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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: Re: New lore, new edition, new worries.   Fri May 05 2017, 19:40

See, this guy gets it. This is why people like D&D worlds so much, it's rich in lore and history but it's all a SETTING for your adventures. 40k was the same way but not anymore.

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PostSubject: Re: New lore, new edition, new worries.   Fri May 05 2017, 22:59

I think 40k has changed more than a few times since it was first a setting.
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PostSubject: Re: New lore, new edition, new worries.   Sat May 06 2017, 00:05

TeenageAngst wrote:
My Biel-Tan general is now either homeless, living on some colony somewhere like a filthy Australian, or aligned with the Ynnari, all of which are equally terrible fates. My Kabal I have no idea because they lived in the lower city and god only knows what's left of that. My Iyanden/Ulthwe Eldar... I don't know since half of them are Black Guardians and the other half are all Wraith units. I guess they're all Ynnari now?

This is the problem though. I like my dudes how they were, but now I need to pick between having them relevant or having them true to their own original lore. I could go back to any point in the last 2 decades of the game and none of this would even be an issue. Now it is.

Ok, Lilith never joined the ynnari that I can find in GS2 - in fact, almost none of the major characters did in any permanent way. Allowing them to be used in the Ynnari is about allowing flexability and showing the characters motives are fluid.

I also think that while I am sure the comment about filthy aussies was tongue in cheek - its also out of order.

NONE of the eldar craftworlds, kabals, harlequin troupes completely and wholesale joined the ynnari - its a massive, very polite cold civil war.

I don't see how these changes affect your armies history at all.

40k has seen the lore rewritten EVERY edition in some way or another. RT was a huge group of puns and jokes with jabs to pop culture. 2nd was making the setting more serious. 3rd was a huge rules overhaul and parts of the story changed to match. 4th-7th all had similar little changes to the lore to suite what ever campaign had been produced (my blackguardians with WWP from 3rd/4th still weep).

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PostSubject: Re: New lore, new edition, new worries.   Sat May 06 2017, 02:22

Rogue Trader contained those things, but it wasn't primarily made up of them. It was definitely a lot weirder though.

I have an honest question for people who want to see GW advance the narrative:

How does GW advancing the narrative improve your gaming experience?

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PostSubject: Re: New lore, new edition, new worries.   Sat May 06 2017, 02:35

For me personally it's more about the setting getting stale. The story moving along also gives an opportunity for new characters etc. Look at the past year for example. GW have advanced the story for 1000 sons and wulfen bringing in the swanky new thousand sons models and now there brining back primarchs like magnus and girlyman

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PostSubject: Re: New lore, new edition, new worries.   Sat May 06 2017, 05:15

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Ok, Lilith never joined the ynnari that I can find in GS2 - in fact, almost none of the major characters did in any permanent way.

Jain Zar was reborn and Lelith dedicated her entire Cult to it. Riddle me that, Batman.

Quote :
its a massive, very polite cold civil war.

I don't see how these changes affect your armies history at all.

You don't see how a massive cold war that involves several settings being completely upturned could in any way impact the story of someone's characters? K.

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PostSubject: Re: New lore, new edition, new worries.   Sat May 06 2017, 10:16

Massaen wrote:


I also think that while I am sure the comment about filthy aussies was tongue in cheek - its also out of order.


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PostSubject: Re: New lore, new edition, new worries.   Sat May 06 2017, 15:00

TeenageAngst wrote:
Quote :
Ok, Lilith never joined the ynnari that I can find in GS2 - in fact, almost none of the major characters did in any permanent way.

Jain Zar was reborn and Lelith dedicated her entire Cult to it. Riddle me that, Batman.

Quote :
its a massive, very polite cold civil war.

I don't see how these changes affect your armies history at all.

You don't see how a massive cold war that involves several settings being completely upturned could in any way impact the story of someone's characters? K.

Phoenix lords are reborn when they die - that's nothing to do with ynnari. Page reference for th cult of strife joining wholesale? Ditto on Jain Zar?

Maybe the fact that the story gives you an opportunity to evolve those characters further is one you should relish rather than fear. Nothing changes much if you look at it since as I pointed out, none of the relevant parties moved in whole. Even BielTan still exisits but as a fleet, not a single ship

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PostSubject: Re: New lore, new edition, new worries.   Sat May 06 2017, 18:49

I don't have a page reference, I read it in the summery posted on dakkadakka.

Quote :
Maybe the fact that the story gives you an opportunity to evolve those characters further is one you should relish rather than fear. Nothing changes much if you look at it since as I pointed out, none of the relevant parties moved in whole. Even BielTan still exisits but as a fleet, not a single ship

A fleet without an Infinity Circuit that is dedicated to the traitorous Ynnari. Can you even call those true Eldar anymore? And I can evolve my characters all I want. I prefer to do it on my own, at my own pace. I don't need some terrible writer in a cubicle somewhere telling me how it went. I know how it went, because they're my dudes and it's my narrative. Except not anymore according to GW. Thank god for an advancing storyline though. Adds so much fun to the game. I can't wait to see what I have to write off next!

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PostSubject: Re: New lore, new edition, new worries.   Sat May 06 2017, 19:19

I'm personally excited for 8th, but I have the perspective of someone who sold my rulebooks/army 3 months ago before I even got to play the system. I'm about to by my Dark Eldar army and any lore changes that happened in the new books will just be normal to me as I learn about them, so I guess for a new player the new edition is arguably a good thing.
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PostSubject: Re: New lore, new edition, new worries.   Sat May 06 2017, 20:54

TeenageAngst wrote:
I don't have a page reference, I read it in the summery posted on dakkadakka.

Quote :
Maybe the fact that the story gives you an opportunity to evolve those characters further is one you should relish rather than fear. Nothing changes much if you look at it since as I pointed out, none of the relevant parties moved in whole. Even BielTan still exisits but as a fleet, not a single ship

A fleet without an Infinity Circuit that is dedicated to the traitorous Ynnari. Can you even call those true Eldar anymore? And I can evolve my characters all I want. I prefer to do it on my own, at my own pace. I don't need some terrible writer in a cubicle somewhere telling me how it went. I know how it went, because they're my dudes and it's my narrative. Except not anymore according to GW. Thank god for an advancing storyline though. Adds so much fun to the game. I can't wait to see what I have to write off next!

AH - got ya - so rather than actually reading the book yourself you are relying on 3rd hand summary accounts... right... Suspect

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PostSubject: Re: New lore, new edition, new worries.   Sat May 06 2017, 23:47

With all due respect, let face it. Every "my own chapter/craftworld/kabal/characters/whatever" comes down to one basic thing - fan fiction.
At the stage where you're adding your own material to someone else's world is exactly that - fan fiction.
I'm not saying thats bad, but we can't get agitated when the originator of the work decides to advance their story. It is ultimately their story. We simply have to adapt our own material and advance our own stories in a new way.
If you don't want to, fine, you don't HAVE to. YOu can easily say your army is themed as a "historical pre-Ynnari force". Thats your call.

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PostSubject: Re: New lore, new edition, new worries.   Sun May 07 2017, 03:11

I'm gonna go back to it being a setting, not a story. We, the players, are supposed to be telling the stories here. It's always been that way; it's why you are supposed to have a game master in Rogue Trader and it's why there was all the stuff about "forging the narrative" in recent editions. It's why we're given all the options for units and characters, so that we can write them and make them our own. It's why we build our own, unique models, like the game company says we should.

You can't dismiss my games, stories, and armies as "fan fiction" when the game itself says they're integral - that's like calling someone's D&D game fan fiction. It's also why most RPGs don't "advance the narrative."

The fundamental point of all of this is a gaming experience. GW advancing the narrative directly interferes with the experience they are explicitly offering.

There are plenty of books and movies for when I want to enjoy someone else's story. I am here to play games, and part of playing this game is making our own characters and stories.

I agree that it's gotten a bit stale, but I don't think it has to do with story. I'm tired of Space Marines. I'm particularly tired of the same 12 Chapters of Space Marines over and over and over when there are supposed to be a thousand of them. I'm tired of Cadians, when the regiments of the Guard are supposed come in every shape and color. I'm tired of Orks that all look the same. I'm *really* tired of the Horus Heresy.

I think 40k became stale because they stripped so much diversity out of it. Valhallans and Mordians and Tallarns are all but gone. The Ork Klans are basically gone except in name (they used to each have their own model range).

I think that what 40k needs is Skitarii and Genestealer Cults and Harlequins. I think it needs Klans and new Guard regiments. I want to know more about the other Craftworlds. I want to know more about the Badab War Chapters. I want the Squats back, and Slann and Zoats. Even the recent books are full of references to places and creatures that I want to know more about. I want to know more about the Ghoul Stars and the Pale Wasting. I want to know more about the Cacodominus, the Ymga Monolith, the Hrud, the Enslavers.

I do not want to know more about Ultramarines. I've literally been hearing about Ultramarines for decades.

Players are invited to participate in this setting and make it their own. That's part of what makes all the hours of model-building worthwhile. If I had spent the hundreds of work hours necessary to build a Biel-Tan army, I would be really upset at my Craftworld being destroyed. I think it's problematic to expect that kind of commitment from players and then destroy or fundamentally alter lore concepts that you've not only invited them to take ownership of, but also expected them to spend countless hours building models for them.

I get that not everybody wants to play the game like this. Heck, there are people who don't want to assemble and paint models (despite this being a hobby about assembling and painting models), and the scope of interaction with this game is great enough that we can all play and get something out of it. However, if GW is selling a product that says it is about me making my own characters and armies in this setting and then playing narrative games in this setting, maybe they shouldn't directly interfere with that by blowing up my planet or Craftworld.

Here's another way of looking at this. If doing this interferes with my game experience and doesn't improve yours, maybe it's not a great idea.

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PostSubject: Re: New lore, new edition, new worries.   Sun May 07 2017, 05:21

What are the feeling on the 3rd edition Eye of Terror Campaign? It too pushed the narrative forward but was it different because it was done though player interaction? Where does the setting and it's "rules" stop and the player's narrative begin?

I will begin by saying that I have to agree, I don't like the current writing for the Gathering Storm campaign books; for me it is to focused on the heroes with a lack of focus on the grunts (the poor Cadians are pretty much ignored in the narrative on their own world). Also, thinking about it, is it me or does the Gathering Storm seem like they are using the old Eye of Terror Campaign as a very basic framework for pushing the narrative forward and dialing it up to cartoonish levels with the Superheroes saving the day? Expanded Warpstorms, Eldrad leading the Black Guardians of Ulthuan in the war, The Cadian System having a strong concentration of the Imperium's military might poised to hold off the next wave of chaos that might not come (like in the Eye of Terror campaign Chaos is scattering their forces and striking other assets instead of grinding it out as a unified force in the Cadian System though in The Gathering Storm Cadia fell rather than barely holding and being in shambles).

With that out of the way, yes I agree, it is a setting first and foremost but unfortunately it is a setting that is created and directed by someone else. Like anything you can do what you want in your own gaming rooms but as soon as you involve those outside your tight "RPG" like group and deal with people in the wider world what you chose to do with your own narrative inside that setting can have problems. D&D was used as an example so I'll use it as an example as well. If I create a narrative that completely destroyed Drizzt, body and soul so that he could never come back, how much of the fan base would be on board with that if I went to a convention?

Unless I create my own setting I'm always subject to the narrative aspects of the creators. Unless I and my gaming group want to create spin off settings to play in I will never be able to truly own the actions and story my character undergoes. I can't have my Archon steal Luna for the fun of it outside of my "rpg" group because it would never be accepted by a large chunk of the community no matter how well I wrote it. My Archon can never replace Vect for the same reason. When using a setting created by others you are always going to be second fiddle to the creator's narratives and we either have to get people together who are willing to play scenarios that break out of the narrative's confines or we have to look at the curve balls thrown at us and adapt to a changing world we don't have complete control over.

When you play an RPG you are still subject to the whims of the GM, you either pick up your character and walk out when he does something to your character you didn't want to happen or you adapt and try and figure out how that character would deal with an unfair world where he lacks complete control over what happens.

I may not like the presentation and direction GW has chosen for the setting but in the end I either have my Biel-Tan Autarch shoot himself in the head in despair or have him tighten his belt and start to pick up the pieces to rebuild his home and people if I am unable to find people willing to play games that could take place prior to GS/alternate world where the Ynnari never came to be.

Well those are my thoughts on the matter. It is for us the players to figure out how we choose to deal with the changing world as individuals. Will you step up to deal with the world or will you step out of the world?


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PostSubject: Re: New lore, new edition, new worries.   Sun May 07 2017, 05:23

Calyptra get out of my brain. But I agree completely.

This is Star Wars Prequel bad but in reverse. All I want is to have fun with my narrative but these changes make that difficult. I can't just ignore Biel-Tan blowing up if all the changes moving forward involve Biel-Tan blowing up. What is my Autarch gonna do with his dead soldiers spirit stones, put them in a safe deposit box? How is he going to resupply his warship if the Craftworld doesn't exist anymore and it's remnants were taken over by traitors? Are all his aspect warriors still loyal in spite of their Exarchs and iconic heroes switching sides? I mean I guess these are stupid questions about imaginary space elves and I should stop caring about the game I invest my time in. Jar Jar was cool.

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PostSubject: Re: New lore, new edition, new worries.   Sun May 07 2017, 06:19

You can answer all of those questions about your own force. For me, "forging the narrative" means creating the story of how my specific army fits into the greater scheme that GW puts out, so if commoragh falls completely, if I have a commoragh street gang, I need to decide how that went down. Did they get some information letting them know the crap was hitting the fan and zip off to another area of the webway? Did they put up a valiant defense of the city before being crushed, with only remnants of their forces remaining to relocate to another webway realm to plan their revenge? Were they completely destroyed? Or were they conveniently away on a realspace raid when it all happened, with the majority of their dark eldar resources still in place? These are all things for me to decide, and fits fine within my own narrative, unless you want 100% control over the future of not just your army but the entire universe surrounding them, and that is simply unrealistic.

I WANT the story to move forward. You can still have a Cadian army. You just need to fit your story to the timeline, and tell how your specific army fits into all of it. Nothing they're doing changes the BACKGROUND of your forces. It's just about the FUTURE of your forces, which you still have nearly 100% control over. They haven't really killed off anyone important. They advanced the setting, while leaving all of the elements for you to tell your own story within that setting in place.

This is why, generally, I'm in favor of not using "Eldrad" or other named characters in my armies, but rather a character of my own making, with my own backgrounds, simply using Eldrad's rules. If you approach the game like this, a change in setting is a fantastic opportunity to advance and develop the storyline of your own army.

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PostSubject: Re: New lore, new edition, new worries.   Sun May 07 2017, 08:47

Quote :
You can answer all of those questions about your own force. For me, "forging the narrative" means creating the story of how my specific army fits into the greater scheme that GW puts out, so if commoragh falls completely, if I have a commoragh street gang, I need to decide how that went down. Did they get some information letting them know the crap was hitting the fan and zip off to another area of the webway? Did they put up a valiant defense of the city before being crushed, with only remnants of their forces remaining to relocate to another webway realm to plan their revenge? Were they completely destroyed? Or were they conveniently away on a realspace raid when it all happened, with the majority of their dark eldar resources still in place? These are all things for me to decide, and fits fine within my own narrative, unless you want 100% control over the future of not just your army but the entire universe surrounding them, and that is simply unrealistic.

It wasn't unrealistic for the past 20 years. Also you admitted yourself you don't care about how you get from one point in a plot to another, just that you get there. The dots can be connected however, it doesn't matter, as long as they connect. I am of a very different standard. I hate poor writing, poor motivation, deus ex machina, and bad characters, so this entire thing forces me to change my armies in ways I don't want to in order to fit what is IMO a very stupid narrative.

Quote :
I WANT the story to move forward. You can still have a Cadian army. You just need to fit your story to the timeline, and tell how your specific army fits into all of it. Nothing they're doing changes the BACKGROUND of your forces. It's just about the FUTURE of your forces, which you still have nearly 100% control over. They haven't really killed off anyone important. They advanced the setting, while leaving all of the elements for you to tell your own story within that setting in place.

I'm glad you like this new storyline, @BetrayTheWorld and I'm glad you're having fun with it. I'm not. People like me are not. People like me have to change fundamental parts of our army lore that we enjoy to fit what we consider a poor narrative. GW took my toy and changed it so people like you would like it more. That isn't fun. It wasn't fun when WoW did it, it wasn't fun when Sigmar did it, and it's not fun when 40k does it.

Quote :

This is why, generally, I'm in favor of not using "Eldrad" or other named characters in my armies, but rather a character of my own making, with my own backgrounds, simply using Eldrad's rules. If you approach the game like this, a change in setting is a fantastic opportunity to advance and develop the storyline of your own army.

In spite of my usual sarcasm I mean this with 100% sincerity:

Good for you.

Those who like the story as a setting though were given absolutely zero consideration however. All you're doing is suggesting I just start liking it. I won't like it no matter how it is sliced because that's not why I'm playing this game. 8th could very well be AoS for me.

Lemme explain my AoS army. Sigmar is an ok game. I have fun with it. My entire High AELF army was removed from the storyline and I never followed Fantasy fluff so they exist entirely as "just some High AELFS." Why invest time in a story for an army that isn't in the lore and in a lore that's constantly changing? The AELFS are all grey plastic as I only just finished salvaging them from their state of disrepair. I deploy nothing but infantry usually, and in formations that move and fight in formations because I like that. I don't pay attention to command benefits and points if I don't have to. I play to win, but I rarely do, and I don't frankly care if I win or lose. I just wanna march an army of AELFS around the board and kill Soulgrinders with arrows. I play the game with absolutely zero personal investment in the lore or army itself, I only care about rolling dice and moving mice. I am the most cancerous player in the hobby shop because of this, regardless of how courteous a player I am or how tough or not tough an opponent. Other people don't want to play an unpainted trash list. I don't want to paint and put personal lore into an army that has no place in the game world. So we split the difference and roll dice and when we're done my minis get crammed into little cardboard boxes while my opponent carefully places theirs in $200 foam carrying cases. No stories are ever told of our games. No one remembers them. No one cares about them particularly. It was just a game.

That's the difference this personal investment one has in their army makes. That's it I'm so frustrated. I don't want my Dark Eldar to be shoved into cardboard boxes because I stopped caring. I don't want to field grey plastic because painting models isn't worth the effort when that Craftworld could get blown up next.

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PostSubject: Re: New lore, new edition, new worries.   Sun May 07 2017, 11:50

By that logic, the story could NEVER progress, but with every single codex update, the story has been progressing for 20 years. It's just that that progress has been in micro-jumps instead of the macro-jump we recently had.

This isn't something completely new, advancing the story. It's a matter of degrees. So yeah, a big event occurred. They hit the gas pedal after 20 years of babying it, but let's not pretend no advancement EVER occurred.

3 years ago, we were concerned about the advancement of the DE plotline, and whether or not Vect would be unseated by someone like Lady Malys. If the story NEVER advanced, what was everyone so worried about? This. Is. Not. New. It's just a higher volume of advancement in a shorter release schedule.

We've always had the threat of setting changes hanging over us. So no, I don't really empathize with people who have a problem with advancing the history of their army(since it totally could still exist without a hitch). That would be like feeling sorry for the guy who gets a flat tire and ends up stranded because "he doesn't believe in spare tires".

It's silly to shoehorn yourself into a situation where you can't be at all flexible in a setting that has been evolving for 20 years, even if the previous rate of evolution was significantly slower than what we're seeing now.

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PostSubject: Re: New lore, new edition, new worries.   Sun May 07 2017, 12:41

Previous "advancements" were sideways glances at the universe from different angles. Much like how every iteration of Forgotten Realms has had the same Forgotten Realms with different ways of "how I heard it" applied. No one just suddenly removed the Drow from the Underdark and gave it entirely to the Gnomes. No one filled in Undermountain. The elemental plane of Earth didn't blow up. I have no problem with new factions, new rules, new places to go, and new people to see. My problem is when those come at a ridiculous cost.

Also, slow advancement of the story allows us to absorb and incorporate it rather than knee-jerk react. It's the difference between letting coffee steep in a French press and shoving that sucker down the moment you put the lid on. Which is gonna make a better cup?

But none of that matters because like you said, you can't empathize with people who's armies' stories are ruined by the new lore. Because to you it's just connecting the plot points from A, where your army is, to B, where they need to be to still be relevant. Because the hows and whys and whats don't matter, just connect the dots. Just come up with a reason why your army is still doing things. Literally any reason. Any at all. It doesn't matter if it makes sense, or if it's something your army would do, or if it entirely changes the motivation of your characters, it doesn't have to. Internal consistency, characterization, and motivation don't add a single thing to narrative play, just make it work. This game isn't about your dudes. It's about the world, and the world is changing, so change your dudes and stop complaining.

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PostSubject: Re: New lore, new edition, new worries.   Sun May 07 2017, 13:00

That's not what I said, and I'll thank you to halt putting words in my mouth any further.

Insofar as advancements not being advancements, but rather retelling from a different angle, that simply isn't the case. There is a timeline included in a codex, and that has been steadily creeping forward with new releases. If it were only different tellings of the same story, no one would have been worried about Vect being removed, because that is a story advancement, NOT a retelling from a different angle.

As for things not moving at a snails pace, it seems you've forgotten the prologue: In the grim darkness of the far future, there is only war.

Sorry your war didn't knock first. The fact is, I can take virtually ANY backstory that someone has for their army, and come up with 37 different scenarios where they still exist and are fine with using their old rules/fluff, unless said group's backstory is literally: They stay in X location at all times, never leaving, and they will never move unless they all die.

Which is an absolutely awful backstory to begin with. But even then, I could progress their story. It would just change them from "never" moving, to "requiring the complete destruction of X location" in order to move.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I don't see a problem here, except a couple people wanting a completely static environment. If you don't like the WAY the story progresses, I can understand that. But thems the breaks when someone else is the one writing the story. If you don't want a story at all, well you're playing the wrong type of game.

As for named characters, I don't think there is a single named character involved in all of this who's story didn't get MORE interesting, further developing their character, with the sole exception possibly being Lelith.

And Lelith is debatable. After a thousand years as the undisputed champion of the arena(or however long it was), having never had a blade so much as graze her flesh, one succubus who's walked the path of both the aspect and the corsair manages to give her a flesh wound, and it was THIS succubus that the Eldar god of death chose to be her prophet, once Lelith dirt napped her.

To me, this is cool development of Lelith's story. Someone FINALLY came close enough to nip her heels, and such an accomplishment was this, that a freaking GOD chose that person as their voice, because unfortunately, said god couldn't wait around forever waiting for Lelith to lose. Wink

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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: Re: New lore, new edition, new worries.   Sun May 07 2017, 13:25

Quote :
I don't see a problem here, except a couple people wanting a completely static environment. If you don't like the WAY the story progresses, I can understand that. But thems the breaks when someone else is the one writing the story. If you don't want a story at all, well you're playing the wrong type of game.

I really liked having a lower city Kabal trying to scrape their way up the ladder, maybe to owning their own satellite realm. Now the lower city is entirely owned by Mandrakes and the satellite realm gates are all closed. Welp... that was fun while it lasted. Yeah my Kabal could have been out on a raid while all that happened, but without the premise of their existence or the motivation of their ambitions I have to come up with new stuff for both, and at that point, is it even the same story? Oh boy, they get to be homeless in Commorragh until... something happens I guess and they find a new home. You can taste the intrigue and drama! And I guess all their allies somehow survived too because I'd really hate to have to repaint all those models as well so... yeah! This is way better than internal political backstabbing and theatrical violence.

And my Autarch, I mean yeah, he could have been out on campaign while this whole mess happened. But how's he gonna give his honored dead a ceremony without the Biel-Tan infinity circuit? How's he going to rectify the fact his entire home was destroyed, and what's left is run by traitors? What's going to happen to all the aspect warriors he commands who's iconic heroes follow the Ynnari now? What's going to happen to all those maiden worlds he helped defend of cleanse? How's he even going to get back home with all the Biel-Tan webway gates being closed? Any one of these would be "an interesting plot development". All of them put together are "a reason to kill off the character and repaint the army".

In both cases the plot conflicts between what was a sound story well constrained by the fluff and is currently almost wholly incompatible with the existing narrative. The problems with my lore and the new lore have compounded upon themselves to the point one of them has to break. Not bend, not modify, not addend, break.

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PostSubject: Re: New lore, new edition, new worries.   Sun May 07 2017, 17:03

I disagree that it conflicts. X happened. It's up to you to decide how that relates to your specific army. If, for you, that means your entire army died in defense of the craftworld and you repaint your army to be something else, that's a decision that you personally make. But the keyword is decision. You still control the destiny of your personal story within the setting put forth by GW.

Is your character considered the greatest duelist in the universe? Fine, he still is, but the universe is different now. Begin creating a new infinity circuit, which is certainly a long process, but fortunately for the basically immortal eldar, they have the time. Or commit their souls to one of the many other infinity circuits still intact on other craftworlds. There are too many possible scenarios to attempt to go over here, and almost all of them are interesting twists in a characters story. There is nothing more tragic and endearing than a grisled commander who's ENTIRE WORLD was destroyed, who is out for revenge. Maybe your autarch HATES Ynneade now, AND those who follow her. Maybe he feels betrayed by those iconic heroes who now fall lock-step into following the prophecy. Maybe now, you have others within your force who step up and fulfill the roles that the phoenix lords used to fill(using the PL's rules/equipment) as they deal with being betrayed by their heroes.

These are all far more interesting scenarios than most of the fanfiction and backstories I happen upon online.

I legitimately don't see the problem. I'd hope that you and others would be as optimistic as me about it, and I am really trying to help get you there, but it seems like you're not really interested in looking at it from another perspective, or adding any big events to the timeline of your forces, so I expect we won't reach any sort of accord here.

I'm sorry you feel the way you do about the advancement of the story. I wish I could help.

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PostSubject: Re: New lore, new edition, new worries.   Sun May 07 2017, 17:39

Quote :
I disagree that it conflicts. X happened. It's up to you to decide how that relates to your specific army. If, for you, that means your entire army died in defense of the craftworld and you repaint your army to be something else, that's a decision that you personally make. But the keyword is decision. You still control the destiny of your personal story within the setting put forth by GW.

That's just it though, are these decisions that should have to be made in the first place? No one should ever tell someone what to do with or how to play their dudes, not even GW. What kind of colossal mistake was made between here and there that people have to change their dudes to fit the narrative rather than the players doing it the other way around? The tail is wagging the dog.

Quote :
Is your character considered the greatest duelist in the universe? Fine, he still is, but the universe is different now. Begin creating a new infinity circuit, which is certainly a long process, but fortunately for the basically immortal eldar, they have the time. Or commit their souls to one of the many other infinity circuits still intact on other craftworlds. There are too many possible scenarios to attempt to go over here, and almost all of them are interesting twists in a characters story. There is nothing more tragic and endearing than a grisled commander who's ENTIRE WORLD was destroyed, who is out for revenge. Maybe your autarch HATES Ynneade now, AND those who follow her. Maybe he feels betrayed by those iconic heroes who now fall lock-step into following the prophecy. Maybe now, you have others within your force who step up and fulfill the roles that the phoenix lords used to fill(using the PL's rules/equipment) as they deal with being betrayed by their heroes.

An entirely plausible scenario but also a very depressing one considering it requires the player to undermine their own narrative, that they forged, to fit the new one. I like my jovial, gentlemanly Autarch. Having him out for blood takes that fun away. But I also can't think of a scenario where his entire world is destroyed and corrupted by traitors where he isn't either angry or depressed, because that's how people act when cataclysmically bad things happen.

Quote :
These are all far more interesting scenarios than most of the fanfiction and backstories I happen upon online.

People are entitled to their backstories however terrible or contrived they may be.

Quote :
I legitimately don't see the problem. I'd hope that you and others would be as optimistic as me about it, and I am really trying to help get you there, but it seems like you're not really interested in looking at it from another perspective, or adding any big events to the timeline of your forces, so I expect we won't reach any sort of accord here.

It's the World of Warcraft scenario. Everything changed, the adventures you went on and the gear you collected don't matter anymore. Oh sure, we're not taking them away, but they're just entirely irrelevant now in the face of whatever terrible new stuff we've produced. There's a reason I quit WoW, and I don't wanna quit 40k because this hobby is how I maintain my sanity. I also don't want it to turn into the pragmatic tribute to stoicism that is my AoS army, where I refuse to invest myself at all in it because "they already blew the world up once they might do it again" and my entire army has been retconned.

The issue isn't that I *can't* advance my storyline. My issue is that I can't advance my storyline *and* keep the character of my armies the same. I like the underclass Commorragh feel of the lower city Kabal I invented, but now the lower city is gone. I like the personality of my Autarch, but that has to change. I hate the Ynnari, and now they're everywhere. Having my fun Autarch be a bloodthirsty revenge seeking murderer or a homeless resentful vagabond or a Ynnari protestant Calvinist doesn't inspire me to make cool narratives or lists, it just makes me wish I was playing with the old lore again. Having my Kabal hiding out in realspace or miraculously moving to the upper city just makes me wish they didn't have to change in the first place. It's like watching the Rick Berman movies of Star Trek.

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PostSubject: Re: New lore, new edition, new worries.   Sun May 07 2017, 20:40

Honestly, it sounds like you are trying to make the 40k tabletop game into an RPG.

Forgotten realms shifted in HUGE ways over the years with gods deserting the world, then walking the earth. You seem to have forgotten that bit.

When I play an RPG I put all the thought into the character, how he fits and what it means for him in the world. We play games, make earth changing decisions and kill famous enemies... which does diddly squat to WotC and how they want their world. Why would a tabletop game be any more special?

Your back story has to be updated IF YOU WANT TO KEEP IT UP WITH THE CURRENT FLUFF. As the fluff means NOTHING to anyone else, its up to you - and your decision is only yours. What does it matter to anyone but you how you view it?

You keep talking like Ynnari ARE all the eldar now - that's simply not true. Nor is all of Biel Tan Ynnari or all of the lower city of commoragh - its a huge civil war (albeit mostly a cold war) where religion and ideology are the key. Most of the existing characters have no one side and will fight for either if it suits them and their chosen goals. That shows growth in character - not the removal of it.

It simply sounds like you hate any sort of change. Times change, things change, people change - that's life. You either embrace it, learn to live with it or move just on. Based on how upset you are, maybe a break from 40k is what you need? Come back with fresh perspective?


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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: New lore, new edition, new worries.   Sun May 07 2017, 21:18

I bet the Ultramarines are glad that times change otherwise they'd still be a 2nd founding chapter with a half-Eldar Chief Librarian!

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