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The Red King
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Shooting Phase (now with Charge Phase)   Mon May 01 2017, 15:45

Everything there is bad.

Still random distances, endless overwatch, and we already know they can just back up and shoot you again... so... yay?

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krayd
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Shooting Phase (now with Charge Phase)   Mon May 01 2017, 15:57

Perhaps one of the playtesters thought to give wyches their 4+ invul starting at the charge phase, so that they'll get it during overwatch. After all, it has been what people have been clamouring for since overwatch was put back into the game.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Shooting Phase (now with Charge Phase)   Mon May 01 2017, 16:03

Well. Im still hopeful for tomorrow, its the fighting phase, thats the last chance melee units/armies have, hopefully there will be some dang good modifiers/rules.

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The Red King
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Shooting Phase (now with Charge Phase)   Mon May 01 2017, 16:09

My guess is they are trying to push people to play 40k and sigmar by making the assault phase minimal to shooting. That way if you want your assault fix (to be effective) you have to go buy a whole new army for age of sigmar and if you want to shoot you play age of ultramarines.

I swear I'm still cautiously excited for this release but I'm becoming more cautious and less excited with every day.

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Draco
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Shooting Phase (now with Charge Phase)   Mon May 01 2017, 16:13

@amishprn86 wrote:
Well. Im still hopeful for tomorrow, its the fighting phase, thats the last chance melee units/armies have, hopefully there will be some dang good modifiers/rules.

I'm hopeful too. I doubt they would tout around saying CC would be viable again and just give us a 1" charge boost.
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krayd
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Shooting Phase (now with Charge Phase)   Mon May 01 2017, 17:12

If they bring back the ability to wipe a unit in cc, and consolidate into another nearby one, then I'll be pretty happy.
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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Shooting Phase (now with Charge Phase)   Mon May 01 2017, 18:46

The 1" and you made your charge is the first thing I have not liked.

I think its going to lead to all sorts of arguments despite how simple it could be worked out.

I would have preferred a Move +d6 for charge range myself

Taking overwatch from everything is not new and now its a fixed 6 to hit. The issue stems from multiple overwatch chances if you fail a charge - no more soaking it with a long charge with a maybe result

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Skulnbonz
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Shooting Phase (now with Charge Phase)   Mon May 01 2017, 19:22

@krayd wrote:
If they bring back the ability to wipe a unit in cc, and consolidate into another nearby one, then I'll be pretty happy.

This will not help really. You charge a unit, wipe it, then overrun into another. They back up, and you get shot in the face.

Take our Wyches.
They charge a unit of marines, eat overwatch (and i assume the 4++ will not be in effect until actualy engaged because, well, Gee Dubs.) so lets say 8 out of 10 make it. They tie combat (if they are lucky).
marines go, back up, and another unit mows them down.

I cannot forsee ANY circumstance where our wyches will be OK with these changes. The multiple overwatch = SUCKS for wyches, the not staying locked in combat = SUCKS for wyches.
The only value Wyches had was that they were a tarpit in hand to hand... now, they lost even that.

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Shooting Phase (now with Charge Phase)   Mon May 01 2017, 19:33

If we assume that these are the base rules, then we should be left to believe that Individual units will have things to modify this. I would hope fleet would still do something, and that specialized assault troops would get modifiers like banshees getting +3 inches to the roll, hellions and jump-pack marines getting move +d6. You can generate a lot of variety in charging with these base rules and unit special rules.
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Shooting Phase (now with Charge Phase)   Mon May 01 2017, 19:37

Quote :
I cannot forsee ANY circumstance where our wyches will be OK with these changes. The multiple overwatch = SUCKS for wyches, the not staying locked in combat = SUCKS for wyches.
The only value Wyches had was that they were a tarpit in hand to hand... now, they lost even that.

I still have hope that Wyches Shardnet will not be a crappy reroll of S3 atack and actually will be used, well, to capture someone.

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Shooting Phase (now with Charge Phase)   Mon May 01 2017, 19:39

@Skulnbonz wrote:
Take our Wyches.
They charge a unit of marines, eat overwatch (and i assume the 4++ will not be in effect until actualy engaged because, well, Gee Dubs.) so lets say 8 out of 10 make it. They tie combat (if they are lucky).
marines go, back up, and another unit mows them down.

I cannot forsee ANY circumstance where our wyches will be OK with these changes. The multiple overwatch = SUCKS for wyches, the not staying locked in combat = SUCKS for wyches.
The only value Wyches had was that they were a tarpit in hand to hand... now, they lost even that.

This assumes we have the same rules as written. What if having a shard-net stops a unit from running for example. We have no Idea what the new rules for specific units are gong to be. I would hope and assume that for every change that occurs in the new rules those changes have been taken into account in all the units in the game.
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Shooting Phase (now with Charge Phase)   Mon May 01 2017, 19:44

@Skulnbonz wrote:
@krayd wrote:
If they bring back the ability to wipe a unit in cc, and consolidate into another nearby one, then I'll be pretty happy.

This will not help really. You charge a unit, wipe it, then overrun into another. They back up, and you get shot in the face.

Take our Wyches.
They charge a unit of marines, eat overwatch (and i assume the 4++ will not be in effect until actualy engaged because, well, Gee Dubs.) so lets say 8 out of 10 make it. They tie combat (if they are lucky).
marines go, back up, and another unit mows them down.

I cannot forsee ANY circumstance where our wyches will be OK with these changes. The multiple overwatch = SUCKS for wyches, the not staying locked in combat = SUCKS for wyches.
The only value Wyches had was that they were a tarpit in hand to hand... now, they lost even that.

If you're playing DE correctly, you should be charging multiple units and/or making it difficult for your opponent to pick which targets to shoot at, for fear of what they aren't shooting at.

In the above example, you plow through unit 1, connect with a unit 2, forcing it to fall back... which prevents that unit from shooting while the opponent was counting on unit 2 to be able to shoot because his original plan was to have unit 1 fall back. Meanwhile, unit 3 is being hit by another assault so they're no help, and unit 4 is a heavy weapons team that has to decide whether or not to waste heavy weapons on some wyches, or shoot at the incoming splinter boat.

Sure, if my army was composed of just that one unit of wyches, then I'd be in trouble. In any case, we don't know what *any* of the unit special rules are, and how they interact or counteract any of the base rules (hell, at this point, we don't even know all of the base rules).
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Skulnbonz
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Shooting Phase (now with Charge Phase)   Mon May 01 2017, 20:06

@krayd wrote:


If you're playing DE correctly, you should be charging multiple units and/or making it difficult for your opponent to pick which targets to shoot at, for fear of what they aren't shooting at.


I guess I don't know how to play Dark Eldar correctly.
I understand the "unit that falls back" cannot shoot part. I got it. But do you think your opponent would even care because guess what.. That unit would not be shooting anyway. By backing up, they did two things that benefit them.
1. They exposed your unit to fire from other sources
2. They ensured not even a single model of theirs will die in HTH during their turn against your unit.

Yet the claim that it is evened out by the fact they cant shoot (which they couldn't anyway! they were engaged!) is given out as proof that it is not a bad thing for wyches... well, I gotta say I don't follow that logic.

Not sure how Dark Eldar is played "correctly" but I will PREDICT that anytime you or your opponent are engaged in Hand to Hand with a unit that will either kill or tie up a unit they don't want dead or engaged, they will back them out even if they don't plan on shooting the enemy with a different unit, simply to prevent models being removed.

So the thought process that by forcing a unit to fall back out of combat, preventing them from shooting somehow throws a wrench in the overall strategy of your opponent is... well, lets be polite and say "Flawed".

But, that is just my opinion, and not worth the time it took to type this :-)

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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Shooting Phase (now with Charge Phase)   Mon May 01 2017, 20:39

Nothing released so far makes CC viable.
Quite the opposite actually.

Marines are the big winners, 2+ in cover.
Splinter fire will only kill half as many as now.
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Logan Frost
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Shooting Phase (now with Charge Phase)   Mon May 01 2017, 20:47

@Skulnbonz do you have some inside informations nobody knows yet?
You speak as if you already read the whole new ruleset and all the new 'codexes'.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Shooting Phase (now with Charge Phase)   Mon May 01 2017, 20:55

Dont forget, tomorrow is "fight phase" and we havent seen Keywords yet or command points/army rules etc.. etc...

We are literally only seeing the minimum for each phase.

If it is true and the rule book is 12-14pgs, we have seen 4-5 paragraphs of rules out of what? 50+ from the BRB and 0 key words or army rules. We've seen 3-5% of the rules (Assuming based on little info we have).

It doesnt look good from this point of view so far, but we need to wait and see all angles Smile

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Shooting Phase (now with Charge Phase)   Mon May 01 2017, 21:07

Okay first of all I'll start by saying, yes this is GW and we as Dark Eldar Players should expect the worst but hope for the best.

Second, we aren't even seeing the entire base rules with these reveals, we are only seeing small parts of them so we can't really assess anything at this point.

Third, we haven't seen the rules in part or in full for wyches so we can't really assess how they will interact in the game and even if we did see a complete datasheet on the wyches with all their rules explained we would only be seeing them in a vacuum without seeing the rest of our army and how things might interact.
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Shooting Phase (now with Charge Phase)   Mon May 01 2017, 21:11

... if your opponent is pulling a squad of marines out of a fight with wyches in order to shoot the wyches off the board then I think the wyches have done their job two fold ... Not only did they keep one squad from shooting and possibly forcing it into a worse position opening it up to something far worse then strength three attacks but they also kept another squad or two from firing at higher priority targets ... Cause honestly if I were the Marine player ... I would keep them in cc, why? Cause the Marines (without special rules) will win every time, higher strength better survivability and so on ... Not shooting with one unit and targeting anything else over the wyches or backing up and losing an entire units actions and then wasting another's to shoot the wyches off the table that would more then likely die to my first squad in close combat anyway, I would take leaving those Marines in combat every time, it makes no tactical sense, as of now without knowing all the rules and special rules, to pull those Marines out of combat and shoot at them when those bolt guns would literally be better spent shooting at anything else, like the raider skimming over to an objective full of splinter rifles that are slightly more scary then a wych with a knife ... I'd be a really bad player if a unit of wyches scared me enough to waist two or more units on to get rid of ... Incubi or Grotesque ... Different story ... But not wyches ... So I don't see why the Charge phase is seen as bad any tactical archon would be leaping for joy if a unit of wyches dies to keep a heavy weapons team from doing much of anything for two turns at a minimum while the raiders and venoms sweep a bit more safely up the battlefield​ dishing out death and not worrying about that heavy weapons team... honestly I like the way this is set up ... It could lead to cc traps and actual unit cohesion amongst the true kin
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Shooting Phase (now with Charge Phase)   Mon May 01 2017, 21:14

Casually keeping up with the rules updates, the pistol thing seems GOOD, the fallback out of combat part seems on the surface... BAD.
But I've also read of assaulting out of transports, such as drop pods? God knows the fallback out of combat rule may be required to even up games vs mass Drop Pod Assaulting Space Wolves/Blood Angels etc.
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Shooting Phase (now with Charge Phase)   Mon May 01 2017, 21:18

Also ... If the opponent keeps backing units out of combat simply because they don't want them dead and then not bothering to shoot the unit that is perfectly positioned to assault them again next turn might as well just take that unit off the board because they will never get to use it again except for overwatch ... Though it isn't clear if the unit​ that fell back even gets to overwatch​ if they lose all their other actions for falling back ...
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Skulnbonz
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Shooting Phase (now with Charge Phase)   Mon May 01 2017, 21:28

@Logan Frost wrote:
@Skulnbonz do you have some inside informations nobody knows yet?
You speak as if you already read the whole new ruleset and all the new 'codexes'.

No. Not at all. Simply pointing out an opposing viewpoint that all is not peaches and cream from the rules that we have seen so far. In fact, from APPEARANCES (and lets face it, DE's history with GW) it looks like this new ruleset is WORSE for us rather than better.

Will it stay that way? i hope not.
But the way it stands now, Our Incubi got better, our hellions and wyches got worse. No two ways around it. If special rules or wargear circumvent the issue, great! But we can only go off what info we have now, and know to be true.


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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Shooting Phase (now with Charge Phase)   Mon May 01 2017, 21:42

Wyches,  

I have been told that there are items that can be taken in AOS that prevents units from leaving cobat.   Hopefully we can give a model or 2 Shardnet and Impaler and this will prevent units from leaving Combat.    

Here is to wishful thinking.
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Shooting Phase (now with Charge Phase)   Mon May 01 2017, 22:31

@mrmagoo wrote:
Wyches,  

I have been told that there are items that can be taken in AOS that prevents units from leaving cobat.   Hopefully we can give a model or 2 Shardnet and Impaler and this will prevent units from leaving Combat.    

Here is to wishful thinking.

That would seem to be a fluffy and logical thing for shardnets to do. So no chance of that happening!

Got to say, there's very little I've seen of 8e so far that makes me think DE will even be viable, let alone competitive. I hope I'm wrong but I'm not optimistic.

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Shooting Phase (now with Charge Phase)   Tue May 02 2017, 00:08

I've been really liking the direction so far, but these charge phase rules are a let-down.

2d6 random charge range made sense when everyone moved 6", but now that units have unique movement stats, why would you not use them? Granted doubling movement might be too much but why not move + d6?

Hit modifiers are back, increasing the granularity in the game... but overwatch only goes off on a flat 6? Why? If it too used modifiers presumably you'd be able to find extra modifiers to make it harder, like smoke or whatever, making it a bit more tactical. Only for th shooting phase I guess.

Infinite overwatch? Ugh. I hope flamers have to roll that 6 to hit, or there a going to be units that just can't be engaged. I really hope that there are ways to suppress overwatch. A new role for assault grenades perhaps, now that chargers always go first?

Oh well, I guess it wouldn't be 40k without a couple of bizarro rules.
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - Shooting Phase (now with Charge Phase)   Tue May 02 2017, 00:44

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@mrmagoo wrote:
Wyches,  

I have been told that there are items that can be taken in AOS that prevents units from leaving cobat.   Hopefully we can give a model or 2 Shardnet and Impaler and this will prevent units from leaving Combat.    

Here is to wishful thinking.

That would seem to be a fluffy and logical thing for shardnets to do. So no chance of that happening!

Got to say, there's very little I've seen of 8e so far that makes me think DE will even be viable, let alone competitive. I hope I'm wrong but I'm not optimistic.
Given that we've seen nothing of the Dark Eldar's rules I don't think you're remotely in a position to judge that.

That said, I'm not a fan of todays reveal. 2D6 charge range is still not good, I would have prefered 6+D6 (I considered M+D6 but some units will have a big M stat, I don't think we wont Thunderwolves to have a threat range all the way across the table without the help of Wulfen, or with for that matter.) though finishing within 1" of your target is a good change at least. Infinite overwatch is dumb, frankly I was hoping that mechanic would be done for given you can withdraw from combat now.
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