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Creeping Darkness
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Infantry is up   Mon May 08 2017, 23:05

I love these changes, and hope to see more infantry on the field.

Split fire seems like it will help reduce the efficiency gap between MSU and big blob units.

Dark Eldar have been on the receiving end of 'everything can hurt everything' for years. I'm looking forward to seeing what that's like from the other side.
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Infantry is up   Tue May 09 2017, 06:11

@BetrayTheWorld wrote:

I'm really curious, with the addition of charging units always attacking first, how they're going to balance units that previously had high initiatives as one of their main selling points. Without high initiative, pretty much every DE melee unit is WAY worse.

Faster movement + pre-measuring means that you're more likely to get the charge, as long as you don't do anything stupid, because you can better keep your distance if you're unable to charge yourself, or move into charge range more easily.
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Infantry is up   Tue May 09 2017, 07:28

@krayd wrote:



Faster movement + pre-measuring means that you're more likely to get the charge, as long as you don't do anything stupid, because you can better keep your distance if you're unable to charge yourself, or move into charge range more easily.

I don`t realy hope for such a things.

It was said previously, for example, that terminators would move slow and low, while troupe of harlequins will run through the field like crazy. Look on terminators. They get a huge boost of +1 wound, but so slow... just 5th Mv. And thats for a deep striking unit (that will not scatter any more). How fast our units will become? Mv 7 is more than we can achive Crying or Very sad It`s not a big change since 7th. Will we get some new boosts, like +ONE ATTACK in profile? I dunno.

And remeber, it`s not important who will charge first. Enemy will simply walk away next turn and your melee squad will be filled up if bullets. Sad

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Creeping Darkness
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Infantry is up   Tue May 09 2017, 08:28

Don't forget the bullets on the way in, too!

On the bright side, melee offers a chance to brutalise an already damaged enemy. With Battleshock triggering only at the end of the turn, casualties from melee will add to the casualties inflicted from shooting. Once you get past as many casualties as they have leadership, every casualty you do (in either phase) counts double - for every extra you kill one more will be going down in the morale phase.

Unless you're charging a monstrous creature or vehicle, in which case you're SOL.
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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Infantry is up   Tue May 09 2017, 08:32

People who don't think we're going to be insanity in Age of 8th Edition haven't seen how big a factor speed is in AoS.

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Infantry is up   Tue May 09 2017, 09:00

Wyches wounding tanks without haywire, wounding T5 with 3+ and being wounded by S5 at 3+. The field has been flattened towards their level. I couldn't be happier.

Remember that our vehicles (T6? T7?) will be wounded at the same ratio as before, more or less (we only add S3 to the weapons we should fear), while we will get more wounds for sure.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Infantry is up   Tue May 09 2017, 09:01

@TeenageAngst wrote:
People who don't think we're going to be insanity in Age of 8th Edition haven't seen how big a factor speed is in AoS.

We've not seen what our speed is yet so it's pretty hard to judge. And given that GW decided to reintroduce a movement stat and then chose not to have it linked in any way to running or charging doesn't fill me with confidence. Being, for example, 1" faster than Space Marines really isn't going to make a difference in most cases.

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Infantry is up   Tue May 09 2017, 09:30

@Eldur wrote:
Wyches wounding tanks without  haywire, wounding T5 with  3+ and being wounded by S5 at 3+. The field has been flattened towards their level. I couldn't be happier.

where did you get that from?
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Infantry is up   Tue May 09 2017, 09:34

@BetrayTheWorld wrote:
Nah, I'm betting on keywords. That means, against anything without the unliving keyword, our weapons will use 4+ for the poison rule, and against unliving targets, we'll wound on 6's using our weapon's strength(of either 1 or 3, probably).

I'm really curious, with the addition of charging units always attacking first, how they're going to balance units that previously had high initiatives as one of their main selling points. Without high initiative, pretty much every DE melee unit is WAY worse.

I'll take being able to do a wound to a vehicle on a six. I'd even count that as a minor buff if posion stays 4+. The odds aren't great but, better than being unable to wound a rhino.

Given that we haven't seen any rules yet for skimmers or assualt transports I'm careful to judge our melee units. I feel like those rules could make or break our melee option.
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Infantry is up   Tue May 09 2017, 10:11

@lament.config wrote:
I'll take being able to do a wound to a vehicle on a six. I'd even count that as a minor buff if posion stays 4+.

Don't forget though that previously Poison was able to wound stuff that couldn't be wounded by other small arms fire. That's no longer the case as even the humble lasgun can wound anything now on a 6. Our splinter weaponry needs a solid rethink to remain useful and distinctive.

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Infantry is up   Tue May 09 2017, 11:27

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@lament.config wrote:
I'll take being able to do a wound to a vehicle on a six. I'd even count that as a minor buff if posion stays 4+.

Don't forget though that previously Poison was able to wound stuff that couldn't be wounded by other small arms fire. That's no longer the case as even the humble lasgun can wound anything now on a 6. Our splinter weaponry needs a solid rethink to remain useful and distinctive.
If our poison weapons are still wounding on a 4+ against targets that bolters and lasguns need a 5 or 6+ to wound then it's still better.
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Infantry is up   Tue May 09 2017, 11:28

@Devilogical wrote:
@krayd wrote:



Faster movement + pre-measuring means that you're more likely to get the charge, as long as you don't do anything stupid, because you can better keep your distance if you're unable to charge yourself, or move into charge range more easily.

I don`t realy hope for such a things.

It was said previously, for example, that terminators would move slow and low, while troupe of harlequins will run through the field like crazy. Look on terminators. They get a huge boost of +1 wound, but so slow... just 5th Mv. And thats for a deep striking unit (that will not scatter any more). How fast our units will become? Mv 7 is more than we can achive Crying or Very sad  It`s not a big change since 7th. Will we get some new boosts, like +ONE ATTACK in profile? I dunno.

And remeber, it`s not important who will charge first. Enemy will simply walk away next turn and your melee squad will be filled up if bullets. Sad
Why do people insist on comparing a single assault unit against an entire army, it's bloody stupid!
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Infantry is up   Tue May 09 2017, 11:37

@Imateria wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:
@lament.config wrote:
I'll take being able to do a wound to a vehicle on a six. I'd even count that as a minor buff if posion stays 4+.

Don't forget though that previously Poison was able to wound stuff that couldn't be wounded by other small arms fire. That's no longer the case as even the humble lasgun can wound anything now on a 6. Our splinter weaponry needs a solid rethink to remain useful and distinctive.
If our poison weapons are still wounding on a 4+ against targets that bolters and lasguns need a 5 or 6+ to wound then it's still better.

And if our poison weapons are still wounding on a 4+ where other weapons need a 2+ or 3+ then that's still worse. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make?

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Infantry is up   Tue May 09 2017, 12:03

Now, let's take a look at how our splinter weapons (based on Sw:A) do against the example of a Mork/Gorkanout.

18 wounds, save 3+, Toughness 8.

Splinter fire: hits on 3+, Wounds on 4+.  -1 Sv modifier.
0.166666666667 wounds Per shot.

Therefore 108 Splinter Shots to kill a Mork/Gorkanaut.

Not great, but we're doing better than Bolters, at least.  (Wounding on 6's.

Now, let's look at our Darklance: S8, AP2, Lance.  We don't have stats, but we'll assume it's roughly the same as a Lascannon.

So, S8, Sv:-3, Dmg: D3

Hitting on 3+, Wounding on 4+, dealing an average of 2 Damage per Wound,  save goes from 3+ to 6+.

Giving us 0.55555... Wounds per shot.

Meaning we need 32.4 shots to kill this thing.

Which, frankly, is crap.  Especially when compared to what 7the Ed Darklances did to a Morkanaught.

Assume front armour: 3+ to hit, 4+ to Glance, 5+ to pen(5+ to one shot).  And 5 hull points to deal with.
0.11111 Glances per shot.
0.14815 pens per shot
0.07474 wrecks per shot (insignificant)

Giving us a 33.4% chance of doing something per shot and needing 14.97 shots to kill it.

Unless the lance special rule does something like reduce the targets toughness by 2 when rolling to Wound (which would have the same effect as S10 in this system), we're stuffed against high toughness targets.




Another thing that really annoys me is the to-wound system.  Though not because it's a bad system.  No, because it's a good system that provides complexity and would be absolutely perfect for rolling to hit if GW had chosen to keep Weapon Skill in the game.
You know, as opposed to the stupidly granular system we have now that I can only see causing problems for our low strength, low toughness, bad save models that should be mitigating those problems by extreme skill and never getting hit.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Infantry is up   Tue May 09 2017, 12:15

@Ikol wrote:
Another thing that really annoys me is the to-wound system.  Though not because it's a bad system.  No, because it's a good system that provides complexity and would be absolutely perfect for rolling to hit if GW had chosen to keep Weapon Skill in the game.
You know, as opposed to the stupidly granular system we have now that I can only see causing problems for our low strength, low toughness, bad save models that should be mitigating those problems by extreme skill and never getting hit.

Agree with this. I'm still going to wait to see the full rules but I can totally see my group playing a hybrid version of 8e where Initiative returns, WS is dealt with as Ikol suggested etc. What I've seen of the rules so far is dumbing the system down way too much for my liking.

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Infantry is up   Tue May 09 2017, 13:09

@Count Adhemar wrote:
I can totally see my group playing a hybrid version of 8e where Initiative returns, WS is dealt with as Ikol suggested etc. What I've seen of the rules so far is dumbing the system down way too much for my liking.

All in favour of meeting up on the rules board once the five books have dropped to write a hybrid version of the core rules to address this?  Not just for DE, but for all factions?

Including things like WS, I and incorporating Movement Stats into the Advance and Charge systems.

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Infantry is up   Tue May 09 2017, 13:17

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Infantry is up   Tue May 09 2017, 20:36

@Ikol wrote:

Unless the lance special rule does something like reduce the targets toughness by 2 when rolling to Wound (which would have the same effect as S10 in this system), we're stuffed against high toughness targets.

This is my fear.

Any viable list will have to efficiently strip dozens of high T, good save wounds per turn.

Any faction that cannot do this will be bottom tier.
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Infantry is up   Tue May 09 2017, 20:58

Strength and toughness will not be a huge factor this edition. I think the armor modification from weapons, both hand and shooting, will be the real basis for list building.
Now that everything can wound anything, it negates the necessity for high strength, and high toughness is not the end all be all best defense it once was.

No, no... the modification to the armor save roll will be the most important aspect to inflicting damage this edition.

If my hypothesis is correct, i cannot forsee a ravager NOT being triple dissy cannons. If they have the same AP as dark lances, but triple the shots, it is a no brainer.

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Infantry is up   Tue May 09 2017, 22:01

@Skulnbonz wrote:
Strength and toughness will not be a huge factor this edition. I think the armor modification from weapons, both hand and shooting, will be the real basis for list building.
Now that everything can wound anything, it negates the necessity for high strength, and high toughness is not the end all be all best defense it once was.

No, no... the modification to the armor save roll will be the most important aspect to inflicting damage this edition.

If my hypothesis is correct, i cannot forsee a ravager NOT being triple dissy cannons.  If they have the same AP as dark lances, but triple the shots, it is a no brainer.

Unless DL are D6 wounds or if DL gets a special keyword.

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Infantry is up   Tue May 09 2017, 23:33

@Skulnbonz wrote:
Strength and toughness will not be a huge factor this edition. I think the armor modification from weapons, both hand and shooting, will be the real basis for list building.
Now that everything can wound anything, it negates the necessity for high strength, and high toughness is not the end all be all best defense it once was.

Wounding on a 3 or 4 is still a LOT better than wounding on a 6. You would have to have considerable extra volume of fire to make up for using weaker weapons - which often won't rend either.

As for disintegrators, until we know whether or not there is something built into the DL stat line to give it an extra advantage a la the lance rule, then I wouldn't assume that dissies will be the go-to for ravagers.
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Infantry is up   Wed May 10 2017, 00:13

Toughness won't matter much, strength will. The sweet spot will still be between S6-7 as most things are going to revolve between T3 and T8. The plus side is, poison will probably be effectively the same as S6 is currently, so our units are going to be stupidly powerful.

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Infantry is up   Wed May 10 2017, 00:53

What if the new poison rule were to be "the strength of all poison hits in a round of shooting is equal to the number of hits." You get 8 hits with your Splinter rifles in a round of shooting. They're all S8. You pour 3 Venoms worth of Splinter cannons into a Tyranid monster. Statistically its 24 S24 hits. It's way too strong, but I can dream. drunken

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Infantry is up   Wed May 10 2017, 03:32

This is my guess on how they will approximate our rules to what we have now. All vehicles will get the "unliving" special rule.

Poison special rule: Always wound on a 4+ except against a target with the "unliving" keyword.
Dark Lance Special rule: Subtract 2 toughness from the target when resolving a wound against a model with the "unliving" keyword, to a minimum of X(probably 8 ).

This would basically make poison function as it does now against most targets, while being able to wound vehicles on a 6+, and dark lances will lower the toughness of vehicles by -2, to a minimum of X(guessing T8 ).
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Infantry is up   Wed May 10 2017, 05:34

@Count Adhemar wrote:
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Twisted Evil

@BetrayTheWorld wrote:
This is my guess on how they will approximate our rules to what we have now. All vehicles will get the "unliving" special rule.

Poison special rule: Always wound on a 4+ except against a target with the "unliving" keyword.
Dark Lance Special rule: Subtract 2 toughness from the target when resolving a wound against a model with the "unliving" keyword, to a minimum of X(probably 8 ).


You've postulated an "unliving" rule for vehicles quite a few times now  Twisted Evil  (and I think it was suggested that Necrons and Rubric Marines should gain it as well Question).

It certainly seems to be a viable way of going about things, and it would allow for other interesting interactions.  Such as "Living" models having to take a Toughness test against a Flamer lest they keep on burning or something like that.  It could also play into blinding weapons (which Darklight should totally do, remember the fluff about permanent slash scars on the retina) and maybe even certain psychic disciplines and powers.

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