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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: New lore, new edition, new worries.   8/5/2017, 10:43


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PostSubject: Re: New lore, new edition, new worries.   8/5/2017, 10:51

@Count Adhemar wrote:
I bet the Ultramarines are glad that times change otherwise they'd still be a 2nd founding chapter with a half-Eldar Chief Librarian!

I remember this and it was amazing! Ditto on the Inquisitor Obiwan Sherlock Clousseau!

If the game story never moved forwards, the primarchs, craftworlds and dark eldar, tau and a host of other things would never have happened and space marines would still be mercs with 'eat this' written on their las guns and shuriken catapults - which they used back then!

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PostSubject: Re: New lore, new edition, new worries.   8/5/2017, 11:28

The seeing evolves. It has to. If you dedicated time and money to your army and your background changes:
Hell, you got enough imagination and fantasy to create this in the first place. Can't you think of anything to make it work now? It's a universe filled with time travel, demons, segregation, civil war etc.
And you can't think of anything that makes your army work for you?
It's not like the fundamental facts of the universe have changed:
Warp? Still there
Chaos gods? Check
Eldar dying race? Yes.
Etc

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PostSubject: Re: New lore, new edition, new worries.   8/5/2017, 12:00

@Calyptra wrote:
You can't dismiss my games, stories, and armies as "fan fiction" when the game itself says they're integral - that's like calling someone's D&D game fan fiction. It's also why most RPGs don't "advance the narrative."

Ok, I apologise for using the phrase "fan-fiction". Maybe it wasn't the greatest way to explain it.
But what I meant was that whatever additional material we create for our own character and armies, they're never going to be canonical. There is an "author" (a corporate overlord in this case) who controls the narrative, and whatever we forge needs to mould itself around the existing narrative.
Thats all I meant to say.
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PostSubject: Re: New lore, new edition, new worries.   8/5/2017, 16:29

Quote :
If you dedicated time and money to your army and your background changes:
Hell, you got enough imagination and fantasy to create this in the first place. Can't you think of anything to make it work now? It's a universe filled with time travel, demons, segregation, civil war etc.
And you can't think of anything that makes your army work for you?

I can think if ways to make it work but it's not fun when I have to pull solutions out of thin air rather than follow my own plot. One is creative, the other is problem solving. Also why bother, the solutions will be overwritten themselves soon enough anyway.

As for taking a break, I haven't bought a model or played since shadowrun took over 40k day so unless you want me to just stop thinking about the game entirely idk how much more of a break I could take.

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PostSubject: Re: New lore, new edition, new worries.   8/5/2017, 16:37

Think about your characters as if they were in the real world. When would they ever further there own story? Never. It takes an event to act as a catalyst for change. From all your previous post I can gather 1 thing. Your armies / character story would never advance unless you want it to. That's not how things work. Stories advance and the characters have to advance with it. You get to decide how this happens. You say GW are forcing you to advance your own story. Just like when you came up with their backstories it's YOUR choice. Everyone here has pointed to a multitude of solutions that can work or even mean that not much changes for you. Eldar still have access to the infinity circuits of other craftworld. I know you don't want to change but it's simple...do or don't.. No one is forcing you. It's not GW fault that there advance isn't compatible with your story. Im sure it's affected others, but they also have a choice. The story and resulting changes are catering to the masses

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PostSubject: Re: New lore, new edition, new worries.   8/5/2017, 19:12

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Your armies / character story would never advance unless you want it to. That's not how things work. Stories advance and the characters have to advance with it.

Quote :
I know you don't want to change but it's simple...do or don't.. No one is forcing you.

What?

If you're going to tell me I'm playing tiny plastic space elfs wrong can you at least be consistent when you do it ô_o

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PostSubject: Re: New lore, new edition, new worries.   9/5/2017, 02:26

Sometimes all you can do is roll with life's punches. I don't like using named characters either too often. Or if I do I paint them as my own custom person. Even then when I do use a named guy I know in advance fluff could change for him or even be killed off.
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PostSubject: Re: New lore, new edition, new worries.   9/5/2017, 09:18

True, half the 5th Edition codex roster disappeared into the fluff without models or rules. Also, I've been rolling with life's punches a lot lately, which is probably why I care so much about fantasy-scifi-action-imagination-land. It's my escape, but now it's different, so all I have left is Overwatch and watching the Weather Channel while sprawled out on the futon and eating peanut butter out of the jar with a spoon.

Anyway, I was writing a thing about my Autarch in the new lore as proof that yes, I am capable of adapting to the new fluff, I just don't want to, but then I realized I was also using it as an explanation of how I like my stories, and how the Gathering Storm is a bad story IMO, and things got out of hand, and it got too big, so now I feel like I can't not post it, but I don't want it to be too obnoxious, so it's in the spoiler.

Spoiler:
 

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PostSubject: Re: New lore, new edition, new worries.   9/5/2017, 10:21

Lileth isn't hanging out with Yvraine personally. She sent part of the Cult of Strife to seek her out. It would be interesting if she was seeking her out for nefarious reasons. It feels sort of shorned in the book, leaving the player to still be able to use her if they choose to run Ynnari.
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PostSubject: Re: New lore, new edition, new worries.   9/5/2017, 15:44

I feel your pain, and understand the problem.

But I do not feel like it is false advertising, and things might not have changed as much as you now fear, although I do agree things will change, and you will not like them judging by your comments.

Then again you are playing in a setting and you can expect some minor changes in the setting but rarely any major ones. (Although also in D&D massive overhauls were done between different versions of the game). But the major point is that GW has a bunch of writers making stories in their setting. If you use more then just their setting but also the specifik well documented people in their stories for your own stories expect them to be used by them also.

I like Gaunts ghost's and could see myself writing and building an army around them, but if I then read that some of the ghosts die I will hate it like you do right now. But if I would not have wanted that I should have invented my own stealth based commisar general, not used the prefab copywrited name of GW. Same goes with craftworld bieltan, lelith etc. They are trademarked by GW so they can (and you could probably have expected) use it in their own stories.
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PostSubject: Re: New lore, new edition, new worries.   9/5/2017, 18:47

Gaunts Ghosts is a serial story though, it never sells itself as a setting. 40k did, explicitly, for years. Forging their narrative was their #1 reason for not advancing the timeline and it was one of the few things Kirby got right.

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PostSubject: Re: New lore, new edition, new worries.   10/5/2017, 00:08

Much though i hate to add to the general hand-wringing, i do agree with Mr Angst. 40k is a setting for us to make stories in, not a story in itself. Absolutely right that it's one of the main things Kirby got right. If you must have plot development in 40k, make it about the little people and build engagement by having compelling characters, not by spewing out massive revelations and larger-than-life characters that come off as cartoonish.

If the stories we're told of 40k revolve around big heroes doing big things, it makes tye universe around them feel small and insignificant. If the stories we here are about the near-hopeless struggle of regular people doing what little they can against a universe that's gone to hell makes the universe feel big.

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PostSubject: Re: New lore, new edition, new worries.   10/5/2017, 05:01

@TeenageAngst wrote:
True, half the 5th Edition codex roster disappeared into the fluff without models or rules. Also, I've been rolling with life's punches a lot lately, which is probably why I care so much about fantasy-scifi-action-imagination-land. It's my escape, but now it's different, so all I have left is Overwatch and watching the Weather Channel while sprawled out on the futon and eating peanut butter out of the jar with a spoon.

Anyway, I was writing a thing about my Autarch in the new lore as proof that yes, I am capable of adapting to the new fluff, I just don't want to, but then I realized I was also using it as an explanation of how I like my stories, and how the Gathering Storm is a bad story IMO, and things got out of hand, and it got too big, so now I feel like I can't not post it, but I don't want it to be too obnoxious, so it's in the spoiler.

Spoiler:
 

Ok, I understand your perspective a bit more now, having read your spin on your character's story. That said, while the story was fine from a literary perspective, there are several disconnects insofar as an understanding of Eldar society goes, unless I'm the one who is mistaken here.

You mention supplies and such as being part of the reason for him disbanding his army to begin with, but aside from relics of religious nature or something, Eldar don't really want for material possessions. They grow items they need from wraithbone, essentially forging their vehicles, weapons, and armour out of pure psychic energy. That is what ultimately led to the fall. They could just WILL any material thing they wanted into existence, and that led them to seek experiences, rather than material THINGS. Those experiences slowly got more and more twisted as these ageless beings had experienced all things mundane, and so moved on to thinking things like, "Hmm, I've never done cocaine off of a hookers tits while torturing 32 babies before...let's try that."

The point being, even with biel-tan destroyed, I couldn't see them lacking in materials. The eldar problem has never been one of wanting for armour or tanks, but rather for the bodies to wear the armour, and the asses to sit in the cockpits. In that respect, he'd be in a similar position to before the fall of biel-tan.

Also, biel-tan the "craftworld" was basically a bunch of ships that had flown together for a long time, and essentially connected to one another at docks, through wraithbone bridges, etc. From what I understand, that connection was broken, but biel-tan craftworld is still largely intact, just as a fleet instead of a bunch of ships glued together into one big supership.

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PostSubject: Re: New lore, new edition, new worries.   10/5/2017, 05:24

@BetrayTheWorld The purpose of my story was to illustrate how yes, I can adapt to the new fluff, no, I don't want to, and no, the Gathering Storm II book was written by a trained monkey. You are literally picking apart tiny lore nuances of a story I wrote while on the can. The pivotal point was not the supply level, that was just a handy excuse. The point was he didn't want to wage war on his own people even though they were turncoats. Plus I like to imagine that the Eldar still need to trade and import SOME goods and such, and that a fleet spending decades out at war would be low on some materials, even if those materials are capable of being turned into anything, like in a giant space elf 3D printer or something. It makes them a little more relatable. Also whether it was a bunch of ships glued together or one supership doesn't really detract from the fact they ain't together no more.

@Ynneadwraith this guy gets it too. What's the purpose of having our dudes if they're not the cornerstone in the world we're supposed to be forging the narrative in? I'll take Sir Allison over that bimbo Yvraine any day.

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PostSubject: Re: New lore, new edition, new worries.   10/5/2017, 06:55

And why isn't Sir Allison working to rebuild Biel-Tan? That sounds precisely like the good guy thing he would do given the situation (in between cleansing of course). Is that too big a change for you? Maybe your Biel-Tan are getting supplies from grateful Maiden world Eldar they have saved, or some unnamed mysterious beings? Anything can still happen in the 40k universe, and anyone who says no is (in my humble opinion) not trying hard enough to think of how their scenario could play out within the setting of the game. As far as I can tell BetrayTheWorld has given you all the creative backdoor you need to write yourself out of this situation and into one in which your Biel-Tan are doing what you think they should be doing. I think you can try a little harder to think of ways in which your army can be itself in this new environment. Best of luck to you succeeding.

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PostSubject: Re: New lore, new edition, new worries.   10/5/2017, 07:25

Quote :
And why isn't Sir Allison working to rebuild Biel-Tan? That sounds precisely like the good guy thing he would do given the situation (in between cleansing of course).

Because he hates the Ynnari, because he believes in restoring his own forces and the infinity circuit first, but most importantly and fundimentally of all, because that's not what I want him to do.

Quote :
Is that too big a change for you?

Yes.

Quote :
Maybe your Biel-Tan are getting supplies from grateful Maiden world Eldar they have saved, or some unnamed mysterious beings? Anything can still happen in the 40k universe, and anyone who says no is (in my humble opinion) not trying hard enough to think of how their scenario could play out within the setting of the game.

Oh is it a setting now? I thought it was a story. Because stories advance, they squat entire chunks of personal lore, personal lore my own codex told me to forge. Settings don't, they're set, like a stage for you to act out your own stories. Hence the name "setting".

Quote :
As far as I can tell BetrayTheWorld has given you all the creative backdoor you need to write yourself out of this situation and into one in which your Biel-Tan are doing what you think they should be doing.

And as far as I can tell, not Betray or GW or you can tell me I'm imagining my tiny plastic space elfs wrong.

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I think you can try a little harder to think of ways in which your army can be itself in this new environment.

Why? Why on god's green earth do you think I need to do that? What about the way I imagine my own army is not exactly up to @Tounguekutter's snuff?

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PostSubject: Re: New lore, new edition, new worries.   10/5/2017, 07:42

@TeenageAngst wrote:
As for taking a break, I haven't bought a model or played since shadowrun took over 40k day so unless you want me to just stop thinking about the game entirely idk how much more of a break I could take.

That's exactly what I am saying.

Stop being engaged with the game and community - completely.

I took a big break - nearly a year judging from the missing white dwarves! - at the end of 2nd ed because I had my group separate, lost some of the passion and drive to hobby and play (read this as discovered girls Rolling Eyes ) and basically left the game. I boxed up my stuff, chucked it into the wardrobe and did other crap. No forum chats (in their infancy back then), no gaming, no list writing, no buying white dwarf, nothing.

When I came back, which was accidentally as my girl friend at the time saw a white dwarf at a newsagent and bought it for me since she had seen it at my place before, we (as in the Dark Eldar) now existed and it was 3rd ed - I knew them as pirates/corsairs from second ed - and we had models, were in the starter set and more. It gave me back a bunch of passion for the game as I now had new stuff to experience and learn.

You are literally working yourself up more and more by feeding your own negativity. You need to disengage and take stock. You need perspective.

Burnout is a real thing for anything in life and the hobby is no different. Disconnect from the hobby - for at least a month - no painting, no forums, nothing - box it up and remove it from sight if you can. Stop following facebook pages (stay liked) and similar. Do something else - anything not tabletop. At the end of the month, see how you feel about returning. I suspect 3 months would be better - or even 6.

You can gradually re-enter the hobby if you find yourself WANTING to at any time, but right now - all this toxic thought cycle will do is make you more and more jaded with things until you hate it... and once you hate it, you will sell out and leave.

Don't let the thing you once enjoyed become something you despise.


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PostSubject: Re: New lore, new edition, new worries.   10/5/2017, 07:46

@Massaen wrote:
@TeenageAngst wrote:
I don't have a page reference, I read it in the summery posted on dakkadakka.

Quote :
Maybe the fact that the story gives you an opportunity to evolve those characters further is one you should relish rather than fear. Nothing changes much if you look at it since as I pointed out, none of the relevant parties moved in whole. Even BielTan still exisits but as a fleet, not a single ship

A fleet without an Infinity Circuit that is dedicated to the traitorous Ynnari. Can you even call those true Eldar anymore? And I can evolve my characters all I want. I prefer to do it on my own, at my own pace. I don't need some terrible writer in a cubicle somewhere telling me how it went. I know how it went, because they're my dudes and it's my narrative. Except not anymore according to GW. Thank god for an advancing storyline though. Adds so much fun to the game. I can't wait to see what I have to write off next!

AH - got ya - so rather than actually reading the book yourself you are relying on 3rd hand summary accounts... right... Suspect

To be fair, as someone who owns and has read the digital copy myself...

"The writing of GSII could be summarised as 'undiluted crap'.  The story had no through-line and just barely managed to connect to the formerly defined universe.  The character of Yvraine was about as Mary-Sue as a Mary-Sue character could get without becoming a caricature (though it was very close).  The character interractions were meaningless, the points about which the narrative supposedly swung (The dysjunction of Commoragh, The Fracture of Biel-Tan (special points for the title piece being scarcely relevant), yet another dead Avatar of Khaine (I'm surprised that any Craftworlds have one left at this point), the true awakening of Ynnead and the Yncarne's rise to power) were all treated to GW's specialty "yeah, we'll tell you this happened but it won't have any actual after-effects within our own story, or lead to anything other than an ass-end-backwards plot 'progression'.

Whilst things that were stirring, things that were actually written with a shred of competency -such as Eldrad being cast down by the Seers of Ulthwe, the Phoenix Lords appearing as one united force to drive Chaos from the sacred hallows of the Webway and Tzeench personally presiding over a battle- were cast aside with such a paltry lack of care that the entire book seemed to scream "Please let us go back to talking about Space Marines".

A sentiment further felt when the narrative's end point, its final words, the last thing to pull at the readers mind before the book is closed and set aside hopefully on a fireplace; "As incredible as the webway's lambent architecture was, it was a mere precursor to the glory that would follow - the vector by which the allies would strike out for their true destination.

The realm of Ultramar, and Macragge."

I think that TA is perfectly in their right to complain about the poor manner in which Games Workshop has thus far handled the narrative, and support her arguments whole-heartedly.

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PostSubject: Re: New lore, new edition, new worries.   10/5/2017, 08:03

I never said the writing was good - her/his arguments are about the fact the narrative has moved at all and that his/her armies personal fanfic is now not what they wanted.

Like or not - the narrative HAS moved.

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PostSubject: Re: New lore, new edition, new worries.   10/5/2017, 08:06

@Massaen I'm only upset about the lore, and much like how WoW's lore was smacked with the stupid stick, no amount of time and distance is going to fix that. The rules of 8th edition have me very hopeful.

Quote :
Don't let the thing you once enjoyed become something you despise.

You mean like my ex-wife?

Quote :
I think that TA is perfectly in her right to complain about the poor manner in which Games Workshop has thus far handled the narrative, and support her arguments whole-heartedly.

Thanks, I could tell from my skimming of the book it wasn't worth the time to actually read the entire thin--wait.

Quote :
perfectly in her right

her

Oh no.

Quote :
Like or not - the narrative HAS moved.

Maybe yours has, mine hasn't.

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PostSubject: Re: New lore, new edition, new worries.   10/5/2017, 08:10

Missed a "t" and an "i"!!!

My bad!!!

(I'm pretty sure, from my cursory glance at your 'Really terrible videos about tiny plastic space elfs intended to help you get get gud scrub', that you're male. Sorry if the mistake caused any offence.)

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PostSubject: Re: New lore, new edition, new worries.   10/5/2017, 08:17

@Massaen wrote:
I never said the writing was good - her/his arguments are about the fact the narrative has moved at all and that his/her armies personal fanfic is now not what they wanted.

Like or not - the narrative HAS moved.

Really?  Fair enough, I can see how that interperation could be found.

But I read it more as something much more similar to the (widespread) outcry over Matt Ward's Ultramarine fauning.  and the occasional appearance of nonsensical things like people in Terminator Armour doing backflips and spiritual Lieges; that the narrative was constructed poorly.

I don't think that they are complaining about having to adjust their narrative to suit something new, but instead complaining about having to adjust their narrative to suit something that is poorly constructed.

Could we get a weigh in on this, @TeenageAngst?

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PostSubject: Re: New lore, new edition, new worries.   10/5/2017, 08:26

Quote :
I don't think that they are complaining about having to adjust their narrative to suit something new, but instead complaining about having to adjust their narrative to suit something that is poorly constructed.

Could we get a weigh in on this, TeenageAngst?

I have 2 issues that, if either one were done right, would alleviate the other. The first is that the story advanced at all, because the story is actually a setting, and that by advancing it you are inherently monkeying with the narratives GW's own books told people to forge. There's no reason this entire thing couldn't be happening in some corner of the universe somewhere with new characters and new Eldar and new Space Marines. But they chose to advance the plot, which brings up issue 2, that they didn't use brain one when outlining it. It's terribly written and executed. There are no caveats or provisions made for those of us who liked it the way it was, and no resolution on any of the changes, so the entire thing is left as an ambiguous and muddled series of events that may or may not be expanded upon later.

I'm open to new things, new races, new rules, new planets, new characters, new factions. I just don't want my fluff monkeyed with so that some chump can tell me I'm playing with my imaginary elfs wrong.

_________________
Really terrible videos about tiny plastic space elfs intended to help you get gud scrub:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCcZP8WGIhte5TmCWQXsZO4A

Flawless pieces of literary perfection:
https://www.fanfiction.net/u/2805979/
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PostSubject: Re: New lore, new edition, new worries.   10/5/2017, 09:52

I know it sucks, but it is still the setting of GW.
They were often asked to advance the story in that setting.
They need to refresh some things just to keep new people invested and feel like they are not playing a game that is 30 years old, for the youth often don't like it and even a large part of the older players will want to rebuild an army or start a new army when the lore changes. Thus they want to make changes to a setting to increase sales. Even if they lose some people because they do not like the changes. With the new edition it is not strange new lore comes. You mentioned D&D before, their whole world half of the gods and magic itself died, then the "small changes" GW has made now are not that significant. Even though it might rub ou the wrong way your army is still valid, how people react and how they interact with others might be different, but at least Biel tan and eldar still exist. GW has before and probably will again also erase entire races and cultures. Just be glad you did not make an old tyranid army based on Zoats (which as brainwashed slave/mercenaries for the tyranids make no sense anymore with current idea of the tyranids), or actually wrote anythng about their weapons (which were still weapons and not part of the creature themselves originally), or more recent changes like a Squad army which has been banned by GW since they could not copywrite the name.

Settings are rarely ever completely set. It will work a little while, but after some time most people will lose interrest. And for quite a few people part of the fun is describing how your characters react to the changes of the worlds around them.

All that being said, I really understand what you mean, the writing has been less then optimal and some of the changes really feel like they were forced just for the sake of the change. I myself am not entirely happy with the ynnead either, nor with the destruction of the squads, but all of that is part of the problem of playing in a setting that is not made by you, but under the control of someone else whose ideas and motivations are different then yours.
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