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 8e - The new stat-line

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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - The new stat-line   Wed Apr 26 2017, 17:07

They DID say that it was their intention to make melee great again, so maybe longer move stats are part of that.

But the realist in me wouldn't be surprised to see wyches get the same move stat as space marines, because GW has historically been stupid, and that would be stupid. On top of that, the guys from frontline gaming were apparently involved in the discussion of formulating rules, and they're some space marine fanboys(despite Reece having his "Footdar" army). I don't think any of them are into DE either.

To be clear, I DO think GW needed outside help with rules, and I think the guys from FLG are probably WAAAAAAAAAY better than nothing. It's just that in their OWN organization, rules changes that Reece believes in are tempered by public opinion, since everyone gets to vote. In a private rules discussion situation, that can't happen.

That said, Reece normally gets votes to go the way he wants because he owns the website that the discussions take place on, and therefore has free reign to create entire articles arguing his own position in a very visible way, while dissenters are relegated to the much less visible comments section. Sometimes voters surprise him(and me!) though.

It's like there is a second game involved in influencing the development of rules going on for 40k in real life, and imperial propaganda is a real thing here, too. Twisted Evil


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CurstAlchemist
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - The new stat-line   Wed Apr 26 2017, 17:11

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/04/26/warhammer-40000-weapons/

For those that want to read the article with the weapon reveal stats.
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The Red King
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - The new stat-line   Wed Apr 26 2017, 17:12

Also movement is being discussed tomorrow.

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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - The new stat-line   Wed Apr 26 2017, 17:26

@CurstAlchemist wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/04/26/warhammer-40000-weapons/

For those that want to read the article with the weapon reveal stats.

Flamers got better against single models, and WAY worse against units huddled together to try to stay out of LoS. They'll no longer be able to influence your opponent's positioning, causing them to have to choose between risking getting an entire unit torched(but staying in cover), or stretching a unit out, but sacrificing LoS or a better cover save to avoid template weapons that could auto-hit the whole squad.

I don't see this as a positive. I think it makes the game a good deal more shallow, and replaces a number that used to be determined by strategy and positioning with a random d6 roll.

If they do this for ALL template-based weapons, there will be nothing to stop people from huddling masses off models all together behind a single LoS blocking terrain feature, which destroys the tactical depth of 40k gameplay itself, and negatively effects the give and take of list building(if you don't have to bother considering crowd control/templates when building your list).

I don't know how I would have suggested they handle it, but this wouldn't have been it. Perhaps some sort of multiplier based on the number of models in the unit, and/or how many models were within X inches of the firer.
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Bardicnonsense
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - The new stat-line   Wed Apr 26 2017, 17:58

On a personal note, I'm not sure why templates had to go. Sure, it streamlined the game a bit to remove them, but on a list of things cluttering up the pace of play I'd stick flame templates way down at the bottom. As @BetrayTheWorld said, it removes a lot of tactical depth for what? Unnecessary convenience?
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - The new stat-line   Wed Apr 26 2017, 18:05

@Sarkesian wrote:
I don't understand why some people are upset that Marines have a 6 inch movement attribute. They had that last edition too. And the edition before. I expect Eldar will have a 7 while Dark Eldar will be more in line with 8 or possibly 9.

That said, I'm glad initiative is gone. I've quite enjoyed the "You choose a unit, I choose a unit" mechanic in AoS. Adding the fact that chargers go first will just sweeten the deal.

Having the same movement is fine when Initiative determines the order in which you strike. When you strike first by charging, movement is vital. Having 1" more than a Space Marine simply isn't good enough.

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - The new stat-line   Wed Apr 26 2017, 18:14

The lack of an initiative stat is depressing. I guess my archon will just wit around picking his nose whilst a bunch of terminators rev up their thunderhammers and ponderously bring them to bear, smashing him to bits.

As we all know, the correct procedure is for him to immediately lash out with his bread-knife, fail to do anything, and then be smashed to bits. Wink


That aside, I look forward to DE being rewarded with a quarter-of-an-inch of extra movement over marines.
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - The new stat-line   Wed Apr 26 2017, 19:23

@Bardicnonsense wrote:
On a personal note, I'm not sure why templates had to go.

It eliminates an extra item that was required in order to play. With free rules all you need is a Start Collecting box and you're ready to get started, instead of, 'Oh, you'll also need a codex, and a set of templates, and a scatter die, and this, and that...'

Not to mention that someone always keeps stealing the small blast. Possibly using them as coasters? It is a theory!
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Skulnbonz
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - The new stat-line   Wed Apr 26 2017, 19:43

For all GW's Posturing that DarK Eldar are the "fastest" army there is, if I dont see something like:

Kabalites = 8"
Wyches = 10"
Beastpacks = 14"

i'm gonna be pretty pissed.

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - The new stat-line   Wed Apr 26 2017, 20:22

@The Shredder wrote:
The lack of an initiative stat is depressing. I guess my archon will just wit around picking his nose whilst a bunch of terminators rev up their thunderhammers and ponderously bring them to bear, smashing him to bits.

As we all know, the correct procedure is for him to immediately lash out with his bread-knife, fail to do anything, and then be smashed to bits. Wink


That aside, I look forward to DE being rewarded with a quarter-of-an-inch of extra movement over marines.

Its alternating Combats, charging units attack 1st for that turn, so better movement spd will help get charges off 1st.

With that said there still could be keywords for "strike first" and "strike last".
We 'll have to wait and see.

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - The new stat-line   Wed Apr 26 2017, 20:41

Hmm ... No strength cap? ... And with every space Marines army running a sergeant in a squad ... If my archon get even 8" movement then Soul-stone archon with a husk blade is gonna be running around the field killing sergeants gaining​ strength​ and finally turning to a land raider and laughing like crazy cause he can flick it and send it flying (wouldn't happen of course not enough turns unless Soul-stone get D3 added strength instead of the one)
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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - The new stat-line   Wed Apr 26 2017, 20:46

I hope Slaaneshi chariots have the statblocks from AoS. 20 attacks plz

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - The new stat-line   Wed Apr 26 2017, 21:08

@Archon_91 wrote:
Hmm ... No strength cap? ... And with every space Marines army running a sergeant in a squad ... If my archon get even 8" movement then Soul-stone archon with a husk blade is gonna be running around the field killing sergeants gaining​ strength​ and finally turning to a land raider and laughing like crazy cause he can flick it and send it flying (wouldn't happen of course not enough turns unless Soul-stone get D3 added strength instead of the one)

if that stays the same, if soul shard is the same, if challenges are still there etc.. Surprised

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - The new stat-line   Wed Apr 26 2017, 21:34

@amishprn86 wrote:

Its alternating Combats, charging units attack 1st for that turn, so better movement spd will help get charges off 1st.

Yeah, but it still means that any time you don't get the charge (or the enemy charges into an ongoing combat, or into a unit that just finished combat or whatever) then the enemy goes second.

Given that DE would otherwise usually be going first even if they were on the receiving end of a charge, this seems like a significant downgrade. Not just that, but a downgrade in one of the few perks we had left.

@amishprn86 wrote:

With that said there still could be keywords for "strike first" and "strike last".

I wouldn't bank on that. 40k seems to be going the way of Age of Sigmar - which removed those terms.
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - The new stat-line   Wed Apr 26 2017, 22:20

Interesting that the lascannon's save modifier is only -3. Presumably that means most of the old AP2 standbys will be at that level, and likely AP3 will convert to -2, with AP4 around -1. Power armour and terminators will get saves against almost everything, barring super-heavy weapons. But as a trade off we get saves against bolters and flamers.

I wonder how invulnerable saves will play out, and whether Feel No Pain will still be a thing (I doubt it!)?
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - The new stat-line   Wed Apr 26 2017, 22:40

I could see FNP turning into a +1 armor save modifier.. but I hope not, as that would suck for (non-Talos/Cronos) Coven units.
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - The new stat-line   Wed Apr 26 2017, 23:23

@The Shredder wrote:
@amishprn86 wrote:

Its alternating Combats, charging units attack 1st for that turn, so better movement spd will help get charges off 1st.

Yeah, but it still means that any time you don't get the charge (or the enemy charges into an ongoing combat, or into a unit that just finished combat or whatever) then the enemy goes second.

Given that DE would otherwise usually be going first even if they were on the receiving end of a charge, this seems like a significant downgrade. Not just that, but a downgrade in one of the few perks we had left.

@amishprn86 wrote:

With that said there still could be keywords for "strike first" and "strike last".

I wouldn't bank on that. 40k seems to be going the way of Age of Sigmar - which removed those terms.


No they said it will have key words

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - The new stat-line   Thu Apr 27 2017, 00:37

@Creeping Darkness wrote:
Interesting that the lascannon's save modifier is only -3. Presumably that means most of the old AP2 standbys will be at that level, and likely AP3 will convert to -2, with AP4 around -1. Power armour and terminators will get saves against almost everything, barring super-heavy weapons. But as a trade off we get saves against bolters and flamers.

I wonder how invulnerable saves will play out, and whether Feel No Pain will still be a thing (I doubt it!)?
I can see Invulnerables being an unmodifiable save.
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - The new stat-line   Thu Apr 27 2017, 00:38

@The Shredder wrote:
@amishprn86 wrote:

Its alternating Combats, charging units attack 1st for that turn, so better movement spd will help get charges off 1st.

Yeah, but it still means that any time you don't get the charge (or the enemy charges into an ongoing combat, or into a unit that just finished combat or whatever) then the enemy goes second.

Given that DE would otherwise usually be going first even if they were on the receiving end of a charge, this seems like a significant downgrade. Not just that, but a downgrade in one of the few perks we had left.

@amishprn86 wrote:

With that said there still could be keywords for "strike first" and "strike last".

I wouldn't bank on that. 40k seems to be going the way of Age of Sigmar - which removed those terms.
It wouldn't surprise me if our army specific Command Points would let us strike first when charged.
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - The new stat-line   Thu Apr 27 2017, 00:56

Something I have disliked about 40k since 3rd ed is the close combat system: however skilled of a fighter you may be, you cannot stop your opponent from hitting you unless you can kill them before they swing. It's like Rock Em Sock Em Robots.

When I tried Age of Sigmar, one of the (many) things I really disliked about it was how it increased the sense that combatants were just standing still taking turns clubbing each other (which I guess is fine if you wear power armor). Without any interaction between purported skill levels, it did not feel like they were fighting.

I'm not going to make any judgements about the new edition until i see the complete rules, but... I have concerns.

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - The new stat-line   Thu Apr 27 2017, 02:40

I dislike the change to flamers. My first army was Salamanders, so I spent a lot of time learning how to optimize template placement. 3.5 hits on average is...woefully insufficient to make a flamer useful in my opinion.
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - The new stat-line   Thu Apr 27 2017, 02:43

@Jimsolo wrote:
I dislike the change to flamers.  My first army was Salamanders, so I spent a lot of time learning how to optimize template placement.  3.5 hits on average is...woefully insufficient to make a flamer useful in my opinion.

Templates being gone is a good thing tho IMO.

1) Players spent more time making sure 2" away due to them
2) Arguments from how many could be hit
3) Another item you need
4) Takes up more time than a D6 dice roll
5) Not new player friendly
6) Multi levels always made it harder to play with

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - The new stat-line   Thu Apr 27 2017, 03:19

@Skulnbonz wrote:
For all GW's Posturing that DarK Eldar are the "fastest" army there is, if I dont see something like:

Kabalites = 8"
Wyches = 10"
Beastpacks = 14"

i'm gonna be pretty pissed.

Prepare to be pissed...

I am expecting...

IG/most infantry - 5"
SM/just about all elder - 6"
Harlequins/Wyches/maybe banshees plus things like hormagants - 7 or possibly 8"
Beasts - 12"

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PostSubject: Re: 8e - The new stat-line   Thu Apr 27 2017, 05:23

I think Massaen is probably correct, unfortunately. I'm expecting the same thing, which is to be disappointed.

As I said earlier, I wouldn't be at all surprised if they made wyches have the same 6" move as space marines.

To be honest, I would be pretty happy with 8" movement for wyches, I think. Particularly if the assault rules are similar to Shadow War:Armageddon, where you just double your movement to determine charge distance. When you're dealing with a multiplier like that, an extra 2 inches is actually fairly meaningful, since it represents an extra 4 inches when running or charging.
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PostSubject: Re: 8e - The new stat-line   Thu Apr 27 2017, 09:18

I wouldn't mind if Space Marines and Kabalites both move 6, so long as both are worth their points all things considered.  However, the athleticism aspect of our army flavor was mentioned in their new description on the website, so I'm hoping that things will be more like this:

Guardsman - 5
Marine - 6
Craftworld coward- 6
Kabalite - 7
Wych - 8

The taking turns in melee thing irks me as well, and I am afraid that is how things will be done because of how things are done in sigmar.  But who knows, maybe there will be something like a sweeping advance roll to determine who goes first each round using each side's movement characteristic.  Or even simply using the movement characteristic in place of initiative wouldn't be hard.  Unwieldy weapons debuff your characteristic when calculating when a model strikes.  But that's probably beyond GW's puny mon-keigh minds. I remain overall optimistic but I reserve the right to gripe about the particulars.

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