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Skulnbonz
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Datasheets   Mon May 15 2017, 17:22

Have any of you guys even PLAYED dark eldar?
I mean really? We are going to be "great" in 8th? Editions 1-7 did not work out that well for us!
Hope we will but wouldn't bet the farm on it.



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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Datasheets   Mon May 15 2017, 18:46

Especially since dark eldar did not exist in the first 2 editions of the game! They really sucked back then!

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krayd
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Datasheets   Mon May 15 2017, 18:57

They may not have been 'great' in 5th edition, but they were a solid 'good'.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Datasheets   Mon May 15 2017, 19:26

Yeah was about to say, DE didnt come until 3 and the new line in 5th made them close to tier until GK's came out. I thought Necrons came out around that time too and they where good? If my memory is correct.

I just started collecting in 5th with the new line, up until then I had nids, and I had a lot of fun with nids in 5th ed so I only played like 50 games of DE, I really got into them at the start of 6th.

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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Datasheets   Mon May 15 2017, 19:29

Fine, you guys be pessimistic. When the new edition drops and I start carving our devastating lists from the new material I'm just gonna pull a BetrayTheWorld and keep it all to myself.

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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Datasheets   Mon May 15 2017, 20:37

@TeenageAngst wrote:

Also if you can't see how we are gonna be good in 8th I can't show you. I just know when I look at the big picture, the pieces fall into place. The 4D wizard chess is working it's magic.

Could you at least try to explain to us scrubs why you think DE will be so great?
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Datasheets   Mon May 15 2017, 20:49

@TeenageAngst wrote:
Fine, you guys be pessimistic. When the new edition drops and I start carving our devastating lists from the new material I'm just gonna pull a BetrayTheWorld and keep it all to myself.

Im neither tho... Im waiting for the rules to come out not the sneak peaks.

Being so strongly argumentative about things we dont know is pointless....

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Datasheets   Mon May 15 2017, 21:06

TeenageAngst has said before that since 8th will be similar to AoS, and in AoS movement is an important aspect of the game, and Dark Eldar are supposed to be maneuverable, hence Dark Eldar will do exceptionally well in 8th. It's a sound argument, we just have to see if the premises are true or there are not other factors that will make it's conclusion untrue (for example it may be that movement is indeed vital in 8th, and Drukhari are great at it, but are overpriced or don't have enough killing power, etc.).

There is certainly plenty of potential for Dark Eldar to be top-tier, but frankly I hope that no army is top-tier and there is actually real balance where no player is penalized for playing one faction over another. Honestly with what has been leaked it's anyone's guess as to which armies will dominate 8th. Because the few units and rules that have been leaked could easily be overcompensated for with other rules we have not seen yet.

I remain cautiously optimistic that while the game will not be perfectly balanced, it will be more balanced than it is currently. I foresee swarm armies doing well as the prime ways to get rid of them (blasts and templates) have been changed to be less effective at dealing with swarms, and now little termagaunts can wound Land Raiders.

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Datasheets   Mon May 15 2017, 21:56

When talking about assumptions, you have to take it as an.... assumption and a prediction of opinions.

Arguing, talking down to others will create hostility,

As of right now we have very little rules out, let everyone have their opinions, if your opinion differs sure voice your opinion but dont talk down or belittle others.

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Datasheets   Tue May 16 2017, 02:30

my 3 biggest questions are 1) are we back to being the fastest army again (that happens to be one of the big pulls of Dark Eldar for me, but I grant it's just personal preference) 2) do we retain Poison Splinter weapons, and 3) Will Kabalites and a shooty Dark Eldar be as viable as Melee-oriented Dark Eldar, seeing as this edition is supposed to revitalize melee. I am positively itching for the rules to be released.

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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Datasheets   Tue May 16 2017, 04:04

@Painjunky wrote:
@TeenageAngst wrote:

Also if you can't see how we are gonna be good in 8th I can't show you. I just know when I look at the big picture, the pieces fall into place. The 4D wizard chess is working it's magic.

Could you at least try to explain to us scrubs why you think DE will be so great?  

I can't really explain it, but it's like when you're looking at a math problem and all the sudden you can see the Matrix and it clicks and everything makes sense. That's what this is like.

40k is going to be like AoS in all but name, closer in fact than 30k is, or 40k now is, to 8th edition 40k. We can draw a lot of comparisons between them. Flyers are good, very much so, and mobility is absolutely essential to getting into combat quickly. There's a reason Ironjawz are the top tier army. Combat itself isn't just used to kill things but to lock up enemy units. By organizing your charges properly you can do the equivalent of a fighting game's stunlock by preventing enemy units from even engaging by bubble-wrapping them in their own dudes or forcing them out of combat range in order to not break unit coherency across 2 combats. Imagine 2 squads of Wyches tying up a 10 man squad of Terminators, but the 6 Terminators in between the 2 combats can't fight because if they pile in they break coherency. Having speed allows us to make these situations happen almost regardless of the match up by outmaneuvering the opponent. It also allows us to avoid bad match ups much easier.

On top of that, warmachines are stupidly overpowered in AoS and this is only not felt by the majority of the players because only about half the factions even have access to war machines, and of those factions, about half aren't produced by GW anymore. Dark Eldar were always a mechanized army so we can expect our Raiders, Venoms, Ravagers and flyers to be stronger than in 7th, especially those flyers.

Another reason is weight of dice. Dark Eldar, like Tee-apostrophe-au and Orks, have always relied on fistfulls of dice to get the job done. 7th edition breaks down when psychic buffs and such are applied, like marker lights, which is why the Tee-apostrophe-au and Eldar are so overpowered. In AoS most of this has been ground down to statistical averages to the point you may as well have a percentage chance next to your unit profile rather than a hit and wound roll. 8th edition will be no different, and the weight of dice for most armies will be taken away. Dark Eldar though, if my itchy nose is right, will still have poison and lots of it, allowing us to melt enemies by still gleaning the benefits of the weight of our dice, assuming poison still operates anything close to how it does currently, which I feel is a safe bet.

No one part of any of these things is something quantifiable, it's not something you can point to in a stat block or a trickle of information, it's more a gut feeling I've had since this info has started coming down the pike. Our army is going to play like dogs herding sheep and only a select few armies will be able to counter someone who knows how to run a proper Dark Eldar list.

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Datasheets   Tue May 16 2017, 19:20

I would be thrilled if this ends up being true. I love you

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Datasheets   Tue May 16 2017, 19:42

wait...tennageangst. are you actually optimistic?!

WHAT IS HAPPENING????
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Datasheets   Tue May 16 2017, 20:46

@CptMetal. To be fair TA has been saying DE will be bonkers in 8th for quite a while now.

@TA. Thanks for explaining. I don't play AOS but I hope ur right.
I don't know about "weight of dice for most armies will be taken away" in regards to shooting.
I think the amount of shots will actually increase in 8th.

We shall see.
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Datasheets   Tue May 16 2017, 20:57

Shots will, but the weight they carry won't increase proportionally. My high AELF archers are 4+/4+. That means 20 archers will do 5 wounds. You can set your watch to it, and the opponent knows the damage output and thus sets his army up accordingly because it's so predictable. Dark Eldar have far more variables, such as range due to rapid fire, twin linked in Raiders, etc. We also have a bazillion small units that can just force the opponent to keep rolling dice. These aren't as predictable and require the opponent to constantly stay on their toes. 8e we will be able to look at every unit and the astute among us with quick math skills can hash out the probability of dying just by having unit numbers and to-hit score. Its gonna be a game that lends itself to the dice equivalent of card counters.

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Skulnbonz
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Datasheets   Tue May 16 2017, 21:21

Until we know the rules for dark Eldar, everything we say about them (pessimistic and optimistic) are just pure guesswork.

tomorrow we will have a faint hint of what we will have in store for us, so here is to hoping we come out on the top tiers for a change!

even that hint will not paint the picture.. something as simple as the return of the ability to be all in reserves will be a huge difference maker for the Dark kin. We just don't know, and WON'T know until the rules for the game, and the rules for our and every other army out there are released.

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Imateria
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Datasheets   Wed May 17 2017, 13:27

I'm actually in complete agreement with TeenageAngst. The only caveat to this is that the writers haven't completely ballsed up our army, but that would require a level of incompetence even our current codex can't match.

@Skulnbonz wrote:
Until we know the rules for dark Eldar, everything we say about them (pessimistic and optimistic) are just pure guesswork.

tomorrow we will have a faint hint of what we will have in store for us, so here is to hoping we come out on the top tiers for a change!

even that hint will not paint the picture.. something as simple as the return of the ability to be all in reserves will be a huge difference maker for the Dark kin.  We just don't know, and WON'T know until the rules for the game, and the rules for our and every other army out there are released.
You are aware that we can do a full null deploy list in 7th, right?
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Skulnbonz
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Datasheets   Wed May 17 2017, 14:21

@Imateria wrote:

You are aware that we can do a full null deploy list in 7th, right?

No we can't.
I am referring to a VALID null deploy, not a scalpel squadron which could easily be removed from the table in 1 turn of shooting from almost every army in the game.

I am talking about a nothing on the board until turn 2 deployment tactic, depending on who is going first, the army they have, their deployment, etc...

You know... Null deploy.

Again, all of my posts are coming from a competitive standpoint, not a "fun or fluffy" game standpoint.

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Datasheets   Wed May 17 2017, 15:06

@Skulnbonz wrote:
@Imateria wrote:

You are aware that we can do a full null deploy list in 7th, right?

No we can't.
I am referring to a VALID null deploy, not a scalpel squadron which could easily be removed from the table in 1 turn of shooting from almost every army in the game.

I am talking about a nothing on the board until turn 2 deployment tactic, depending on who is going first, the army they have, their deployment, etc...

You know... Null deploy.

Again, all of my posts are coming from a competitive standpoint, not a "fun or fluffy" game standpoint.

Looks like null deploy is out: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/17/new-warhammer-40000-reserves-and-deep-striking-may17gw-homepage-post-4/

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Skulnbonz
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Datasheets   Wed May 17 2017, 16:30

Well that was quick! :-)

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Imateria
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Datasheets   Wed May 17 2017, 17:47

@Skulnbonz wrote:
@Imateria wrote:

You are aware that we can do a full null deploy list in 7th, right?

No we can't.
I am referring to a VALID null deploy, not a scalpel squadron which could easily be removed from the table in 1 turn of shooting from almost every army in the game.

I am talking about a nothing on the board until turn 2 deployment tactic, depending on who is going first, the army they have, their deployment, etc...

You know... Null deploy.

Again, all of my posts are coming from a competitive standpoint, not a "fun or fluffy" game standpoint.
Still a valid null deploy tactic regardless of how strong you think it is. And as for having nothing on the table until turn 2, no army in the game can do that as having no units on the table at the end of a game turn is an auto loose.
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Datasheets   Wed May 17 2017, 18:52

@Imateria wrote:

Still a valid null deploy tactic regardless of how strong you think it is.
And Wyches are still a valid hand to hand unit. It/they still suck.
Quote :

And as for having nothing on the table until turn 2, no army in the game can do that as having no units on the table at the end of a game turn is an auto loose.

this edition

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