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The Red King
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PostSubject: 8e - Fight Phase   Tue May 02 2017, 15:04

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Fight Phase   Tue May 02 2017, 15:08

Quote :
Units that activate gain a free 3″ move towards the closest enemy. This can be used to get within 1″ of other enemy units, if you’re cunning, dragging more foes into the melee and preventing them from shooting next turn, even if you didn’t charge them directly (giving them no chance to overwatch). Enemy gun lines will need to be careful about how they position their supporting units, so as to avoid getting dragged into the fight too.

Translation - you're going to want BIG units so you can spread out and drag half the enemy army into combat.

Translation of translation - buy more models!

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Fight Phase   Tue May 02 2017, 15:09

A notable rule is:

"Units that activate gain a free 3″ move towards the closest enemy. This can be used to get within 1″ of other enemy units"

So you can Mutli charge with the 3" consolidate move each activation.
So this mean I can have  multi combats, but sense we alternated after the 1st turn of CC, it is very important to pick the right combats in order to consolidate into more units.

Potentially 1 melee unit could start and be in 2 combats, you could have 2 units fighting 3-4 different combats after the 1st round.

And this:
"There are a few units that can interrupt this sequence to attack out of turn too – Tyranids with lash whips and Slaaneshi Daemons, for example – and it can also be influenced by Stratagems (more on these soon) if your army is Battle-forged, all of which add a nuanced level of tactical depth to the phase."

This gives me hope for Shard NetS and Hellions

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Logan Frost
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Fight Phase   Tue May 02 2017, 15:25

The fixed 3+ to hit and the stratagems, which we should have in abundance, are really picking my curiosity.
If our ruleset is been remade from the ground up it could be interesting

But don't let me stop the doomsayers from preaching the end of everything.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Fight Phase   Tue May 02 2017, 15:27

@Logan Frost wrote:
The fixed 3+ to hit and the stratagems, which we should have in abundance, are really picking my curiosity.
If our ruleset is been remade from the ground up it could be interesting

But don't let me stop the doomsayers from preaching the end of everything.

I would Imagine units like Succubus and Lilith will be 2+ to hit.

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Logan Frost
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Fight Phase   Tue May 02 2017, 15:30

I'd put the archon in there too.
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Hen Tai, the tentacle guy
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Fight Phase   Tue May 02 2017, 15:34

Would the 3" pile in move negate overwach from the secondary target? If so, that would be awesomesauce!

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Logan Frost
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Fight Phase   Tue May 02 2017, 15:37

Is it does.
You can charge a weak shooting unit and annex a badly positioned, strong shooting unit in the fight.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Fight Phase   Tue May 02 2017, 15:37

@Hen Tai, the tentacle guy wrote:
Would the 3" pile in move negate overwach from the secondary target? If so, that would be awesomesauce!

Im assuming yes.

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Logan Frost
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Fight Phase   Tue May 02 2017, 15:41

"This can be used to get within 1″ of other enemy units, if you’re cunning, dragging more foes into the melee and preventing them from shooting next turn, even if you didn’t charge them directly (giving them no chance to overwatch)."
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Skulnbonz
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Fight Phase   Tue May 02 2017, 15:43

Not a single thing in this that i dont like.

I forsee a lot of traps being set.

Now, to make me totally happy, i want to see the rules for our units...

I assume:
Wyches, Arcons, Talos, grotesques,  hellions, incubi all hit on 3+ (maybe reavers as well but i wouldnt count on it)
Succubi, lelith would be 2+
Kabalites, scourges, wracks, mandrakes, etc hit on 4+

If webway drop in is still a thing, these rules would make an arcon/succubi led Incubi unit a thing to be feared!

However, if they put Wyches at a 4+ to hit, i will blow a gasket!

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Hen Tai, the tentacle guy
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Fight Phase   Tue May 02 2017, 15:47

I was a bit skeptical when I saw that units can do a fallback move, but with the pile in, some clever scheming and a buch of cc you can in theory make a whole army's infantry inert in a single turn with this.

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Fight Phase   Tue May 02 2017, 16:00

@Skulnbonz wrote:
Not a single thing in this that i dont like.

I forsee a lot of traps being set.

Now, to make me totally happy, i want to see the rules for our units...

I assume:
Wyches, Arcons, Talos, grotesques,  hellions, incubi all hit on 3+ (maybe reavers as well but i wouldnt count on it)
Succubi, lelith would be 2+
Kabalites, scourges, wracks, mandrakes, etc hit on 4+

If webway drop in is still a thing, these rules would make an arcon/succubi led Incubi unit a thing to be feared!

However, if they put Wyches at a 4+ to hit, i will blow a gasket!

Mandrakes should be 3+ and be melee ordinated like in the fluff, not a sniping unit :/

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Imateria
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Fight Phase   Tue May 02 2017, 16:27

@amishprn86 wrote:
@Skulnbonz wrote:
Not a single thing in this that i dont like.

I forsee a lot of traps being set.

Now, to make me totally happy, i want to see the rules for our units...

I assume:
Wyches, Arcons, Talos, grotesques,  hellions, incubi all hit on 3+ (maybe reavers as well but i wouldnt count on it)
Succubi, lelith would be 2+
Kabalites, scourges, wracks, mandrakes, etc hit on 4+

If webway drop in is still a thing, these rules would make an arcon/succubi led Incubi unit a thing to be feared!

However, if they put Wyches at a 4+ to hit, i will blow a gasket!

Mandrakes should be 3+ and be melee ordinated like in the fluff, not a sniping unit :/
Agreed, I'd also say Haemonculi, Bloodbrides and Trueborn for the 3+, Drazhar for the 2+ and Cronos for 4+.

Glad to see the Sigmar pile in rules here as well, just goes to back up what I've said that tactically you'll want multiple squads all pulling off the charge in the same turn and hopefully pulling in as much of the opponent's units to the fight as possible.

Very interested to see what Strategems are. The use of a capitol S suggests it's a different mechanic to Command Points.
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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Fight Phase   Tue May 02 2017, 16:50

Command points and strategems have me worried because they more than anything will dictate how we build our forces. Wamna do something interesting and unique with allies? You're gonna lose strategem advantages or command points to do it. It's gonna be cookie cutter city.

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Fight Phase   Tue May 02 2017, 16:51

Close combat gets tactical, and so this forum will rejoice.

I imagine something like this... A tanky unit (grotesques) makes a multiple charge, and then lots of wyches join their assault from the flanks and pile in into additional targets. Your vehicles are already blocking the line of sight from other units, so if the engaged enemy falls back you'll stay pretty unharmed in their shooting phase and now closer to assault other units. Hordes like Orks, tyranids and daemons will use this method a lot. It's fluffy also.

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Anarchistscourge
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Fight Phase   Tue May 02 2017, 17:16

So far im liking this. as Eldur said its very fluffy for CC horde armies, so its look swarming nids will be back. I theorize that the only things that wont be a 3+ are scourge and kabalites. The fact they used 3 of the beastiest models available at the moment for their example of hitting on 2+ makes me think that CC named characters and the very occasional non named will be 2+ only.

I love the fact that they are making CC much more tactical. previously it was "does this unit want to be in combat and not get shot? Lets charge!" now deciding on exactly where to move models to not only get the 3" multi-charge, but also to support those units when the opponent disengages will be key.

Not really seeing how the game is getting any shorther with these rules however. Ok maybe shave a minute here or there not messing with intitiative steps, and merging run and moves. but for the most part, timings look to stay similar.

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Fight Phase   Tue May 02 2017, 17:37

I admit it sounds like CC is going to be a more involved, tactical affair, which I like. But that sort of goes against their whole thing about speeding up the game. I could see these movements being very important, and thus slowing the game down a bit as one carefully considers how to move their combatants in a game that has lots of CC, which 8th edition WILL have if they're allowing drop pod assaults, webway assaults, all vehicles assault vehicles, etc.

One thing I haven't seen mentioned anywhere yet is Tau. Making the game more assault focused would currently be bad for them, but with unlimited overwatch, if Tau retain their "support fire" ability allowing other nearby units to participate in overwatch against assaults not specifically targeting them, this could make Tau overwatch ridiculous as 6 units just continuously pour overwatch fire into wave after wave of assault units trying(and likely failing!) to make it into combat.
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Fight Phase   Tue May 02 2017, 17:42

That would make the game more asymmetrically balanced, thing I'd like very much, even though it's a slippery slope for the power creep.
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Fight Phase   Tue May 02 2017, 21:28

We have yet to see the weapon profiles.

Seeing that cover adds to the armor save and that bolter rounds "only" hit you like the punch/knife of a space marine in armor, my guess is that we'll no longer see hand to hand combat as a safer place compared to being in the line of fire (at least from DE perspective)

IF things are getting more balanced, I suppose that combat will reign in terms of killiness while shooting will be the most conservative but less effective choice. There will be exceptions, but when an army is deadly from afar, they fall easier in hand to hand... Or they should at least.

Dark Eldar, as the epitome of glass cannon armies, will be the faster and deadlier from mid to close quarters, but will be countered by baits and well deployed (and comanded) shooting lines and by charging with specialized h2h units.

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Fight Phase   Tue May 02 2017, 21:58

We're going to annihilate things. Our boats will be long range murder machines, our dudes will be tarpits, our monstrous creatures will annihilate entire units, our flyers will delete squads, and our bikes will carve people up.

Nothing is going to make up for the audacity of fluff headed our way though.

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Fight Phase   Tue May 02 2017, 22:48

These articles... I'm not sure if one new tidbit per day counts as a tease. It's like lifting your T-shirt to reveal an inch of belly and calling it a striptease!

The extra 3" seems kinda situational, but I guess it will encourage people to keep their units 6" apart to prevent shenanigans. It should also help if you only roll just enough to make the charge, in terms of getting more models in range to fight.

It will be funny on the odd occasion where you roll really high on your charge roll, and can suddenly reach the unit behind your target with pseudo consolidate!
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Fight Phase   Wed May 03 2017, 00:36

I'm glad I bought Wyches when they were tactically inferior! I am so glad melee is (hopefully) going to be viable.

I wonder how this will affect internal balance. Will there be a reason to divide up one's offense about 50/50 melee/shooting or will it be better to focus on being completely shooty or choppy?

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Fight Phase   Wed May 03 2017, 01:45

Hellions and wyches might not suck so bad.
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Fight Phase   Wed May 03 2017, 06:09

@Tounguekutter wrote:
I'm glad I bought Wyches when they were tactically inferior!  I am so glad melee is (hopefully) going to be viable.  

I wonder how this will affect internal balance.  Will there be a reason to divide up one's offense about 50/50 melee/shooting or will it be better to focus on being completely shooty or choppy?

Age of Sigmar has taught me that, eventually, everything is going to get charged. For instance I run 2x20 Spearmen and 2x20 Bowmen, and the bowmen have the ability to shoot twice once per game. Using the Spearmen to screen, I can double my shooting turn 1 and murder something very dangerous with 80 arrow shots, rerolling 1s. This allows me to kill a big nasty thing the first turn, and I blow the ability early so my bowmen, when inevitably charged, don't die having not shot twice. I can almost guarantee something similar will be in 40k, with bonuses given to units that have max people in them. So 20 Kabalites or 15 Wyches or whatnot will get rerolls of some sort or a bonus attack or something, and probably a one use per game ability between them.

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