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 How to use... Yvraine. Hmm.

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PsychicHobo
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PostSubject: How to use... Yvraine. Hmm.   Sun Mar 26 2017, 10:36

Yeah, I'm having trouble working out where best to use this lady. Her Eternal Warrior, Invul save and Instant Death weapon means she's sort of OK for challenges but I think Craftworld Eldar have characters who serve that role much better.

As a psyker the extra dice are handy, but... eh. On the whole, not really sure how to utilise her.
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BizarreShowbiz
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PostSubject: Re: How to use... Yvraine. Hmm.   Sun Mar 26 2017, 22:25

You can't. Competitively at least, she just sucks so much.

Its a shame though, her model is awesome.

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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: Re: How to use... Yvraine. Hmm.   Mon Mar 27 2017, 01:25

There... *is* a way to use her but it's weird. She's basically only good if you plan on doing the 40k equivalent of dive-comp. Because she can regenerate wounds and generates her own warp charges she can roll borderline suicidal amounts of dice on Sanctic spells and still be okay. Stuff her in with a Warlock Council doing the same thing and you'll be able to regenerate wounds (and boost her own psyker level) on a whim by killing your own Warlocks with perils checks by making them roll on Sanctic as well with fistfuls of dice. Make it a full-blown Seer Council and you have even more power, or some protection via Fortune and/or Invisibility. Throw in some Shadowseers and you have an unshootable unit that will merk anything in close combat it touches.

Is she worth 200 points? Hell no. But if you've ever wanted an excuse to throw 10 dice at Vortex of Doom carte-blanche this is your girl.

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PostSubject: Re: How to use... Yvraine. Hmm.   Tue Mar 28 2017, 06:06

I don't really understand why she is as expensive as 200 pts even now...

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BizarreShowbiz
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PostSubject: Re: How to use... Yvraine. Hmm.   Tue Mar 28 2017, 09:57

Becouse Im sure GW "dev" team does not have a jedi curve as Wizards of the Coast have and set points values randomly.

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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: How to use... Yvraine. Hmm.   Tue Mar 28 2017, 21:42

The problem is that the GW design team is completely dumbfounded by how psychic powers effect the power level of a model. They have no idea how to calculate it. That is why 2/3 of the triumverate sucks due to being overpriced.

Both the Yncarne and Yvraine are overpriced, I suspect due to them having access to psychic powers. The problem is that they limited both of them to only sanctic or revenant powers, and with such a limited pool of powers to choose from, them being psykers isn't that big of an advantage.

I think the Visarch is actually priced OK for what he brings to the table. He's similar to a phoenix lord, and priced around where a phoenix lord should be priced.

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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: Re: How to use... Yvraine. Hmm.   Tue Mar 28 2017, 23:18

The Yncarne is appropriately priced vs. 95% of GW's line. It just isn't 100 points undercosted like a WK.
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BetrayTheWorld
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PostSubject: Re: How to use... Yvraine. Hmm.   Wed Mar 29 2017, 04:24

@TeenageAngst wrote:
The Yncarne is appropriately priced vs. 95% of GW's line. It just isn't 100 points undercosted like a WK.

I mean, not really. You have to compare her to her peers:

Roboute Gilliman - Nuff said, but for those not paying attention: he's harder to kill than 2 wraithknights, buffs his entire army, is a melee beast with basically D strength rending hits, and gets SIX warlord traits that effect about a 27" area of the table. Only 75 points more than the Yncarne.

Imperial Knight - Harder to kill, able to start on the table, moves further, actually has powerful ranged weapons(as opposed to none), and is way better than the Yncarne in melee too, having a D-weapon. About 100 points more than the Yncarne.

Belisarius Cawl - Able to be taken without using a LoW slot, able to join an infantry unit for protection, but still T6 just like the Yncarne. Multiple special abilities, a master crafted power axe(ap2), a S10 assault D3 AP1 Master-Crafted Melta gun, FnP, and he auto-heals d3 wounds per turn. 75 points LESS than the Yncarne.

Saint Celestine - Hit & Run, Eternal Warrior, 5 wounds, a 2+/4++, orbital strike, S5 AP3 CC weapon with 6 attacks, and comes with 2 power sword/power armour bodyguards that keep respawning so long as Celestine is alive(who also generat 6 attacks). If Celestine dies, she comes back with full health and continues respawning bodyguards on a successful leadership test. These guys can attach to units for extra protection and luls. 75 points cheaper than the Yncarne.

C'Tan Shard of the Nightbringer - Doesn't take a LoW slot, higher strength, higher toughness, only 1 less wound with a better invuln save. Has strong ranged attack that ranges from S6 to Strength D based on a roll(as opposed to no ranged attack at all), and a built in psychic shriek that can't be failed to manifest, can't be denied, and heals the C'Tan if it causes at least 1 wound. 35 points cheaper than the Yncarne.

Riptides - For only slightly more than the Yncarne, you can get 2 stock riptides.

Stormsurge - Tons of firepower, all but immune to small arms fire for 85 more points than the Yncarne.

Be'lakor - Almost an identical statline, except Be'lakor has a better invuln save, armourbane and fleshbane, generates D3 extra warp charge on any turn an opponent failed a morale test, knows ALL of the telepathy discipline, is flying, and can start on the table for 75 more points than the Yncarne.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I could go on listing these all night. The point is, the Yncarne is definitely overpriced. I'd have rather had the Yncarne be 50-75 points more expensive and be awesome than be in this middle area where she's just not that useful for her price. For instance, if you made the Yncarne 325 points and just said she automatically knows all of the revenant powers, she'd be fine. As is, she's unreliable, overcosted, and has no ranged weapon.

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PostSubject: Re: How to use... Yvraine. Hmm.   Wed Mar 29 2017, 05:13

From what I've seen using it and comparing it to similar units, I disagree. But hey, god made all kinds.

What I do know is that if Yvraine were able to roll on other disciplines she might ALMOST be worth 200pts.

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PostSubject: Re: How to use... Yvraine. Hmm.   Wed Mar 29 2017, 09:03

@BetrayTheWorld wrote:
The problem is that the GW design team is completely dumbfounded by how psychic powers effect the power level of a model. They have no idea how to calculate it. That is why 2/3 of the triumverate sucks due to being overpriced.

Both the Yncarne and Yvraine are overpriced, I suspect due to them having access to psychic powers. The problem is that they limited both of them to only sanctic or revenant powers, and with such a limited pool of powers to choose from, them being psykers isn't that big of an advantage.

I think the Visarch is actually priced OK for what he brings to the table. He's similar to a phoenix lord, and priced around where a phoenix lord should be priced.

I agree with GW not knowing how to price Psyckers. Unless you are daemons. I think its over costed for sure.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: How to use... Yvraine. Hmm.   Wed Mar 29 2017, 09:24

I'm not sure it's just psykers that cause them problems as I can think of a couple of psykers who are seriously undercosted (Tigurius and Coteaz). I think the main problem is that GW simply don't play the same sort of games as the rest of us.

They don't think about power level of a unit relative to other units (see Yvraine vs Cawl/Celestine).

They don't think about how units can be abused but that's literally the first thing that a competitive player looks for when a new unit is released.

All they think about is what rules would be cool for this model to have.

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PostSubject: Re: How to use... Yvraine. Hmm.   Wed Mar 29 2017, 09:57

@Count Adhemar wrote:
I'm not sure it's just psykers that cause them problems as I can think of a couple of psykers who are seriously undercosted (Tigurius and Coteaz). I think the main problem is that GW simply don't play the same sort of games as the rest of us.

They don't think about power level of a unit relative to other units (see Yvraine vs Cawl/Celestine).

They don't think about how units can be abused but that's literally the first thing that a competitive player looks for when a new unit is released.

All they think about is what rules would be cool for this model to have.

They also let different people make up points cost of units, when you have 3-4 people making rules and each person has different reason for points adjustments, it never works out.

They also have strictly narrative players there too, they only talk about it on the warhammer tv battles all the time :/

A narrative player will see points values differently than a competitive player.

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PostSubject: Re: How to use... Yvraine. Hmm.   Wed Mar 29 2017, 10:59

Like for Celestine, they added armourbane on her because in some fluff picture/painting she was cleaving a tank in two. So the designers thought; 'Oh, does she have armourbane? -no. Let's give it to her...'

As god of dead Yncarne would be much more on par with e.g. Guilliman or Cawl/Celestine, if she/he would have a signature spell that could bring few eldar back from dead as long as the whole unit was not destroyed e.g. wc2 spell that could reanimate them for a turn or wc3 9" area buff spell giving everyone +1 wound.
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PostSubject: Re: How to use... Yvraine. Hmm.   Wed Mar 29 2017, 20:44

If Khymera die can Yvraine gain a wound back? I don't have my codex on hand.

For fun, I've been considering tossing her into a mass Khymera unit with Visarch. Sure, she will slow them down but, 12 5++ wounds aren't bad if you can alternate taking wounds on the two characters then bringing their wounds back up by letting the beasts die.
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PostSubject: Re: How to use... Yvraine. Hmm.   Thu Mar 30 2017, 04:01

They are faction DE and are thus Aeldari so yes, you can get wounds back from them.

Running a beast pack with 1 beast master (for taking challenges), the Visarch, Yvraine around 8 khymera then a few clawed fiends or razorwing flocks as well as a shadow seer is actually an ok assault unit. You can shuffle the wounds around thanks to the yvraine/visarch combo to minimise damage and when it charges its a significant threat to most units. The mask on the seer combos well with the visarchs sword and phantasm powers keep the unit safe at range as well as offering LD powers to use the mask and sword combo.

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PostSubject: Re: How to use... Yvraine. Hmm.   Thu Mar 30 2017, 06:57

That seems really solid, at a reasonable points cost. I've been working on a more casual shop list than the 1850 I can run. Lots less redundancy and I'll get to play with units I haven't before.

Have you tried adding in a farseer either on bike or foot? The units overall cost would be getting up there but, it could mean more buffs or another psychic attack.
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PostSubject: Re: How to use... Yvraine. Hmm.   Thu Mar 30 2017, 11:26

@WildCandy wrote:
Like for Celestine, they added armourbane on her because in some fluff picture/painting she was cleaving a tank in two. So the designers thought; 'Oh, does she have armourbane? -no. Let's give it to her...'

As god of dead Yncarne would be much more on par with e.g. Guilliman or Cawl/Celestine, if she/he would have a signature spell that could bring few eldar back from dead as long as the whole unit was not destroyed e.g. wc2 spell that could reanimate them for a turn or wc3 9" area buff spell giving everyone +1 wound.

Aww man that sounds like such a cool thing to have missed out on.

Why not give the Yncarne a bubble effect where Eldar basically get Reanimation Protocols within 7" (or 14") of her? And/or a Revenant discipline spell that can repopulate depleted Eldar squads.

Fluffy and useful.

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PostSubject: Re: How to use... Yvraine. Hmm.   Thu Mar 30 2017, 14:11

@Massaen I do not believe Beastmasters are characters anymore, which is a huge hit to the unit I think along with all of the other nerfs to all of the beasts.

I have not used her yet, but I feel Beasts or some sort of WWP unit coming in is probably the best. If you wanted to take advantage of her and the Visarch a 20 man Guardian blob with Warlock and a shadowseer for protection wouldnt be awful as you have lots of ablative wounds, Psychic protection and a couple psykers to be around to potentially boost the Yraine's level. The problem is now you have built your army around a so-so character with not much bang for your buck and probably isnt game changing.

If you are taking the Visarch and Yraine, you might as well take the Triumvirate right? Get fearless on units would be nice army wide.
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PostSubject: Re: How to use... Yvraine. Hmm.   Thu Mar 30 2017, 14:27

Bummer! You are right on the beast master. Been ages since I used mine

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PostSubject: Re: How to use... Yvraine. Hmm.   Thu Mar 30 2017, 14:29

I thought them being characters was one of those things that made them a bit over the top! We could pull some IG shenanigans and keep tying up strong ICs or characters while the beasts just munch on the units.
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PostSubject: Re: How to use... Yvraine. Hmm.   Fri Mar 31 2017, 14:07

Plus, you could chuck the Visarch in a mob of them and just overflow with extra attacks. Glorious. Sigh...

Anyways, understanding GW pointing issues is an impossible task. Ever since 5th Ed Nids they've clearly shown they have no idea how to point a Monstrous Creature - they either drastically overvalue or undervalue them.
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