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 New lore, new edition, new worries.

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Tounguekutter
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PostSubject: Re: New lore, new edition, new worries.   Wed May 10 2017, 17:58

So I did some thinking, and I have reconsidered my position.

Consider the perspective of Cadian guardsman player: there are no two-ways about it. He cannot play his guardsmen as though they are defending a Cadia that has not yet fallen. And that sucks. And those changes in the GS story - like the Fracture of Biel-Tan - I dislike. But they are exactly what other players were clamoring for. Because Cadia falling is the antithesis of what Cadia is all about. Biel-Tan being shoe-horned into the Ynnari sucks for players who still want to play classic Biel-Tan. I wish GW had written something that didn't change things like that. And there is no easy way to unpaint out from that corner.

I still hold out hope that there will be fluff bones thrown in the future to Cadian and Biel-Tan players so that they can play like they used to - because I like Sir Allison and I want to see him do his thing.

My condolences @TeenageAngst


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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: Re: New lore, new edition, new worries.   Wed May 10 2017, 19:25

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Consider the perspective of Cadian guardsman player: there are no two-ways about it. He cannot play his guardsmen as though they are defending a Cadia that has not yet fallen.

I know a Cadian Guard player. He hates the new books too for the exact same reasons and it sucks because he nust finished 2000 points of guardsmen. He still plays his army as if they're defending Cadia because his Cadia never fell.

Quote :
But they are exactly what other players were clamoring for.

Other players can advance their own stories. Other players can do whatever they want with their own lore. Just leave mine to me.

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I still hold out hope that there will be fluff bones thrown in the future to Cadian and Biel-Tan players so that they can play like they used to

Yeah I hope GW gives me permission to imagine my space elfs how I want. Oh wait, I've been over this before. They can tell me Biel-Tan was destroyed. I can tell them their mom was destroyed. In my bed last night.

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Anarchistscourge
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PostSubject: Re: New lore, new edition, new worries.   Wed May 10 2017, 19:29

If your so against the story moving forward then ignore 8th and just play 7th. You said yourself you did it with dnd and 3.5. You've also just said your friend doesn't like it either. So you can play together with 7th edition or ignore the fluff changes and play with 8th rules

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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: Re: New lore, new edition, new worries.   Wed May 10 2017, 22:19

Ignoring it is all well and good until weird things start happening, like certain models or units jumping factions (Jain Zar being Ynnari instead of CWE is likely). And I'm not a fan of 7th, I like 8ths rules so far very much. I just think the lore is being written by a stooge.

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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: New lore, new edition, new worries.   Thu May 11 2017, 04:48

@TeenageAngst wrote:
Ignoring it is all well and good until weird things start happening, like certain models or units jumping factions (Jain Zar being Ynnari instead of CWE is likely). And I'm not a fan of 7th, I like 8ths rules so far very much. I just think the lore is being written by a stooge.

You keep saying JainZar is now Ynnari - she is not. Almost NONE of the eldar characters are ynnari through and through.

Eldar possess complex motivations and beliefs - They will act according to their own values in the story to suit the writer. Don't expect the warrior founders who founded the aspect warriors OF KHAINE to jump ship to another deity. They might fight alongside the Ynnari or join them for a time but their dedicated to the aspects of Khaine. That's not going to change.

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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: Re: New lore, new edition, new worries.   Thu May 11 2017, 18:34

The lore literally had her being reborn like she was the Apostle Paul so idk how she wouldn't be Ynnari now.

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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: New lore, new edition, new worries.   Thu May 11 2017, 20:49

I'd need to read that writeup. All phoenix lords are immortal(basically) and essentially go through a rebirth when they die, when someone else puts on the armour. It's probably where the name phoenix lords came from.(They rise like a phoenix from death)

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PostSubject: Re: New lore, new edition, new worries.   Wed May 17 2017, 01:04

All I know is it was part of the little bit I did read. Half the Phoenix Lords decided Ynnead was super important and Jain Zar led them by being reborn just like the Apostle Paul.

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PostSubject: Re: New lore, new edition, new worries.   Wed May 17 2017, 02:58

First off - all the phoenix lords go to fight at Yvraines side in that section, but led by Zar, not Asurmen. While it does say she was 'reborn' nothing in the book explains what this means or how or why. There is no reference to her joining the ynnari on a permanent basis.

As I have said previously, the Aspect warriors are literal aspects of Khaine and embody his traits in war. The phoenix lords founded the aspects - they are the most perfect representation of their Aspect of Khaine. They have no corporal bodies anymore and they exist to protect and expand the Eldar race.

The phoenix lords always turn up at important or pivotal moments for the eldar race. They are drawn to it. Thats been part of their thing since day 1. Ynnead being reborn and its herald and voice doing her thing certainly qualify.

NOTHING says she is Ynnari - or any of the phoenix lords for that matter... or Eldrad or Lilith or Illic or ... you get the idea. Only Yriel is now Ynnari as he its quite literally raised from the dead by Yvraine and even he does not explicitly join her, he just gets raised and carries one of the crone swords.

I will also add that your friend playing like Cadia never fell - it fell in 3rd ed during the world wide eye of terror campaign where chaos won... much like the first book of gathering storm actually!

I like to think of it that the work experience kid who is now in his 30's finally got through all the snail mail (cause that's how you submitted results) and the summary they published back then is now verified and accurate!

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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: Re: New lore, new edition, new worries.   Wed May 17 2017, 04:43

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While it does say she was 'reborn' nothing in the book explains what this means or how or why.

The book doesn't explain most things. None of them do. You're left to figure out just what the hell is supposed to be permanently canon and what's not. That's another reason why forging the narrative using the Gathering Storm is so frustrating because literally everything in there is playing Schrodinger's Plot Point.

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NOTHING says she is Ynnari - or any of the phoenix lords for that matter... or Eldrad or Lilith or Illic or ... you get the idea.

Nothing says they aren't either, that's the problem. Before you knew what they were. Now, who knows? Maybe they're one faction, maybe they're another, maybe they're both? I'm not coming up with entirely new lore for my armies and incorporating this ham-fisted writing only to find out I chose wrong in the next book.

Quote :
I will also add that your friend playing like Cadia never fell - it fell in 3rd ed during the world wide eye of terror campaign where chaos won... much like the first book of gathering storm actually!

I like to think of it that the work experience kid who is now in his 30's finally got through all the snail mail (cause that's how you submitted results) and the summary they published back then is now verified and accurate!

I'll mention that to him tomorrow at the shop. I'm sure it will renew his enthusiasm for his army and won't in any way come off as condescension.

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Ikol
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PostSubject: Re: New lore, new edition, new worries.   Wed May 17 2017, 14:43

I feel as though this has fallen to Straw-Manning on your part, TA.  https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cGZkCPo7tC0

That or content-less snarking...

Anywho:
On the topic of Eldrad, I think he's been Ynnari since before the Ynnari were Ynnari, and certainly since before GS (read: BS) was conceived.

There's an old piece of fluff that appears in one of the early Eldar Codices, and it details Eldrad, the ancient, dying, busy Seer seeking refuge from Slaanesh's constant soul-draining by sitting down in the middle of Ulthwe's Infinity Circuit.  At which point he 'lets down his psychic walls' and pokes around in the Infinity Circuits of all the Craftworlds and finds Ynead to have grown a little stronger than he was the last time Eldrad looked.

As for Illic: did he even appear?  If he did, I don't recall it.

My interpretations of Lelith sending the Cult of Strife to aid the Ynnari was less as a statement of loyalty and more as a fallback, or a foot in the door.  "If we can't get old Commoragh back under control, and new Commoragh turns out to be a dive, then I can keep myself safe from Slaanesh by means of joining the Ynnari Cults."
Agreement?  Or am I abstracting too much logic from the seventeen words that detailed the Cult of Strife's participation in the final conflict?  (Correct answer: yes)


Now, as for the Phoenix Lords and Jain Zar.
I personally found the choice of wording "reborn in a new light under the Ynnari" to be very very confusing and/or poorly thought out.

We have seen no evidence that the incarnation of Jain Zar at the start of the book has died and had another don her armour, and then GW tosses around phrases like 'reborn in the Ynnari' which implies a death-revival scenario akin to Yriel's scenario?

What?

So, no, what I think occurred is that the Phoenix Lords showed up and Jain Zar just managed to be the first out of the gate before Baharoth overtook her in the sky.  Asurmen was running the show, Fuegan, Irillyth and Maugan Ra were walking instead of sprinting because guns, whilst Karandras was slinking about in the shadows like a good Stealthy Scorpion.

Yvraine (almost but not quite our narrator), seeing the legendary figures of Khaines greatest warriors, those whose teachings dictated massive portions of Craftworld Culture rushing to the "Aeldari's" aide fan-gurls out and forgets to apply logic, and so assumes her totes-best-buddy-forever Jain Zar who stood up for her once in an argument was leading the charge in more ways than the physical.  And then explaining it to herself in a wangsty manner.

But that's just me and my dislike for Mary-Sue's talking.  What are your thoughts?

The Harlequins?  Sticking to our Lord and Saviour Cegorach's plan.

Eldrad?  "I got kicked out of my home and these nice clowns are helping me walk."

The Commorites?  "This is better than having our souls ripped out by Slaanesh."

The Biel Tani?  "We're sticking with this party because they owe us a new Craftworld and Yvraine is almost certain to skimp on the debt and run if we let her out of our sight."

Other Craftworlders?  "frak Slaanesh with a Scorpion Claw."

The Black Guardians?  "The stuck up pricks in Ulthwe's Seer Council deciding to kick Eldrad out doesn't invalidate the Millenia of work he has put into saving the Eldar race."

As for Yriel?  Totally Ynnari.  But annoyed that Yvraine won't just let him pay off the revival debt and get back to the pirate scene.

Thoughts?

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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: Re: New lore, new edition, new worries.   Wed May 17 2017, 19:53

Whatever works for you.
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Gobsmakked
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PostSubject: Re: New lore, new edition, new worries.   Wed May 17 2017, 23:32

@Ikol wrote:
I feel as though this has fallen to Straw-Manning on your part, TA.  https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cGZkCPo7tC0

That or content-less snarking...

I am inclined to agree with my fellow 'filthy Australian'. Pointless, baseless and negative hand-wringing, lets wait until we have the full facts facts in hand after the release before we engage sky-falling mode.

Locking Wracks engaged, thread closed.


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