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 First look at Corsairs - Help required

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Anarchistscourge
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PostSubject: First look at Corsairs - Help required   Fri Apr 21 2017, 10:29

Hi All,

So after looking at the project logs and seeing all the amazing Corsair conversions and paint jobs, i finally decided to have a look and build a quick list.
I do not have the IA book for corsairs so all my info on units comes from battlescribe.
These would be a passion project which is quite some time off but i just wanted to get some advice / help on a list. I have no idea what works well so just thought i would delve in and take a punt.

++ CAD (1495pts) ++

+ HQ (225pts) +
········Corsair Baron (85pts) [Corsair Jet Pack, Rage, Shimmershield, Void Sabre, Wild Psyker (level 1)]

········Corsair Prince (140pts) [Forceshield, Reaper of the Outer Dark, Void Sabre, Wild Psyker (Mastery Level 1)]
············Cloud Dancer [Twin-linked Lasblaster]

+ Elites (450pts) +
········Corsair Voidstorm Band (240pts) [Corsair Jet Packs, Rage]
············Corsair Felarch [Blaster, Close Combat Weapon, Venom Blade]
············7x Corsair Felarch [Close Combat Weapon, Venom Blade, Lasblaster]

········Corsair Wasp Squadron (105pts) [Corsair Void Burners, 2x Eldar Missile Launcher]

········Corsair Wasp Squadron (105pts) [Corsair Void Burners, 2x Eldar Missile Launcher]

+ Troops (350pts) +
········Corsair Cloud Dancer Band (100pts)
············Cloud Dancer Felarch [Brace of Pistols, Scatter Laser]
············2x Cloud Dancer w/ Scatter Laser

········Corsair Cloud Dancer Band (150pts) [Rage]
············3x Cloud Dancer Felarch [Close Combat Weapon, Scatter Laser, Venom Blade]

········Corsair Cloud Dancer Band (100pts)
············Cloud Dancer Felarch [Brace of Pistols, Scatter Laser]
············2x Cloud Dancer w/ Scatter Laser

+ Fast Attack (160pts) +
········Corsair Hornet Squadron (80pts)
············Corsair Hornet [2x Pulse Laser]

········Corsair Hornet Squadron (80pts)
············Corsair Hornet [2x Pulse Laser]

+ Heavy Support (310pts) +
········Corsair Balestrike Band (155pts) [Corsair Jet Packs]
············Corsair Felarch [Dark Lance]
············4x Corsair w/ Dark Lance

········Corsair Balestrike Band (155pts) [Corsair Jet Packs]
············Corsair Felarch [Dark Lance]
············4x Corsair w/ Dark Lance

If i ran this then the Prince would join the Felarch CLoud Dancer squad and looking to get rampage for all those lovely S5 AP3 rending attacks. The Baron would join the voidstorm band and provide a needed Ld if they decide to break and 5++ save.

As i said i've never looked at corsairs before and have no units or attachment to units, these is more theorycrafting for a future project. Please advise as best you can or if your feeling nice provide a better list.
Thanks in advance
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Von Snabel
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PostSubject: Re: First look at Corsairs - Help required   Fri Apr 21 2017, 11:03

If you want some more special rules and ability to kitt specific dudes for some more precise tasks you should use their special Force Org. The Coirsair Fleet Raiding party . (At the bottom in BattleScribe) There you choose a "Leader", such as a Prince, and then multiple Cotories. And those Cotories can have some free rulse like Tank Hunters Preffered Enemy(tank & Walker) or 1d6 scatter when DS and reroll Reserv Rolls.
Note that Im also in the theory-stage when it comes to Corsairs but i feel like this is the way to go. (But do take anyone elses point above mine)
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PostSubject: Re: First look at Corsairs - Help required   Fri Apr 21 2017, 11:09

Yeah i saw that detachment and wanted to stay clear for a first list. Do you know if the coterie rules are mutually exclusive? Or can you take muliples of the same. The ones that stand out are the sky dancer and the one that grants reroll 1's in combat when in a challenge.

I did actually build a 2k list with the coterie detachment but thought i would keep to a CAD when asking for advice.
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PostSubject: Re: First look at Corsairs - Help required   Fri Apr 21 2017, 11:51

I don't think they're exclusive. Atleast I can't remember ever reading such a thing. I should probably stop replying since I most likley know less than you it seems. But, if you're thinking about doing a Coterie list, why ask for advice for a CAD ? It has different rules and thus different ways you can play, CAD probably being inferior since Coterie have Ob. sec for their troops in addition to other rules.

I'd recomend the Splintermind Pod from last March where they go into some of the nifty things i the codex if you havent listened to it yet.

Now i'll leave you in the hands of more experienced people.
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PostSubject: Re: First look at Corsairs - Help required   Fri Apr 21 2017, 11:57

I was unsure on the Obsec for the coterie which is why i went CAD. Obviously a coterie build will vary against a CAD but this was more asking help on synergies and units.
Thanks for your replies nonetheless, it doesnt matter where advice comes from, its always helpful.
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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: First look at Corsairs - Help required   Fri Apr 21 2017, 15:32

Don't bother with the raiding fleet - it gets top heavy in the HQ department to quickly for too little benefit.

Do you play ITC? This will change the list potentially

I have a few more thoughts - will provide them when I am not mobile and can type quickly!

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PostSubject: Re: First look at Corsairs - Help required   Fri Apr 21 2017, 16:13

Do you not feel that the benefits from the coterie rules outweigh the need for the compulsory low cost (ish) Barons?

I do not play ITC, or get involved in the tournament scene much at all. That is something i will be looking to change.

If it helps at all i have just read your sysnopsis over on Objective Secured of the Units, but having never played them is difficult to decide what playstyle to go with (deep strike heavy, Reaver venom spam, cloud dancer spam etc).

Any help you can give would be muchly appreciated.
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PostSubject: Re: First look at Corsairs - Help required   Mon Apr 24 2017, 03:07

Cheers mate! I actually just went 4/0/0 at an event with pure corsairs yesterday!

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PostSubject: Re: First look at Corsairs - Help required   Mon Apr 24 2017, 07:00

Ok....

The biggest issue with the raiding fleet detachment is the fact you have to add a 70-90 point HQ per coterie who actually brings very little to the army on the whole. Often, replacing the baron with another whole unit is possible!

Running a Fleet with a couple of coteries plus the command coterie means you can easily expect to spend 350 points on 3 models just to meet the HQ needs. The barons add (IMO) zero to the unit they join due to an extreme lack of options in the way you can arm them. Some people keep talking about adding shimmer shields but honestly, that's throwing more points at a problem that doesn't exist.

If the Baron had a bike (which you want for T4) then he has to join a bike unit. Where is that bike unit? Typically it should be at extreme range and using JSJ to avoid taking much fire at all. The Shimmershield is at this point redundant and the baron cant take the same weapons to add to the fire.

If you run the baron with a jet pack then he is only T3 and the units he joins will be similarly squishy. You are then giving up an extra Kp when the unit dies (and it will!) and again, the options he had don't tend to add more to the unit that he joins.

The coterie benefits only work on infantry, jet and jetbikes - and most of the benefits would be best on vehicles. Sure, sky burners sounds good - but then you are playing down on points until at least T2 when you start rolling for reserves and apart from drop melta, what else needs to drop to begin with. I would go so far as to say that based on my games using the coteries, they are so underwhelming in effect that combined with the HQ taxes, its why I have run mine as CADs in all 3 events so far.

More than pretty much any other army, MSU is the way corsairs excel and by removing barons, you get more units.

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PostSubject: Re: First look at Corsairs - Help required   Mon Apr 24 2017, 07:21

Here are my thoughts on the units you listed so far...

@Anarchistscourge wrote:
········Corsair Baron (85pts) [Corsair Jet Pack, Rage, Shimmershield, Void Sabre, Wild Psyker (level 1)]

Psykers are fun in friendly games, but in a competitive event I would NEVER take a corsair psyker - the risks are simply to high. Despite an Ok profile, the void sabre is wasted with only S3 and he is so squishy you don't want him in combat to begin with. Personally, I would go with a venom blade if you want to keep him in the list but then again, I would ditch him entirely ass the 5++ he provides to the unit he was joining is not going to keep them alive regardless.

@Anarchistscourge wrote:
········Corsair Prince (140pts) [Forceshield, Reaper of the Outer Dark, Void Sabre, Wild Psyker (Mastery Level 1)]
············Cloud Dancer [Twin-linked Lasblaster]

See above for my thoughts on the psyker. The void sabre is ok here but again, I prefer the cheaper venom blade to double down on the wounds. For his princely trait, I would go traveller thanks to the lack of vehicles in your list and to give greater flexability on the table. I also really rate Survivor to keep the prince alive longer. The Reaper trait is another one that looks good on paper until you realise corsairs just don't want to be in combat and reckless abandon further highlights this.

@Anarchistscourge wrote:
········Corsair Voidstorm Band (240pts) [Corsair Jet Packs, Rage]
············Corsair Felarch [Blaster, Close Combat Weapon, Venom Blade]
············7x Corsair Felarch  [Close Combat Weapon, Venom Blade, Lasblaster]

If you want a combat unit of corsairs, just go malevolents. Void storm is for pistol spam and when you do that - its not a competitive unit to take at all.

@Anarchistscourge wrote:
········Corsair Wasp Squadron (105pts) [Corsair Void Burners, 2x Eldar Missile Launcher]

········Corsair Wasp Squadron (105pts) [Corsair Void Burners, 2x Eldar Missile Launcher]

These don't need the void burners - they can outflank as it is and don't need to close on the target thanks to their weapon range. Personally, I would run them as a unit of 2 rather than 2x1. My pair regularly surprise people when they charge in and deliver a bunch of S5 hammer of wrath and destroy squads wholesale! I would also rather scatter lasers but that's because I run tanks to complete AT duties.

@Anarchistscourge wrote:
········Corsair Cloud Dancer Band (100pts)
············Cloud Dancer Felarch [Brace of Pistols, Scatter Laser]
············2x Cloud Dancer w/ Scatter Laser

You don't need the felarch

@Anarchistscourge wrote:
········Corsair Cloud Dancer Band (150pts) [Rage]
············3x Cloud Dancer Felarch [Close Combat Weapon, Scatter Laser, Venom Blade]

I would either go heavy weapons OR venom blades - this unit wants to be in combat but has huge range guns. That said, this unit of 3 plus the prince wont win any real combats they have to deal with and if its a little unit you need wasted - see my comments about wasps in assault!

@Anarchistscourge wrote:
········Corsair Cloud Dancer Band (100pts)
············Cloud Dancer Felarch [Brace of Pistols, Scatter Laser]
············2x Cloud Dancer w/ Scatter Laser

Another felarch you don't need. Just ditching the felarchs and venom blades plus the void burners on the wasps gets you 3 more scatbikes!

@Anarchistscourge wrote:
········Corsair Hornet Squadron (80pts)
············Corsair Hornet [2x Pulse Laser]

········Corsair Hornet Squadron (80pts)
············Corsair Hornet [2x Pulse Laser]

Hornets are amazing. I run 2x2 in most of my armies as I like the added reliability of 8 shots per unit but honestly, as they are - take them!

@Anarchistscourge wrote:
········Corsair Balestrike Band (155pts) [Corsair Jet Packs]
············Corsair Felarch [Dark Lance]
············4x Corsair w/ Dark Lance

········Corsair Balestrike Band (155pts) [Corsair Jet Packs]
············Corsair Felarch [Dark Lance]
············4x Corsair w/ Dark Lance

This is probably my least liked unit. Dark lances are horribly inefficient weapons and you have sunk 300+ points into them. Against 90% of the targets you will face, hornets do the exact same job with more shots at greater range with less threats back for less points. 4 Hornets is 10 points more than these 2 units but delivers twice as many S8, ap2 shots at a safer range!

If you feel like lance is a needed thing, (its really only going to be against land raiders, Spartans, monoliths etc as any other vehicle is likely to have weaker side armour which the extra shots the hornets get mean you have even chances of engaging) then you are better dropping 200 points on a warp hunter with kinetic shroud. This thing WILL kill things and can do it safely and effectively. Replacing a unit of the balestrikes with a warp hunter and the other with a 3rd hornet nets you just as many S8 shots as you have now AND the small blast D barrage which is probably the single best weapon that graces 7th ed battlefields.

I am not saying jet packs cant work - I am saying that balestrikes are just not efficient.

As you may have noticed, my thoughts are competitively themed - I like playing at tournaments and my choices for corsairs reflect this. Corsairs can work in a number of ways and if you like the aesthetics of a unit or have your own success with them that I have not, use them! Its YOUR army and you should build what you want - not what I think you should!

Regardless, if you have any other queries, happy to chat about them

Good luck!

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PostSubject: Re: First look at Corsairs - Help required   Mon Apr 24 2017, 07:40

Thanks a bunch massaen. This advice is pretty much what I was hoping for. Even though I don't play competently it's still good to know where better to put points
. The main reason for the felarchs is pretty much for the +1 Ld as it looks like corsairs really don't want to be running away. Part of the reason I didn't go tank heavy is FW is EXPENSIVE lol. The other part was so I had more infantry I could put my own conversion twist on.
Would you say the only real threat close combat unit are malevonts then?
Last question would be where do you stick your prince wheb you run the army?
Again thanks for all 5he advice
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PostSubject: Re: First look at Corsairs - Help required   Mon Apr 24 2017, 15:11

@Anarchistscourge wrote:
Thanks a bunch massaen. This advice is pretty much what I was hoping for. Even though I don't play competently it's still good to know where better to put points.

No worries mate! Happy to share my experiences and knowledge.

@Anarchistscourge wrote:
The main reason for the felarchs is pretty much for the +1 Ld as it looks like corsairs really don't want to be running away.

I can see that temptation - but with the prince on bike with this LD10 bubble, positioning is key to avoiding that LD8. Minimum unit sizes also mean that should you have a unit fail, you have less than 100 points running, not more.

@Anarchistscourge wrote:
Part of the reason I didn't go tank heavy is FW is EXPENSIVE lol. The other part was so I had more infantry I could put my own conversion twist on.

As an aussie, its cheaper for me to buy a FW warp hunter shipped than it is to buy a fire prism locally at GW! Its great to hear you want to spend the time making them cool though - its what they are all about! I would still seriously suggest a single warp hunter for competitive play. It kills knights, wraith knights, you name it.

@Anarchistscourge wrote:
Would you say the only real threat close combat unit are malevonts then?

Corsairs are not a combat army but I have had some success with malevolents. Again, very expensive for what they are but with 2 wounds, FNP, rage... they can do work. Running 5 with jet packs and deepstriking them can work or simply hold them out of LoS in your lines for when things get close. Remember they still have pistols so combined with reckless, they can cover surprising ground when they have to get out of dodge!

Wasps though are amazing for combat when you get to charge. Yesterday saw a single wasp charge unit of 6 GSC hybrids, destroy them on the charge. Kill a second unit of 6 by shooting and charging them then shoot a flying hive tyrant down! I love my chicken legs! Such a low cost versatile unit!

@Anarchistscourge wrote:
Last question would be where do you stick your prince wheb you run the army?

Mine tends to float in the middle of the army. One advantage of giving him traveller as his prince trait is he gains DS - so can be added to infantry who are deploying this way. With venom blade, haywire grenades and a shadowfield, he can curb or stall advances and is scary for some enemy in combat. I am also quite happy to deploy out of LoS and solo. He can stay mobile and lent help where needed. He is my back field defender of warp hunters most often!

@Anarchistscourge wrote:
Again thanks for all 5he advice

To easy mate! be sure to post pics as you start building and converting!

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PostSubject: Re: First look at Corsairs - Help required   Yesterday at 15:23

@massaen, completely missed the princes 12" bubble for regroup rerolls. I understand why removing the felarch's is better.

So taking another crack at 1,500pts after listening to advice. Hopefully this is more competitive (still playing in a casual setting.

++ CAD (Eldar: Corsairs) (1500pts) ++
+ HQ (140pts) +
········Corsair Prince (140pts) w/ Haywire Grenades, Shadowfield, Survivor of Endless Darkness, Venom Blade, Cloud Dancer [Twin-linked Lasblaster]

+ Elites (320pts) +
········Corsair Malevolent Band (180pts) w/ Corsair Jet Packs, 6x CCW and Pistols, 2x Venom Blade and Pistols

········Corsair Wasp Squadron (70pts) w/ 2x Scatter Laser

········Corsair Wasp Squadron (70pts) w/ 2x Scatter Laser

+ Troops (370pts) +
········Corsair Cloud Dancer (90pts) w/ 3x Scatter Laser

········Corsair Cloud Dancer (90pts) w/ 3x Scatter Laser

········Corsair Reavers (95pts) w/ Corsair Jet Packs, 3x Lasblaster, 2x Blaster

········Corsair Reaver (95pts) w/ Corsair Jet Packs, 3x Lasblaster, 2x Blaster

+ Fast Attack (460pts) +
········2x Corsair Hornets (160pts) w/ 2x Pulse Laser

········2x Corsair Hornet (160pts) w/ 2x Pulse Laser

········Corsair Nightwing (140pts) w/ Corsair Kinetic Shrouds,

+ Heavy Support (210pts) +
········Corsair Warp Hunter (210pts) w/ Corsair Kinetic Shroud, Shuriken Cannon

I know that i could replace the 2 reaver squads with 2 more cloud dancers and that the malevolent band are hyper expensive, but i like the idea of the reavers and for some reason always want at least 1 CC squad in my lists.
I really wanted to keep the void sabre on the prince but couldn't quite get it in and keep the haywire grenades, which i like as a means to strip the last HP of vehicles (15 pts really is unfair, as DE pay 5).
Obviously this will all change now that vehicles have T and W values instead of AV and HP, but oh well.

If i was to take this to 1850 i would add another Warp hunter and then double down on the wasps.

Be great to know what you think?
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PostSubject: Re: First look at Corsairs - Help required   Yesterday at 15:40

I like running Reavers myself - usually in units of 5 with 3 brace of pistols and a couple of fusion guns. Going las blasters and blasters is a solid choice though.

You can probably drop the kinetic on the nightwing if you want the void sabre, I always found that the second I said 2+ jink save, my opponents would not even bother to shoot at it

I also think ditching the shuriken cannon on the warp hunter is fine as its going to be a rare instance indeed that you actually fire them both in the same turn!

With the malevolents, yeah, the are expensive but can be situationally very solid assault forces.I might even suggest swapping the prince to the traveller trait so he can join and deep strike with them (as well as dropping a portal you can then use to evacuate from!)

I generally think adding Warp Hunters, Hornets and Wasps is never a bad thing!

That all said, who knows what 8th ed will bring!

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PostSubject: Re: First look at Corsairs - Help required   Yesterday at 15:51

I did consider the Traveller trait, and it wouldn't be too bad losing FNP and IWND especially with the 2+ shadowfield and a blob of 8 guys to look out sir to. My only probably is that if there DS then im looking at a turn 3 charge at the earliest and wont have the prince on the board turn 1.
Also completely missed stealth on the nightwing. Where does the 2+ jink come from.

If its part of its death from the skies flyer rules, we never play with that, and to be honest i haven't actually read it.

In your objective secured posts you said you were likely to field 2 squads of 3 hornets, how is this working out for you?
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PostSubject: Re: First look at Corsairs - Help required   Yesterday at 18:08

Night wing gets the basic 4+ jink, +1 for stealth, +1 for Agile - all part of its profile

Right now, I have not found I have needed 3 in a squadron... units of 2 are easy enough to move about and put enough shots down range

3 units of 2 - now there is some fire power!

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