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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Drukhari   Thu May 18 2017, 02:46

@Marrath wrote:

BetrayTheWorld you counted the nerfs, how many were it? 30? 50?

It's been awhile since I did the comparison and wrote that article, but I believe the number was 38 direct nerfs from the 5th edition codex to the 7th edition codex(we didn't get a 6th ed codex). About 5 of them were weakly debatable, but the other 32-33 were indisputable nerfs to DE.


We'll see what the actual release brings. This is one time I'd love to be wrong.

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Drukhari   Thu May 18 2017, 02:58

In the end we will make do with what we have like we always have. I am confident we will have overall more to make do with in this edition relative to other armies, relative to the state of things now in 7th edition.

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Drukhari   Thu May 18 2017, 05:11

@dumpeal wrote:
I kinda disagree about this. I understand what you are saying, but with what we have in hand, we can't conclude anything about poison weapons and feel no pain. As others have stated, he probably  had very strict directive on what he is allowed to say. Those texts are merely teasers. They will probably reveal more stuff on a second or third round of articles, closer to the release. That's why a lot of good stuff are not mentionned. They want to keep the big hype for when they will release the game.

Of course he had a strict narrative. With how much "support" they get from GW, Frontline Gaming might as well be on the payroll. Also this is the big tease before the game releases, they're not holding back. Poison might still be in there, and Power from Pain might be too, but they're not. I know they're not, just like all the other things I mentioned aren't in the game anymore. They're complex and difficult to balance around, so they've been axed, fluff be damned. Why have difficulty when everything can be the same? Dark Lances are Lascannons now. Splinter rifles are going to be either bolters or lasguns. Heat Lances will just be worse melta.

But that's my point, this game is going to be AoS. You can literally win the game if you're good at doing quick statistics in your head when placing models on the table because you alternate setting up models with your opponent (mark my words this will be in the game) and a unit's ability to interact with other units is so static. That's why things like explodes! results and templates and crash and burn and all that are gone now, they add too many outliers. They turn a Gaussian distribution into a Cauchy. The increased wounds on vehicles to make them more survivable and the fact all AP is armor modifiers and the fact that everything is able to hurt everything lends itself towards putting your army list and another person's army list into STATA and coming up with a probable victory scenario more than it does fun or interesting gameplay. It's balanced in the e-sports sense of the word. No surprises, no ridiculous overpowered units, no interesting rule mechanics.

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Drukhari   Thu May 18 2017, 06:45

Everyone saying lances can now kill a Grot or other monster need to understand that all of these will likely get more wounds. Claiming a single dark lance can kill a carnifex now is laughable - these will be 10+ wounds easily. Grots could easily be 4+ wounds each

The changes to lance are worse because you have taken way the consistency in their effects. You could bank on the results - the d6 wounds is to varied. I agree with who ever said 2d3 would be better.

I also think everyone needs to stop using 7th as the benchmark - this is a whole new rules set and we have no context for the changes we have seen. We don't have the information to make educated statements on what is or isn't good. You cant even compare the 7th rules to 8th because EVERYONE is changing at the same time.

For the love of god can we also stop with the '40k is now AoS' or 'they have age of sigmar'd 40k'. If you had seen 40k, WHFB and AoS from day one you would see that the rules all developed each other with nods to old editions and rules being cyclical in nature. A lot of AoS is old school 40k and WHFB. Taking elements from AoS is actually recycling a lot of old 40k. Its making the game more complex as well - not simpler.

The day 1 reset for all forces means we can't know where we fit in from what we have seen thus far.

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Drukhari   Thu May 18 2017, 09:36

I'm slightly more optimistic this morning, not over the GW article but over the comments made about it on the FLG website. Whilst I have to caveat this by saying that Reece and Frankie have been unfailingly upbeat about absolutely every unit or rule that has been discussed, Reece is practically throwing his toys out the pram at anyone getting negative over DE.

Reece wrote:
Haha, I suppose you DE players have some serious Stockholm syndrome going on to explain this total lack of trust! The article was saying that your transport vehicles are AMAZING. Like, seriously outstandingly good. Stop thinking about things as they are now, that is what is tripping you all up. NewHammer fundamentally changes the way your army plays. You’re comparing things we say are good to what you know now but that is like comparing a rule in 7th ed 40k to something in a different game: it’s silly and not at all informative nor useful in any way. There are rules interactions we can’t talk about yet that will make your eyes go wide when you can put all this information in context. Just a tad more patience =)

I mean, this is actually funny, Frankie and I are laughing our asses off at some of these comments. However, you all are working with what you have, which is an incomplete picture.

Just trust us. If you play Dark Eldar, you are going to be over the moon stoked at how much your army has improved. I will leave it at that. =)

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Drukhari   Thu May 18 2017, 09:37

@Massaen wrote:
Everyone saying lances can now kill a Grot or other monster need to understand that all of these will likely get more wounds. Claiming a single dark lance can kill a carnifex now is laughable - these will be 10+ wounds easily. Grots could easily be 4+ wounds each

The changes to lance are worse because you have taken way the consistency in their effects. You could bank on the results - the d6 wounds is to varied. I agree with who ever said 2d3 would be better.

I also think everyone needs to stop using 7th as the benchmark - this is a whole new rules set and we have no context for the changes we have seen. We don't have the information to make educated statements on what is or isn't good. You cant even compare the 7th rules to 8th because EVERYONE is changing at the same time.

For the love of god can we also stop with the '40k is now AoS' or 'they have age of sigmar'd 40k'. If you had seen 40k, WHFB and AoS from day one you would see that the rules all developed each other with nods to old editions and rules being cyclical in nature. A lot of AoS is old school 40k and WHFB. Taking elements from AoS is actually recycling a lot of old 40k. Its making the game more complex as well - not simpler.

The day 1 reset for all forces means we can't know where we fit in from what we have seen thus far.


Totally agree
Well written

Once the rules and "full army info " come out
Ill be play testing with all armies me and my mate own
Ill see how they play in 20 plus games before jumping to conclusions
Given the tiny amount of info we have its impossible to really comment on how DE will.play
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Drukhari   Thu May 18 2017, 10:15

I seemed to have missed the longer chat. Just going to drop in and say the article was underwhelming. I don't necessarily take it as a reflection on the game of the Drew Carey, just the quality of the article.
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Drukhari   Thu May 18 2017, 11:12

For the love of Khaine:
Stop pronouncing it as drew Carey.

Think more like German or Russian!
Please!

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Drukhari   Thu May 18 2017, 11:17

@TeenageAngst wrote:
Never trust a west coast tourney player, they don't play 40k. Idk what they do play but it ain't 40k

Don't say that man. Smile

When these guys say "Just trust us. If you play Dark Eldar, you are going to be over the moon stoked at how much your army has improved." it actually gives me hope.
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Drukhari   Thu May 18 2017, 12:11

Quote :
For the love of Khaine:
Stop pronouncing it as drew Carey.

Think more like German or Russian!
Please!

Belive me, it doesnt sound less funny in Russian. Something like faces of a friend.

I think we should source more arabic speach. Khkhkhhh is their sound.

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Drukhari   Thu May 18 2017, 12:16

@Azdrubael wrote:
Belive me, it doesnt sound less funny in Russian. Something like faces of a friend.
That sounds like the good old Vexator Mask. A little comical for the faction as a whole though.

I felt kinda meh from the article, as they don't sound like amazing improvements from the current rules framework. But with so few details of the new rules overall, I can't tell whether the news is amazing or average.

I will save judgement until I get to roll dice in anger.

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Drukhari   Thu May 18 2017, 12:27

Lots of comments say that "Everything is the same as before". But even if that tiny bit of information about wyches and incubi didn't show us something new, the whole game will be completely different.
Consider what we know at the moment.
- Depp strike w/o scatter
- Charge out of transpots
- Charge from reserve
- 1st strike when u charge
- buffs from characters

Everything mentioned will increase the playability of our units multiple times. Consider also, what we don't know yet.

As for the lances. Who say that u could oneshot a leman russ? YES! Technically u could. But I got only one "Exploded" result from dark light weapon in 5 (!) games while playing an army with about 20 lances and blasters. With 33% chance of doing anything to AV12 it was one of the worst and overpriced weapons in the game. It is the chance of inflicting a wound with poison, but you have about 90 poison shots in ur army.

By now DLs are better. By a tiny bit, but better. Still 33% chance to wound a T8 but:
- Better AP (or rend) equal to the value of melta weapons.
- Better damage (in comparison with lascannon)
- Ignores cover due to hight AP
- Split fire rules allow you take more DL to Kabalite squads.
- Heavy weapons rules allow you to equip scourges with DL and be mobile.
- Depp strike w/o scatter and blasterbornes? (Hypotheticly, but why not).

So guys there is a reason for optimism here, but I agree the tone of the article was overly optimistic.

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Drukhari   Thu May 18 2017, 12:48

Yeah something Im thinking of doing is Blast Pistols on all Syberites.
Can DS>Shoot>charge>shoot
If i am charged while in vehicle > shoot blast pistol out of open top into combat.

My feeling from the little info we have.

Pros:
1) We will be vehicle/ds heavy (I like this makes us feel more like a raiding party
2) Pistols will be good
3) DL's and Dis Cannons will be good
4) If wwp stays and can DS MC's we along with Nids might be king of Melee
5) Potential Fliers to be strong

Cons:
1) Our IC are trash, Sniper can (so far the 1 sniper we saw can at least, assuming all snipers can) target IC, if so Snipers will be popular, SM/Eldar will kill our IC's easily
2) IMO Wyches are still bad (who needs 1 turn tarpits when we can just use Incubi? Better saves and damage)
3) Hellions are still bad (IMO currently one of the worst units in game, I'd take Wychs over them and no word about these guys yet leads me to believe they are just slightly cheaper and now can hurt everything)
4) PFP is gone (No word on it, multi players asked on facebook and no response ) so we loose a bit of fluff.

Over all i'm hopeful still, honestly i cant wait fr the rules and getting really tired of these rip drop teases.

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Drukhari   Thu May 18 2017, 12:56

@CptMetal wrote:
For the love of Khaine:
Stop pronouncing it as drew Carey.

Think more like German or Russian!
Please!

I apologise, but that really is how my naturally English speaking mind reads the word!



Looking at what we have so far, I can only hope that Raider and Venoms are amongst those things which have a Deep Strike mechanic, ideally through Webway Portals. If Speed is to be our strength again, then thats probably the fastest we possibly can be.
I guess it comes down to can you charge from disembark? And can you charge from a disembark after a Deep Strike?
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Drukhari   Thu May 18 2017, 13:21

I'm holding out hope that the "Can't shoot if an enemy is within 1" of you" carries over into overwatch.
Zoom up, deploy real real close, and charge in with no overwatch may be the only possible way for Wyches to survive.
ESPECIALLY against flamers

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Drukhari   Thu May 18 2017, 13:25

@TeenageAngst wrote:

Edit 2: I love how my topic complaining about actual things that happened in the printed literature got locked for "handwringing and baseless speculation" but a topic where literally the entire forum except for me and like 2 people are doing nothing but handwringing and baseless speculation on a 5 minute article is entirely valid. Carry on, gents.

I think it was shut down less for 'handwringing' and more because the argument had become circuitous and one side had spent the last several comments making satirical statements that did not progress the debate or provide new content.

Anyway, this is not the place for this gripe, if you have an issue with my statement, drop something to me in a PM?

Back to the actual topic of this thread with me!

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Drukhari   Thu May 18 2017, 13:36

@Sarkesian wrote:
You truly believe that dark lances were not buffed? Possibility of 18 damage on a triple DL ravager seems waaay better than 3 it used to do. With AV gone from the game, we treat vehicles as MC were in 7th. Would you rather deal 3 wounds to a Wraithknight or 18? I'll take the latter.

Yes, there are more wounds now for larger models, but this is a huge boost in my opinion.

I'm willing to bet the Lance rule is gone. And this is why we have av-4 guns now.

The Wraithknight is a poor example as high Toughness, High Wound modelsw were not the primary target of a Darklance in 7th ed. The primary target was Tanks. having an 11.111% chance to one shot a Land-Raider or anything with an Armour Value per hit And the guarantee that against any Vehicle in the Game. To my eye, that is better than D6 Wounds against an 18 wound model (Gorkanaut).

Beyond that, AV12 maps to T8 whilst AV14 maps to T10, based on needing a roll of 4+ to Wound/Glance.
Now a Darklance can Wound only T8 on a 4+ and anything beyond that on a 5+. Whatever way I slice it, this is only a buff against models that functioned on Wounds in the previous System, and a nerf against vehicles. WHICH SHOULD BE THE DARKLANCE's PRIMARY TARGET.

@BetrayTheWorld wrote:
I've rolled enough 1d6 on cluster caltrops to know that it isn't always the boon you think it is. 2d3 would be so much better.

Complete agreeance; lower chance of getting a '6 wounds or 2 wounds' result, higher chance of getting a '3-5 wounds' result and a guarantee of not getting a '1 wounds' result.
The random distribution of damage output ends up on a bell-curve rather than a universal odds scenario.


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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Drukhari   Thu May 18 2017, 13:42

Well luckily we have a weapon that shoots 3x and wounds 2x per hit!

SO you dont have to use DL's if you dont want to Smile

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Drukhari   Thu May 18 2017, 14:21

@Ikol wrote:
The Wraithknight is a poor example as high Toughness, High Wound modelsw were not the primary target of a Darklance in 7th ed.  The primary target was Tanks.  having an 11.111% chance to one shot a Land-Raider or anything with an Armour Value per hit

I think you need to check your maths. To one shot a Land Raider with a Dark Lance was 5.55% per hit (5+ on penetration roll and 6 on the damage table) and that doesn't take into account any save the Land Raider may have had. And if you were relying on Dark Lances for your AT in 7e then you had some pretty serious problems as they were utter crap!

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Drukhari   Thu May 18 2017, 14:44

Fun fact, against gangantuan things (t9) it is probably better then the DL
Even against t8 it is roughly similar (0.875 wounds versus 0.833 wounds) but more reliable since you roll more dice. So funnily enough it switched completely who was good against what kind of tanks/monsters. Only against normal troops with 1 or 2 wounds the disintegrator of course stays better.

Then again this is all on the assumption that dissies keep the same stats, since he does not mention their s.

I actually like that it is not possible to one shot all those things anymore. It makes the game less about luck.
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Drukhari   Thu May 18 2017, 16:25

That`s may be a stupid one: when new edition is going to see the light?

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Drukhari   Thu May 18 2017, 17:15

@Devilogical wrote:
That`s may be a stupid one: when new edition is going to see the light?

They'll tell us the release date sometime later this month, though little birds have been whispering June 10th or June 17th for some reason or other. Just remember that little birds are notorious liars.
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Drukhari   Thu May 18 2017, 17:24

remember the end of their fiscal year is the 28th of May I think, so To start the fiscal year strong preorders starting the 3rd of June for either a 2 week preorder for the 17th or a release on the 10th just makes good business sense.
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Drukhari   Thu May 18 2017, 19:21

*Stumbles out of coffin*

With regard to Dark Lances, I'd say that they have improved somewhat, albeit at the cost of their AP.  

Let us be honest for a moment - the Lance rule was terrible. It was worthless against the vast majority of vehicles to begin with, and even when it did work it's effect was minimal and it seemed to exist purely to justify not giving us proper anti-vehicle weapons. What's more, by the time 7th rolled around, AP2 wasn't enough to reliably explode penetrated vehicles and we lacked the shots to strip HP efficiently.

Anyway, I'd say that d6 wounds is an improvement, albeit a relatively meagre one.

Here's the problem though - it wasn't just Dark Lances that got buffed in this manner. We already know that Lascannons have basically received the exact same treatment (and they didn't even have a Lance rule to replace). So, this buff has also been given to all the SM factions and IG.

In other words, I don't think you can rely on this to actually bring us ahead in any way. If we are 5 steps behind the leader, then having us both step forward will still leave us 5 steps behind, if you see what I mean.

Disintegrators seem improved, though we don't yet know whether their strength has changed.

5++ for Raiders could be nice, but will be far less so if it's just a forced upgrade.

Other transport stuff is interesting but rather meaningless without seeing more of the rules.

With regard to Incubi, I think it's quite telling that the only thing mentioned is that their already-weak weapons have actually gotten worse. Call me Mr. Pessimist, but when a company can apparently find so little positive to say about a unit that they decide to put a nerf into their marketing blurb, I really don't have high hopes for that unit being good.

As for wyches, all I'll say is that they might as well have boasted that their models will come in a box. It's more positive than anything we've heard about them so far.

Here's the thing - if these units had been good in 7th, then I'd probably be happy to hear that they'd stayed about the same. But that wasn't the case. Both of these were terrible in 7th and I see nothing whatsoever to indicate that this has changed or even been acknowledged. Wyches are still paper-thin and hit like wet tissue.

What's more, both of these units have now lost their initiative advantage and have seemingly been given nothing to replace it. So maybe they'll get an extra inch or so of movement over marines. Who cares? Given that charge distances are still random, it's a piddling bonus to begin with.

More importantly though, you do realise that these units will still be drastically slower than bikes, jump packs, thunderwolves and the like. An Incubi Klaivex used to strike before a SM Captain in combat. Now the SM Captain can have a Thunderhammer and still strike first if he invests in a bike or such.

Now, maybe our transports will help us claw back the movement race, but the point is that we're now having to desperately claw back an advantage we has as-standard in 7th.


Maybe DE will be finally be on par with the other armies in 8th. Maybe. However, judging by this small pool of leaks, it looks like our melee stuff is still far behind what it needs to be.


*Crawls back into coffin and shuts lid*
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Drukhari   Thu May 18 2017, 20:41

To all of you that are still being negative. See of you can find solace in these words:

It seems as though your life, as of late, has been consumed with "Old games workshop" and the "rules" it wrote. You’ve begged, you’ve argued, you’ve cried – and you’ve begged some more. You’ve felt the betrayal, you’ve kept secrets in shame, felt lost, carried guilt and you’ve seen financial devastation. You’ve lost sleep, sanity, peace of mind, relationships and friendships. All because you’ve tried to play with the 7th ed rules 'as written'.

You’ve seen, felt and lived with "Old games workshop". And now, Games workshop is back again – and this time, it's "new". It has detoxed the attitude, the rules team has stopped drinking and has gone through game design counseling in residential and outpatient programs. It is in recovery.

But you? You’re still adjusting. You’re having trouble truly trusting Games workshop again.

You may find yourself in one of the four stages of trust after "Old games workshop".

Stage 1: Paranoia.

The nightmares of "Old games workshop" still play on repeat in your head. You’ve seen units that you love get unusable rules too many times to count and you’re bound and determined to never see war gear like "the orbs of despair" ever again. Even if it means writing your own fandex, snooping through salty rumor sites, subscribing to the GW newsletter on your phone or constantly checking the community page. You’re overly invested in Games workshops daily schedule.

Of course, you want Games workshop to connect with other people in recovery at meetings and you want games workshop to make a playable game. But what if games workshop is not really listening to the community? What if they are making a new dumbed down 7th edition instead of a revamped and balanced 8h ed? What if they are writing in formations with free transports for marines again?

Hitting Stage 1 after "Old games workshop" becomes "new" involves a lot of “what ifs?” But the “what ifs” won’t get your preferred army better. Those paranoid thoughts and actions aren’t healthy for anyone.

Remember, "Old games workshop" was a disease of the entire gaming community – and the fact is, Games Workshop IS getting better. They are the one who developed new tools while in treatment, tools to build a new and sober game system. They've grown stronger, and knows what they need to do to stay strong. They are getting healthy, but you’re still sick.

If you’re stuck in Stage 1, it’s time to get help for yourself. If your internet forum community do not provide family care and counseling, find your own help or therapist. And find like minded people in support groups like /TG GW-Anon. Work on yourself.
It is going to be hard. It is going to take time.
But maybe... just maybe, we will one day be able to trust Games Workshop again.
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GENERAL DARK ELDAR DISCUSSION

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