that there's a single unit of orks within 6", so that'll be our target.

Step 3 (Choose Ranged Weapons). Okay. I'll choose to fire the Flamer, the Bolters and the Lascannon.

"Wait! You can't do that?"

On the contrary - nothing in Step 3 prevents me from choosing to fire the non-Assault weapons in the unit. Literally the only barrier to firing those weapons in the first place was in Step 1, and by allowing me to override that because the unit contained a model with an Assault weapon, you also opened the door for the unit to fire every non-Assault weapon as well. Good job.

Do you see the problem yet?

The barrier that prevents units that Advanced from shooting is in Step 1 and precludes the entire unit from even trying to shoot.

The Assault rule doesn't override this because it comes in at the wrong step and overcomes a barrier in that step that doesn't actually exist. What's more, if you allow the Assault rule to overcome the barrier in step 1, then there is nothing stopping the entire unit from shooting. Because by the time you get down to the level of individual models and weapons, the only barrier to shooting with non-Assault weapons has already been passed.


Now, this is fixable. First you'd have to remove the restriction in Step 1 that prevents you from being able to choose units that Advanced. Then you'd have to add a rule in Step 3 that prevented models that advanced from firing with any weapons that don't have the Assault property.

However, we're now having to break or remove one rule and then add a second rule [i]just to get the Assault rule to work as intended. If that's your idea of "nothing else is remotely needed", then I pray you never make it onto the design team.
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Eldur
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Drukhari   Mon May 29 2017, 11:20

Why do you even need to work that out? If there's an Assault rule for shooting weapons is just for that, shooting after advances (all weapons can shoot and charge now).

Unless you are  Sheldon Cooper and you feel the urge to use the RAW

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Drukhari   Mon May 29 2017, 11:23

@Eldur wrote:
Why do you even need to work that out? If there's an Assault rule for shooting weapons is just for that, shooting after advances (all weapons can shoot and charge now).

Unless you are  Cooper and you feel the urge to use the RAW

I honestly don't understand what you're saying here.

Unless you're asking me why I'd want to use the rules, as opposed to just making stuff up as I go along? Neutral

If so, I guess it's a fair question in light of GW's writing, but hardly a point in the ruleset's favour. Razz
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Drukhari   Mon May 29 2017, 11:30

@Eldur wrote:

Unless you are  Sheldon Cooper and you feel the urge to use the RAW
I forgot to write the name before.

I know that if you read the RAW, the Assaumt rule gets cancelled. But when a rule is written as an exemption to a mechanic, then it is what it is, an exemption.

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Drukhari   Mon May 29 2017, 11:46

@Eldur wrote:
I know that if you read the RAW, the Assaumt rule gets cancelled. But when a rule is written as an exemption to a mechanic, then it is what it is, an exemption.

I understand the principle of an exemption.

The problem is that the Assault rule doesn't work as such.

If a unit Advances in the movement phase, then there is a single barrier that prevents it from shooting in the subsequent Shooting Phase.

That barrier is in Step 1 of the Shooting Phase and deals with the whole unit - not with individual models or weapons.
- If the barrier is not passed, then the unit may not shoot at all.
- If the barrier is passed, then every model in the unit can shoot with every weapon they possess.

If the unit contains at least one model with an Assault weapon, then you either allow the unit to overcome this initial barrier (thus allowing the entire unit to shoot) or else you don't (thus preventing the model with the Assault weapon from shooting).


I get that the intent is relatively clear, but we're still having to break Step 1 of the shooting phase and then fabricate a rule that doesn't exist in Step 3 (to prevent non-Assault weapons from shooting) in order to get the Assault rule to actually work.
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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Drukhari   Mon May 29 2017, 11:51

Technically leaving out step one works fine, since with advancing it also mentions you can't charge or shoot. So you still cannot shoot with your other weapons even if you can select the unit.
So there is already a second barrier.
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Drukhari   Mon May 29 2017, 12:04

@|Meavar wrote:
Technically leaving out step one works fine, since with advancing it also mentions you can't charge or shoot. So you still cannot shoot with your other weapons even if you can select the unit.
So there is already a second barrier.

No, for all intents and purposes those barriers are one and the same. Because both barriers focus on the level of the unit - not the individual models.

The Assault rule still exists on an entirely different level to the barriers its supposed to pass. If the barrier is on the level of units, then the exemptions to it must also be on this level.

In order for the Assault rule to work, the barriers need to be on the level of models - not whole units.


Also, even if the second barrier was enough, it doesn't change the fact that we're still having to break at least one rule in order to get the Assault rule to function as intended.
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Drukhari   Mon May 29 2017, 12:16

If we ignore the step 1 unit selecting (where you are right and it makes the ausalut weapon as written incorrect).

The way I think it would work (although english is not my native language) The unit may not shoot, exept for model A and B who have an exeption to the rule that they cannot shoot.
Because it is not specified to fall in the step 1-4 anymore. Thus there is no reason why you cannot say the unit may not shoot exept for this model.
If you would put it at individual models it means that if you advance with half the unit you can suddenly shoot with those heavy weapons you did not advance with.
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Drukhari   Mon May 29 2017, 12:39

@|Meavar wrote:
The way I think it would work (although english is not my native language) The unit may not shoot, exept for model A and B who have an exeption to the rule that they cannot shoot.
Because it is not specified to fall in the step 1-4 anymore. Thus there is no reason why you cannot say the unit may not shoot exept for this model.

You're right in that the second barrier does not specify which phase it comes into play in.

However, only Step 1 is on the level of units - Steps 2 onwards move onto the level of individual models. Hence, the second barrier (which refers to entire units) must come into play either in Step 1 or between Step 1 and Step 2. After that, it is too late as we are no longer on the level of units.

So, the problem remains the same - since the Assault rule (which is on the level of models) won't come into play until Step 3. Hence, in order for the model with the Assault weapon to be able to shoot, you'd still have to bypass both barriers in earlier steps - thus allowing the other models to shoot as well.

Let me try to explain:

Step 1 (Choose unit to shoot with) <-- First Barrier (Y - whole unit can shoot / N - whole unit can't shoot.)
<-- Second Barrier (Y - whole unit can shoot / N - whole unit can't shoot.)
Step 2 (Choose Targets)
Step 3 (Choose Ranged Weapons) <-- No Barrier (Assault rule would theoretically come into play here.)
Step 4 (Resolve Attacks) <-- No Barrier

Does that help?

What I'm trying to get at is that, before you reach the step where the Assault rule exception would apply (Step 3), you first have to overcome 2 barriers that are all-or-nothing. If you bypass them, then the whole unit can shoot. If you don't bypass them, the the whole unit can't shoot. Neither of these barriers allow for differences between models or gear - they affect the entire unit.

And once you pass those barriers, there is no subsequent barrier in Step 2 or 3 that would stop individual models from shooting, even if they lacked the Assault rule.



Look, can we just all agree that the Assault rule is badly worded and more on? I doubt that anyone will actually try to play the RAW version and I only brought it up as an amusing aside. I hadn't planned for it to derail the entire thread. Embarassed
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Drukhari   Mon May 29 2017, 14:06

Threads exist for derailing.

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Drukhari   Mon May 29 2017, 14:23

@Painjunky wrote:
@Ikol wrote:
@Faitherun wrote:
Nope - Having seen the index (briefly) I can say poison is still 4+ except vs vehicles where its a 6+

Woot, bleeding Woot!  That's great!

So is it only against vehicles that we need a 6+?  (If you saw it in full Razz) or do we have trouble against MC's and GMC's still?

Yeah this is the real question.

Is it 4+ or a 6+ vs the big guys (GMCs)?

Well, looking at the leaked Chaos rules...

Abaddon, who I would consider on par with a GMC, has no such rule. SO looking good.

However. That helldrake is SICK!. 30" movement and able to get into CC! Damn. We better be ridiculously fast now. 10 power/138 pts.

I wanna see our reavers, raiders, and the like with at least an 18" move, able to advance, and charge
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Drukhari   Mon May 29 2017, 14:28

I guess DE flyers will be insanely fast. Reavers too. That's the fluff anyway.

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Drukhari   Mon May 29 2017, 15:17

@Faitherun wrote:
However. That helldrake is SICK!. 30" movement and able to get into CC! Damn. We better be ridiculously fast now. 10 power/138 pts.

See, this is why I find it odd that we can't disembark from Raiders after moving.

People say that it would give us insane charge ranges (even if the units weren't allowed to move after disembarking), yet a 30+2d6" charge range is apparently completely fine. Neutral

Also, I feel entirely vindicated about what I said regarding initiative. Yeah, I'm sure our 7-8" movement speed will really help us get the charge and go first against stuff that can move 30".
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Drukhari   Mon May 29 2017, 16:19

I hope Dark Eldar and only Dark Eldar get a special rule or keyword that allows ONLY US to disembark and assault after moving
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Drukhari   Mon May 29 2017, 16:30


If think we will be line this

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Drukhari   Mon May 29 2017, 17:15

So a helldrake can get into close combat and stay there? Doesn´t it have a minimum movement to prevent it from staying in combat like a normal model?
I bet our flyers will have such a rule so you can´t stay locked in combat.
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Drukhari   Mon May 29 2017, 17:16

@CptMetal wrote:
So a helldrake can get into close combat and stay there? Doesn´t it have a minimum movement to prevent it from staying in combat like a normal model?
I bet our flyers will have such a rule so you can´t stay locked in combat.

We dont know yet if that min distance is only if you choose to move. like hover/fly. we will have to wait and see for the rest of the rules.

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Drukhari   Mon May 29 2017, 17:29

@CptMetal wrote:
So a helldrake can get into close combat and stay there? Doesn´t it have a minimum movement to prevent it from staying in combat like a normal model?

There's no sign if it having a minimum movement value. Presumably this is because it could Hover last edition.

@CptMetal wrote:
I bet our flyers will have such a rule so you can´t stay locked in combat.

Honestly, I find it weird that combat is even a possibility for aircraft.

You'd think that they'd be rather beyond the ability of ground units to reach with swords and axes.

And if a flyer charges a ground unit, I'd expect it to result not in a combat but in a crater. Wink
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Drukhari   Mon May 29 2017, 17:34

Yeah but Helldrake's are a bit different they honestly should be more treated like a MC, most of the CSM vehicles are mutated to be living ish. It even has art and some fluff of it attacking with its claws.

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Drukhari   Mon May 29 2017, 17:40

Exactly, in 7th it could vector strike units flying and on the ground, which could be considered a CC attack, so nothing strange there.
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