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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: New lore, new edition, new worries.   Wed May 03 2017, 08:35

The Fracture of Ally McBiel was so bad I had the urge to drink bleach just reading a summery, but with the next edition coming around, I'm worried I won't be able to even play my old army anymore. What I mean is, Lelith Hesparex, Jain Zar, etc. all joined the Ynnari. What if that malignant carcinoma of a plot twist ends up meaning that in the new edition, those units are Ynnari exclusive? My Lelith model is one of my favorites, I'd hate to only be able to field her in a Ynnari list. Also, what about Biel-Tan, how are my grav-tanks supposed to fight for the Swordwind when there's no more webway portals to/from Biel-Tan anymore? Also did like, all of Biel-Tan and Iyanden and Ulthwe just agree that yeah, they're totally down with this Ynnari thing? Does that mean that if craftworlds are given "chapter tactics" or given craftworld formations like the factions in AoS have, would they be used only by the Ynnari as well?

Basically I was willing to just ignore the Gathering Storm books in their entirety so long as it didn't impact my ability to play the game, which by and large it didn't. However, now that the new edition is coming out, I'm worried there's going to be some gerrymandering of units into one or the other factions, a blurring of the lines between them, and basically no way of keeping the new fluff out of my otherwise perfectly good army.

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PostSubject: Re: New lore, new edition, new worries.   Wed May 03 2017, 08:55

You're worried. And your point is...?

At this state everything is pure speculation.

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PostSubject: Re: New lore, new edition, new worries.   Wed May 03 2017, 09:08

I mean it is and it isn't. We're seeing the game move with the compass needle firmly planted in AoS territory. With the rules and releases being almost mirror images of AoS I would put money on things like a Syvaneth book but for Eldar coming out, where it just has all the factional lore and more importantly all the army lists that you need to run the army properly. I'm upset this basically means I'll have to choose between running Ynnari or running my favorite models, as that's what's happened in AoS but with AELFS.

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PostSubject: Re: New lore, new edition, new worries.   Wed May 03 2017, 09:13

The biggest non-fluff element of FoBT was the ability to take (almost) any Aeldari unit in a Ynnari army. There was no suggestion that any of the units, even the 3 specific Ynnari faction models, were to be restricted to only Ynnari armies and there's no reason for GW to introduce that now. What benefit would that bring to GW? Would it sell more models? I don't see how it would. If anything, it would reduce sales as certain models would not be available to some armies that would otherwise take them.

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PostSubject: Re: New lore, new edition, new worries.   Wed May 03 2017, 09:34

I mean yeah I guess that's true, and if it's AoS-icized that means we could take Guardsmen, Wyches, Wracks, Lelith, and a freaking Dreadknight together. But the faction-specific armies laid out in the AoS books give such monumental bonuses you gotta be some kinda rube not to run them, meaning there's only a few viable builds for each army, meaning we're kinda at the mercy of what GW will write into those army lists.

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PostSubject: Re: New lore, new edition, new worries.   Wed May 03 2017, 13:39

Rename character and use lelith's rules. You got a character befitting your army and a bitchin model. Problem solved. If the lore is crap, narrate your own.

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PostSubject: Re: New lore, new edition, new worries.   Wed May 03 2017, 15:04

If all the named characters in the Ynnari battle host would become ynnari exclusive there would be no named character in the CWE and DE armies, with exception of Urien.
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PostSubject: Re: New lore, new edition, new worries.   Wed May 03 2017, 15:47

On the webway portals... um the Craftworld Eldar do still have the technology to build new ones, so maybe they set out to build some new ones. In the Doom of Mymerea it is mentioned that the Eldar ships can generate webway portals on planets they are in orbit of to deploy troops and while it is risky the Eldar do still have warp travel capability on their ships so it isn't like they have no means to move and redeploy.

Also you could be playing your fluffy Dark Eldar and Craftworld Eldar lists prior to the events of The Gathering Storm (well I guess your narrative gets disrupted if your opponent is running papa smurf).

I doubt that they new edition will be written in a way that prohibits you from playing your armies painted in the colors of those who joined the Ynnari unless they are being played as Ynnari.

@Logan Frost wrote:
If all the named characters in the Ynnari battle host would become ynnari exclusive there would be no named character in the CWE and DE armies, with exception of Urien.

Accept for Baron Sathornyx, Drahzar, The Decapitator, Duke Sliscus, Vect, and Malys for the Dark Eldar.  Craftworlds on the other hand have been screwed over and would need to have new characters added.
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PostSubject: Re: New lore, new edition, new worries.   Wed May 03 2017, 16:11

@CurstAlchemist wrote:
Baron Sathornyx, Drahzar, The Decapitator, Duke Sliscus, Vect, and Malys
As Sir Alec Guinness would have said:
Those are names I haven't read in a codex in a long time.
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PostSubject: Re: New lore, new edition, new worries.   Wed May 03 2017, 16:52

Quote :
Rename character and use lelith's rules. You got a character befitting your army and a bitchin model. Problem solved. If the lore is crap, narrate your own.

I'm fond of Lelith though, or I was. Before this crap started. I wouldn't be so put off by it if I didn't come up with a really nice use for all those night spinners and fire prisms I had laying around after buying those start collecting boxes. A turn of the century Eldar armor and artillery general is really fun to play without all the usual Eldar jetbikes and spiders.

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PostSubject: Re: New lore, new edition, new worries.   Thu May 04 2017, 07:34

I can only suggest what Ive been doing which is flat out ignoring the Gathering Storm books and treating them as non canon. Mind you I suppose its not that easy if you play the game frequently.
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PostSubject: Re: New lore, new edition, new worries.   Thu May 04 2017, 08:43

That's what I've been doing too but frankly it's going to become more difficult because the new books, new models, and new armies are going to all be based around advancing the storyline. My gaming store is full of Space Marine players so we have several Guillimans running around for instance. Plus, s a writer and a fluff lover the approach they took bothers me on several levels.

This has happened before of course from 1st to 2nd to 3rd+ editions where it went from tongue in cheek space battles with goofy heavy metal guys from 1st and 2nd edition to the ultra-serious-grim-darkness we have in 7th. I like my fluff right dead in the middle, where the lore is well done, takes itself seriously enough that you can invest yourself in it, but also includes those jabs, winks, and nods that say "hey, this is just how we heard it." 3rd edition writing is right in my sweet spot in that regard. Someone put in the time to make sure everything makes sense but it's loose and flexible enough that, while everything is canon, it isn't necessarily true.

8th edition, or the Gathering Storm books in particular, feel like they're trying to bring us a little closer to that goofy early 90s aesthetic what with the fantastical adventures and the Eldar and the Imperium tag-teaming like it's the WWE or something against overwhelming Chaosy odds. The problem is the writer is both clearly out of his depth and also unsure what the overall objective is aside from checking boxes and moving characters from setting to setting, sometimes just physically if necessary. That meant the story read like a history book with actions scenes crowbarred in there. Names were dropped, encounters happened and then quickly ended with no follow up or resolution, and in the Gathering Storm II a group of Mary Sues were basically going everywhere doing everything for everybody as exposition fell like manna from heaven. There was no sense of "how I heard it", no feeling of making room for your dudes. Because this isn't about your dudes, it's about these special characters. Do you have a Cult of Strife army and don't want to be part of the Ynnari? Too bad. Do you have a Kabal living in the lower city? Better stock up on Mandrakes. Did you have an Iyanden wraithhost but like the idea of not-reborn psychic necromancy to the Ynnari lore? Oh well.

The end result is a confused, unsatisfying mess, which is probably the most apt sentiment 7th edition could have going out the door. Razz

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PostSubject: Re: New lore, new edition, new worries.   Thu May 04 2017, 10:41

@TeenageAngst wrote:
Because this isn't about your dudes, it's about these special characters. Do you have a Cult of Strife army and don't want to be part of the Ynnari? Too bad. Do you have a Kabal living in the lower city? Better stock up on Mandrakes. Did you have an Iyanden wraithhost but like the idea of not-reborn psychic necromancy to the Ynnari lore? Oh well.

The story of your dudes is your own to make. Lelith didn't send the entire Cult of Strife. Even if she had surely there's a power vacuum in the Cult. Are there any succubus that might what Vect's favor by being a double agent? Kabal in the lower city? Perhaps they moved up from or struck some sort of deal with the mandrakes. It doesn't mean you have to take mandrakes to prove it. As far as the wraithhost, maybe they were part of a scouting fleet that haven't arrived back to the main fleet or encountered Yvraine. I do not know why they wouldn't like the reborn though considering it gives the wraiths more sentience and memory and the CWE seem like they could get behind that idea.
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PostSubject: Re: New lore, new edition, new worries.   Thu May 04 2017, 11:25

Lelith joined the Ynnari? Ugh.

Maybe it's a phase, and she'll grow out of it?

This is part of why I categorically don't use special characters.

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PostSubject: Re: New lore, new edition, new worries.   Thu May 04 2017, 16:31

I've never really used Lelith as Lelith anyhow. I used her model and rules, but changed her name and fluff to be my own.(In the extremely rare instance I used her, since she isn't particularly competitive)

As a matter of fact, I don't use ANY named characters as who they are, with the exception of phoenix lords, because I like painting my armies in the colour schemes that I choose, rather than according to the colour schemes and fluff that GW puts together.

I just use their models and rules. If anyone is like, "Whoa, Lelith doesn't wear red, bro."

I can just be like, "You're absolutely right, good sir, but this sexy lady right here isn't Lelith Hesparax. She is Lelly Hasderjax, and she wears red, k?" Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: New lore, new edition, new worries.   Fri May 05 2017, 00:27

To this day I still run The Vile and the Emasculators in every list that isn't a all Wych or Coven list.
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PostSubject: Re: New lore, new edition, new worries.   Fri May 05 2017, 03:25

@BetrayTheWorld wrote:
"Whoa, Lelith doesn't wear red, bro."

Who's to say she has exactly one battle-worthy outfit? Do you think the Goddess of the Arena doesn't have a closet to match?

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PostSubject: Re: New lore, new edition, new worries.   Fri May 05 2017, 05:02

@Tounguekutter wrote:
@BetrayTheWorld wrote:
"Whoa, Lelith doesn't wear red, bro."

Who's to say she has exactly one battle-worthy outfit?  Do you think the Goddess of the Arena doesn't have a closet to match?

NO! She's a character with a themed faction, and so she may only have clothes that fit her theme! Don't you know anything about TV characters!!?!? Her closet should look like this, except with black thongs and stuff:



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PostSubject: Re: New lore, new edition, new worries.   Fri May 05 2017, 05:07

@lament.config wrote:
@TeenageAngst wrote:
Because this isn't about your dudes, it's about these special characters. Do you have a Cult of Strife army and don't want to be part of the Ynnari? Too bad. Do you have a Kabal living in the lower city? Better stock up on Mandrakes. Did you have an Iyanden wraithhost but like the idea of not-reborn psychic necromancy to the Ynnari lore? Oh well.

The story of your dudes is your own  to make. Lelith didn't send the entire Cult of Strife. Even if she had surely there's a power vacuum in the Cult. Are there any succubus that might what Vect's favor by being a double agent? Kabal in the lower city? Perhaps they moved up from or struck some sort of deal with the mandrakes. It doesn't mean you have to take mandrakes to prove it. As far as the wraithhost, maybe they were part of a scouting fleet that haven't arrived back to the main fleet or encountered Yvraine. I do not know why they wouldn't like the reborn though considering it gives the wraiths more sentience and memory and the CWE seem like they could get behind that idea.  

See, all of that has me working around terrible plots though. Perhaps this happened, perhaps that happened, who knows? But things do need to change though, something needs to happen to bring your dudes in line with the new setting, however convoluted it might be. My Biel-Tan general is now either homeless, living on some colony somewhere like a filthy Australian, or aligned with the Ynnari, all of which are equally terrible fates. My Kabal I have no idea because they lived in the lower city and god only knows what's left of that. My Iyanden/Ulthwe Eldar... I don't know since half of them are Black Guardians and the other half are all Wraith units. I guess they're all Ynnari now?

This is the problem though. I like my dudes how they were, but now I need to pick between having them relevant or having them true to their own original lore. I could go back to any point in the last 2 decades of the game and none of this would even be an issue. Now it is.

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PostSubject: Re: New lore, new edition, new worries.   Fri May 05 2017, 07:29

I get where you coming from but I don't see a the point in getting worked up over it yet. Unless you know something that we don't. We have no idea if these units will be ynnari specific or not. As to the fluff it's annoying that they have changed something you obviously love, but it happens all the time with games and TV series. Just gotta deal with it

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PostSubject: Re: New lore, new edition, new worries.   Fri May 05 2017, 21:31

Except it didn't happen in 40k for over 2 decades. That was the selling point. Also tv series and video games don't encourage me to make my own stories out of their setting and then pull the rug from under me. This is wholesale deception.

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PostSubject: Re: New lore, new edition, new worries.   Fri May 05 2017, 23:56

Well not rwally wholesale. They didn't exactly turn round and say "you know what, we're not going to change the story ever" just because historically they haven't I'm the past doesn't mean it shouldn't. I feel bad that you've got some lovely fluff behind your army, but the way I see it you continue to play as is and ignore the story advancement or you embrace it and bring it into your fluff. With regards to the units you like moving to ynnari...well it's possible but extremely unlikely. I think my point is there's no use worrying about what could be. What a few more weeks and when they release 8th if your not happy then you can moan

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PostSubject: Re: New lore, new edition, new worries.   Sat May 06 2017, 00:24

The community has been asking for a story advance for a long time. If anything they gave you even more of an option for your own lore. Has your Kabal moved out of lower city? The lore heavily for shadowed the Dysjunction was coming. Did they move on a rival Kabal and take higher ground? Did your Autarch go rogue after not excepting Yvraine as the emissary of the new god of death? That's all up to you.
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PostSubject: Re: New lore, new edition, new worries.   Sat May 06 2017, 01:37

@Anarchistscourge wrote:
Well not rwally wholesale. They didn't exactly turn round and say "you know what, we're not going to change the story ever" just because historically they haven't I'm the past doesn't mean it shouldn't. I feel bad that you've got some lovely fluff behind your army, but the way I see it you continue to play as is and ignore the story advancement or you embrace it and bring it into your fluff. With regards to the units you like moving to ynnari...well it's possible but extremely unlikely. I think my point is there's no use worrying about what could be. What a few more weeks and when they release 8th if your not happy then you can moan

It's deception. They sell it as one thing, and then give you another. It's a bait and switch. If it wasn't they wouldn't be buying back codexes. I guarantee that idea came not from marketing but from the legal guy. And ignoring the story advancement won't work for long. As is it's borderline impossible with people running Primarchs and Ynnari left right and center.

Quote :
The community has been asking for a story advance for a long time.

If dakkadakka and BoLS is any metric, the community at large has the functional intelligence of an 8 year old and doesn't know a good thing when it has it.

Quote :
If anything they gave you even more of an option for your own lore.

I had plenty of options before. This is like a flood taking out the entire first story of your house and someone saying "hey you have more options for new furniture now."

Quote :
Has your Kabal moved out of lower city?

Yup they just moved out. Their belongings are all in mini-storage as they try to find an affordable apartment but in the meantime they're staying with family. No, wait, that's my friend from college. No, they're still where they were.

Quote :
The lore heavily for shadowed the Dysjunction was coming. Did they move on a rival Kabal and take higher ground?

Idk you tell me.

Quote :
Did your Autarch go rogue after not excepting Yvraine as the emissary of the new god of death?

You know the scene at the end of Brood War when
Spoiler:
 

Quote :
That's all up to you.

Is it really though? Or is it only up to me until the next book comes out and I gotta start from scratch again? It's kinda hard to invest myself in forging the narrative when my entire narrative may suddenly become invalid in the game world it's supposed to take place in. Kinda makes it not worth doing at all. Kinda ruins the entire point of the narrative aspect of the game in fact. It makes it feel like maybe I'm not the one forging it, that I'm playing a video game or something and the story is predetermined. It just doesn't activate the ol' almonds, ya know?

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PostSubject: Re: New lore, new edition, new worries.   Sat May 06 2017, 03:38

Saying that "the community wants GW to advance the story" implies that there's a consensus - which there clearly isn't - or a majority, which I don't think can be demonstrated. There are a bunch of people in the community who want GW to advance the story, and have been saying so for years.

There are a bunch of other people, like me, who don't want GW to do that. I think 40k is a game setting, and not a story at all. I want to be able to tell my own stories in my own games and not have GW officially contradict my narrative with their next release. Yes I can ignore whatever I like, except that games are shared experiences, and I would prefer not to have to discuss every piece of lore with the people I play with in order to determine what we do and do not agree is "canon."

(I'm also not sure I trust GW to write their way out of a damp paper bag. It doesn't help that when they "advanced the narrative" in Fantasy, they blew it up, and then replaced it with something I don't like.)

I really like Warmachine - both the setting and the game - but the constant advancement of story effectively renders the events in any game I play meaningless. That's a lot of why I'm not playing Warmachine these days.

40k is a setting, and the story should be the game you play in it.

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