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megatrons2nd
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Shooting Phase (now with Charge Phase)   Mon May 01, 2017 9:15 pm

I was hoping over watch would mean you would forgo your melee attacks. I think it would be fair to choose between shooting at the guys charging you, or swapping to melee weapons to prepare for receiving the charge.

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Shooting Phase (now with Charge Phase)   Mon May 01, 2017 10:55 pm

My 2 cents. Since Frankie (a dark eldar player) and Reece from ITC have play tested, I am still positive that DE will have their place. Despite the charge distance being the same, I can almost garuntee that DE will generally have a higher movement. Raiders and venoms might be reasonably durable given new rules. We might have a solid 3+ to hit in CC with some of our CC units. DE might even get bonus charge distance...a crap ton of unknowns honestly. Rumor has that CC will be brutal, but I guess we will have to wait and see.

At a quick glance, I agree that the changes sound bad for some classic DE things, but strategies change and we will adapt as always. Give it a little longer for some more information, and I think we will find a cool place for us to be.

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Shooting Phase (now with Charge Phase)   Mon May 01, 2017 11:26 pm

IDK why people are freaking out about the rules in 8th edition tbh. I think from everything we've seen, it's moving in a mostly positive direction.

What I'm terrified of is... what if they don't retcon the Gathering Storm?

What if Ynnari are still a thing?

Worse, what if Ynnari lay claim to all the Phoenix Lords and factions they allied with in the book?

My 1st Biel-Tan Armored Division is led by the Autarch and Director of the United Swordwind Academy Men's Chorus, Vice Brigadier Sir Allison "Iron Man" Concord. He's on a crusade of manifest destiny to cleanse the maiden worlds of unclean mon-keigh filth and drive back the barbaric Orkish hordes with his columns of grav-tanks and field artillery. His personal escort is a unit of Howling Banshees who he refers to affectionately as his "Angels of Mercy". It's bad enough I have to ignore the new fluff so he can still return triumphantly from his campaigns to a stately and noble craftworld and not a drifting collection of space debris inhabited by religious fanatics and lunatics, torn asunder by ridiculous deus-ex machina some hack put to paper after drinking their daily dose of Clorox. What happens when he can no longer be graced by the arrival of Jain-Zar on the battlefield? What happens when Howling Banshees are no longer Craftworld units but belong solely to that brain-aneurysm-made-real Ynnari? What happens when the Swordwind is entirely corrupted by the enigmatic mental disorder that is Yvraine's following?

I really don't want to have to repaint all these grav-tanks.

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Shooting Phase (now with Charge Phase)   Mon May 01, 2017 11:34 pm

@TeenageAngst wrote:
IDK why people are freaking out about the rules in 8th edition tbh. I think from everything we've seen, it's moving in a mostly positive direction.

What I'm terrified of is... what if they don't retcon the Gathering Storm?

What if Ynnari are still a thing?

Worse, what if Ynnari lay claim to all the Phoenix Lords and factions they allied with in the book?

My 1st Biel-Tan Armored Division is led by the Autarch and Director of the United Swordwind Academy Men's Chorus, Vice Brigadier Sir Allison "Iron Man" Concord. He's on a crusade of manifest destiny to cleanse the maiden worlds of unclean mon-keigh filth and drive back the barbaric Orkish hordes with his columns of grav-tanks and field artillery. His personal escort is a unit of Howling Banshees who he refers to affectionately as his "Angels of Mercy". It's bad enough I have to ignore the new fluff so he can still return triumphantly from his campaigns to a stately and noble craftworld and not a drifting collection of space debris inhabited by religious fanatics and lunatics, torn asunder by ridiculous deus-ex machina some hack put to paper after drinking their daily dose of Clorox. What happens when he can no longer be graced by the arrival of Jain-Zar on the battlefield? What happens when Howling Banshees are no longer Craftworld units but belong solely to that brain-aneurysm-made-real Ynnari? What happens when the Swordwind is entirely corrupted by the enigmatic mental disorder that is Yvraine's following?

I really don't want to have to repaint all these grav-tanks.

Clearly, you give up and become a corsair and say screw the rules, I have green hair.

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Shooting Phase (now with Charge Phase)   Mon May 01, 2017 11:42 pm

If I wanted to play Corsairs I would have given up on Dark Eldar long, long ago.

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Shooting Phase (now with Charge Phase)   Tue May 02, 2017 12:27 am

I like Corsairs actually, I cant wait to play them in 8th tbh.

I put a stop on them for harlequins but now I might start them back up again if FW has the rules out at the start.

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Shooting Phase (now with Charge Phase)   Tue May 02, 2017 12:38 am

I like Corsairs too, but Sir Allison is no shiftless, duplicitous, larcenous pirate.

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Shooting Phase (now with Charge Phase)   Tue May 02, 2017 1:06 am

I'm so stoked right now. Less expensive rules content, more believable cover and heavy weapons, and the cover bonus is gonna be a HUGE nerf for all 2+ saves since we can guarantee no 1+ armour. My biggest concern is how psykers can ID now with their special wounds. All we have are allies to defend and the crucible... i hope crucible of malediction is more effective, since it's always been our anti psyker tool. Maybe make it not one use only or somethong. I know thats off topic but the shooting and charge phase sound good.
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Shooting Phase (now with Charge Phase)   Tue May 02, 2017 1:33 am

@CombatDrugs4Life wrote:
I'm so stoked right now.  Less expensive rules content, more believable cover and heavy weapons, and the cover bonus is gonna be a HUGE nerf for all 2+ saves since we can guarantee no 1+ armour.  My biggest concern is how psykers can ID now with their special wounds.  All we have are allies to defend and the crucible... i hope crucible of malediction is more effective, since it's always been our anti psyker tool.  Maybe make it not one use only or somethong.  I know thats off topic but the shooting and charge  phase sound good.

We also have the helm of spite, which will hopefully be re-envision to be more useful.
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Shooting Phase (now with Charge Phase)   Tue May 02, 2017 1:51 am

Yes..  we could do with some new anyi psyker ish since that seems like where the balance has shifted so far.  Dark lances are of course going to be way more valid ( too bad they all got hacked up into blasters tho) and hopefully the same goes for (infantry) splinter cannons and shredders.  Some kind of DE exclusive rule that focuses on the suffering of a wounded enemy for buffs/debuffs would also be nice, since most of our weapons are designed for pain and suffering more than outright killing.  For example if being hit by a splinter weapon (just hit) reduced a model or units movement value, that would be a great tactical advantage for dark eldar and balance weaker weapons to have other effects. Actually a rule like that would make more sense with a weapon like the shredder, which shoots a snare. If the unit is hit, and tries to move during their next turn they take additional hits from the net.
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Shooting Phase (now with Charge Phase)   Tue May 02, 2017 3:18 am

@Imateria wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:
@mrmagoo wrote:
Wyches,  

I have been told that there are items that can be taken in AOS that prevents units from leaving cobat.   Hopefully we can give a model or 2 Shardnet and Impaler and this will prevent units from leaving Combat.    

Here is to wishful thinking.

That would seem to be a fluffy and logical thing for shardnets to do. So no chance of that happening!

Got to say, there's very little I've seen of 8e so far that makes me think DE will even be viable, let alone competitive. I hope I'm wrong but I'm not optimistic.
Given that we've seen nothing of the Dark Eldar's rules I don't think you're remotely in a position to judge that.

Unless DE use a different game system to the rest of 40K then I'm going to assume that the movement, shooting, charging, psychic and vehicle rules will apply to us and I've seen little, if anything, that seems to be positive for DE out of what has been revealed so far.

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Shooting Phase (now with Charge Phase)   Tue May 02, 2017 3:26 am

@TeenageAngst wrote:

What I'm terrified of is... what if they don't retcon the Gathering Storm?

What if Ynnari are still a thing?

Worse, what if Ynnari lay claim to all the Phoenix Lords and factions they allied with in the book?

They wont and have not retconned Gathering storm - see the videos of guilliman making new marines

Ynnari are definitely still a thing - see the 40k web site.

Ynnari claiming all the factions - nope - the DE are a divided people as are the CWE... heck, even the harlequins are these days!

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Shooting Phase (now with Charge Phase)   Tue May 02, 2017 3:32 am

I'm not saying they're going to claim the factions, but will the Swordwind be entirely Ynnari now? What about the Cult of Strife? What about Biel-Tan? What about the Phoenix Lords?

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Shooting Phase (now with Charge Phase)   Tue May 02, 2017 5:33 am

@Count Adhemar wrote:
Got to say, there's very little I've seen of 8e so far that makes me think DE will even be viable, let alone competitive. I hope I'm wrong but I'm not optimistic.

My thoughts exactly.

Our codex or whatever will have to be amazing to over come the rules released thus far.
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Shooting Phase (now with Charge Phase)   Tue May 02, 2017 5:46 am

I am still very much opptimistic for 8th edition. Yes with out current units these new rule announcements look bad. But considering that these new rules have been extensively tested by 40k gamers of all types (frontline gamining did some testing for christs sake!) I'm pretty sure it will be well balanced. Also you can take a unit, put the new rules against it and say its rubbish or great. Thats looking at a unit in a vacuum and is like doing a who would win. You have to consider the rest of the army that can support that unit or vice versa. 10 wyches are probably always going to die, but that doesnt mean there not drawing attention away from other units, preventing other units from firing and generally being a support unit.

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Shooting Phase (now with Charge Phase)   Tue May 02, 2017 6:06 am

My problem is that we've been shown the general rules of the game and in order for DE to be competitive, they would need to have their own rules that pretty much ignore the general rules. Anyone actually think that's going to happen?

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Shooting Phase (now with Charge Phase)   Tue May 02, 2017 7:26 am

What makes you say that it is all bad?

From they way I see it our tactics must adapt, but it definetly is not all bad.

Everything gets a t value (if we keep our splinter weapon poison this is a massive boost). Most waepons could hurt our boats anyway so little change there but now we might actually be able to hurt enemy vehicles with something other than lances.
Everything gets a movement value and we can safely assume our movement will be higher then the average.

We can strike first when we charge (so we will not have those stupid grenade problems with units like incubi etc anymore)
Armour and cover saves stack which means that weak armour + cover actually can give us a good save, while for space marines it barely makes a difference unless you shoot at them with medium heavy weapons which we do not have that many and darklight will probably still blast trough most saves anyway.
The new way to hit for melee and ranged might make it easier for units like wyches to actually harm something that can fight as well as they do. But it is a bit of a two edged sword. Hopefully their special weapons will give them the edge in combat.

The hit and run for everyone hits us quite hard I completely agree.



Good:
So I would say the movement and vehicle rules are actually quite nice for us.

Few changes:
The shooting and charging rules will be about even.

The bad:
The moving from combat rules are horrible for us.

Need more info:
The psyker rules I do not know, they can be horrible or good, depending on the powers. The advantage is that it becomes less something the enemy can count on, before they could just take a warp battery so they would have a good psyker that was unstoppable, now it is less reliable I think.

The use of keywords is probably going to be large boon for dark eldar players and a big penalty for the mixed eldar players, we do not have that much boosts, so we might lose a little but not that much, other armies are often a lot more reliant on supporting each other with special rules and psyker powers to get insane deathstar shenenigans. Most pure armies will benefit from this.
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Shooting Phase (now with Charge Phase)   Tue May 02, 2017 7:55 am

@|Meavar wrote:
Good:
So I would say the movement and vehicle rules are actually quite nice for us.

We've not yet seen the Mv stats for any of our units but unless they are significantly higher than Marines (at least 8") then I think we're going to be worse off as the difference in Mv will not be anywhere near enough to guarantee getting the charge off.

Without knowing the effect of poison on vehicles I don't think we can say that these changes are going to be good. If vehicles are not immune then our shooting will have changed (as opposed to improved) in that we will potentially be more effective against vehicles but less effective against everything else due to improved armour saves and (probably) zero save mod on splinter weapons.

Quote :
Few changes:
The shooting and charging rules will be about even.

Having removed Initiative and added a Movement stat, to keep the random 2d6" charge distance for everyone is utter crap. If you're going to have a Movement stat then let it actually matter!

Quote :
The bad:
The moving from combat rules are horrible for us.

Agreed. I really can't see any plus side for us on that idiotic rule.

Quote :
Need more info:
The psyker rules I do not know, they can be horrible or good, depending on the powers. The advantage is that it becomes less something the enemy can count on, before they could just take a warp battery so they would have a good psyker that was unstoppable, now it is less reliable I think.

Agree. Wait and see.

Quote :
The use of keywords is probably going to be large boon for dark eldar players and a big penalty for the mixed eldar players, we do not have that much boosts, so we might lose a little but not that much, other armies are often a lot more reliant on supporting each other with special rules and psyker powers to get insane deathstar shenenigans. Most pure armies will benefit from this.

Key words could be good for us or they could be terrible. If, for example, the Vehicle Key Word includes anything along the lines of "immune to poison" then we're shafted (again).

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Shooting Phase (now with Charge Phase)   Tue May 02, 2017 8:56 am

@Anarchistscourge wrote:
. 10 wyches are probably always going to die, but that doesnt mean there not drawing attention away from other units, preventing other units from firing and generally being a support unit.

Though you are not wrong, i have to ask: WHY?

Why does the Dark Eldar have to have units that we KNOW are going to die, but hey, they may just annoy your opponent a bit before they are removed from the tabletop.

Do marines have that issue? Necrons? Eldar?
I don't hear Tyranid players complaining that their troops "are going to die anyway" but they may take a few wyches with them before they go.

We are so beaten down, we have come to expect to get the short end of the stick in these situations.

10 stock orks vs 10 stock wyches. Who wins that fight? Not sure? Close fight?
Oh, and orks are 40 points cheaper!

So, for just once I was hoping the release of 8th, with all the changes may have shed a light of hope on us, but so far I am not impressed.
I will wait patiently to see how awesome the fight phase is, as they promised us it would be, and i HOPE that i come back here later and say "Sweet! All is good!"
But I wouldnt bet on it.

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Shooting Phase (now with Charge Phase)   Tue May 02, 2017 9:20 am

@Skulnbonz wrote:
@Anarchistscourge wrote:
. 10 wyches are probably always going to die, but that doesnt mean there not drawing attention away from other units, preventing other units from firing and generally being a support unit.

Though you are not wrong, i have to ask: WHY?

Why does the Dark Eldar have to have units that we KNOW are going to die, but hey, they may just annoy your opponent a bit before they are removed from the tabletop.

Do marines have that issue? Necrons? Eldar?
I don't hear Tyranid players complaining that their troops "are going to die anyway" but they may take a few wyches with them before they go.

We are so beaten down, we have come to expect to get the short end of the stick in these situations.

10 stock orks vs 10 stock wyches. Who wins that fight?  Not sure? Close fight?
Oh, and orks are 40 points cheaper!  

So, for just once I was hoping the release of 8th, with all the changes may have shed a light of hope on us, but so far I am not impressed.
I will wait patiently to see how awesome the fight phase is, as they promised us it would be, and i HOPE that i come back here later and say "Sweet! All is good!"
But I wouldnt bet on it.

CSM, Cultist
Nids, T-gants
Orls, Grenchin
IG, Guardsman/Conscripts
Etc..

Many armys has a cheap throw away, but Wychs ARE NOT THAT UNIT, and imo DE/Eldar/Harlequins SHOULDNT have a throw away unit at all. Same for SM.

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Shooting Phase (now with Charge Phase)   Tue May 02, 2017 9:53 am

@amishprn86 wrote:
@Skulnbonz wrote:
@Anarchistscourge wrote:
. 10 wyches are probably always going to die, but that doesnt mean there not drawing attention away from other units, preventing other units from firing and generally being a support unit.

Though you are not wrong, i have to ask: WHY?

Why does the Dark Eldar have to have units that we KNOW are going to die, but hey, they may just annoy your opponent a bit before they are removed from the tabletop.

Do marines have that issue? Necrons? Eldar?
I don't hear Tyranid players complaining that their troops "are going to die anyway" but they may take a few wyches with them before they go.

We are so beaten down, we have come to expect to get the short end of the stick in these situations.

10 stock orks vs 10 stock wyches. Who wins that fight?  Not sure? Close fight?
Oh, and orks are 40 points cheaper!  

So, for just once I was hoping the release of 8th, with all the changes may have shed a light of hope on us, but so far I am not impressed.
I will wait patiently to see how awesome the fight phase is, as they promised us it would be, and i HOPE that i come back here later and say "Sweet! All is good!"
But I wouldnt bet on it.

CSM, Cultist
Nids, T-gants
Orls, Grenchin
IG, Guardsman/Conscripts
Etc..

Many armys has a cheap throw away, but Wychs ARE NOT THAT UNIT, and imo DE/Eldar/Harlequins SHOULDNT have a throw away unit at all. Same for SM.
Wyches and Kabalites should be throwaway, they're vat grown FFS. Dark Eldar should be the ultimate glass hammer army. We certainly need more of the hammer back but I'm OK with us keeping the glass outside of Coven units.
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Shooting Phase (now with Charge Phase)   Tue May 02, 2017 10:22 am

@Count Adhemar wrote:
My problem is that we've been shown the general rules of the game and in order for DE to be competitive, they would need to have their own rules that pretty much ignore the general rules. Anyone actually think that's going to happen?
Movement, sure our footsloggers are only going to get an extra inch or so but that doesn't really matter, if your foot slogging the army you're doing it wrong to start with. Our vehicles should be the fastest things in the game, anything less than 12" movement on Raiders, Venoms and Ravagers, compared to the 8 or 9" I would expect on Rhinos and Land Raiders, is going to be insulting.

Our Dark Lances may actually be good at anti-tank again (I fully expect them to be S8, AP-3, D D6 and who knows what Lance is going to do now), and the Ravager will no longer get penalised down to 2 guns when moving more than 6".

Heavy weapons being -1 for To Hit rolls instead of a flat 6 is a boost to anyone Infantry carrying Dark Lances.

No scatter means Scourge are going to always Deep Strike where they want, no stupid misshap to worry about or being left out of Melta range (admitedly we've yet to see how Melta works but I would be surprised if there isn't a bonus to being in half range still).

Instant Death is almost certainly done away with, an excellent buff to our HQ choices who are worried about being insta-gibbed by S6 spam currently.

Chargers always strike first, a good buff for Incubi and Grotesques who no longer have to worry about charging through terrain.

Our basic troops actually get a save now! I'll take the 5 or 6+ we'll get against bolters or Shurican or Gauss or Pulse or even Splinter in 8th than the complete nothing we have in 7th.

Cover looks awesome. It's split into two catagories with hard cover boosting our saves (4+Kabalites, 2+ Incubi!) and soft cover being a BS penalty (I wouldn't be surprised if Night Shields give out a flat -1 to anyone targeting them). Raiders hiding behind ruins could be really hard to shift.

Our vehicles will be better against light and mid strength weapons thanks to having more wounds and an armour save. I tend to lose Venoms to bolters more than anything but it'll be much harder for that to happen now and with no vehicle damage table we wont have to worry about how easy we are to one shot.

The Withdraw mechanic I think is going to force a change of tactics more than anything. You can't afford to throw a single Wych or Incubi unit against an enemy unit but an assault army is going to want to get into combat with multiple enemy units to shut down large swathes of their shooting. The only reason you'd keep around 1 or 2 CC units now is for late game mopping up where you've either lost or the oponent may not have the shooting to dedicate against them after Withdrawing.

Sure, infinite Overwatch and the random 2D6 charge range is bad, but so far thats the only thing about 8th I don't like, and it's not going to hurt us specifically as it'll hurt all armies, and as long as some form of Fleet is kept then we'll have an advantage over plenty of other assualt units.
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Shooting Phase (now with Charge Phase)   Tue May 02, 2017 10:36 am

Most of the above is pure guesswork or wishlisting. If it is mostly true then we may only be effected by the edition change the same as most other armies. But we were a lower/bottom tier army before. Maintaining the status quo means we are still lower/bottom tier. Yay for us!

I will wait and see what the full rules say, both for the game in general and the DE in particular but I have yet to see anything that leads me to believe we're going to be competitive.

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Shooting Phase (now with Charge Phase)   Tue May 02, 2017 11:04 am

Fight phase is up, talk on it at the other topic.

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Shooting Phase (now with Charge Phase)   Tue May 02, 2017 11:39 am

@Count Adhemar wrote:
Most of the above is pure guesswork or wishlisting. If it is mostly true then we may only be effected by the edition change the same as most other armies. But we were a lower/bottom tier army before. Maintaining the status quo means we are still lower/bottom tier. Yay for us!

I will wait and see what the full rules say, both for the game in general and the DE in particular but I have yet to see anything that leads me to believe we're going to be competitive.

I guess it depends more than ever on who is going to make our rules. DE are fringe cases in many aspects that need to work around an established ruleset.

Given all the rulechanges, a redesign (at least a minor one) is inevitable. The question is if the ones who are in charge really have a strong vision for our army. If we get the 7th edition treatment again, they basically kill us at a whole.

In 5th edition there was a clear vision how to make use of the ruleset to make something that is very different, but still balanced. But at the time we were the new hotness, a semi-new faction with lots of new models. I'm sceptical if we get that treatment ever again.

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